MODULAR OR BUST!

quote:

Originally posted by Mark:

quote:

Originally posted by pantera2023:

What could have been a good thread has turned into nothing more than a session for everyone to pat each others on the back. Nothing technical here that's for sure....

LOL don't you hate when it does not stay on subject

Yeah, and you guys are adding to the dilemna!!

Including ME!!

couldn't resist, could you Mark?

George

quote:

Originally posted by restoman:
I made the decision to go modular. There are so many different year/block/head combinations, I don't know where to start. I was thinking of the Mach 1 DOHC. But I would like to bump up the HP and Torque to around 400. Has any one researched these options or installed one that can give me advise on what works the best for the Pantera?

Did you ever check out this site? You may want to check it out.
http://home.earthlink.net/~rlbpantera/

So what do you guys think of this little modular beast I picked up ? NO WAY will this fit in the Pantera. 680hp from the factory over the Ford counter in 1965. LOL

Ron, BITCHEN!

the cammer is absolutely on of Fords best engines ever. One of the world's best engines!

7 liters, naturally aspirated, I remember 650 bhp, but I won't quibble over a few bhp, it's damn close to 100 bhp per liter, that was in 1965, SOHC and only 2 valves per cylinder.

That beast looks like its laying in a trailer, why don't you just haul it to my house on your way to the SEMA show?

your friend on the DTBB, George

George I picked it up with another short block for 3800.00 its in the back of my rack body with a bunch of assorted ford parts. there were also chrysler hemi parts but I was in la la land when I seen this thing laying on it side in the guys shop I bought it from. it needs to be taken apart a run thru. cant even think of hwo can do that.

OMG!!! That is the rarest most valuable motor on the face of the planet. How much do you want for it??? Can I pick it up this afteernoon??

This is why I'm stuck on my 351 C build. I raced FE's all my life and never had these RPM, oiling and strength issues.

That motor is a museam piece since I think that the later 427sohc's had aluminum heads and this one has CI heads so I think its real early 65 or maybe the 64 one prep'd for Nascar then once Nascar banded hemi's it was used or sold else where. I have a friend who is the guru on these motors and thats his feeling. It's real clean inside but it has been run.

THAT IS COOL. IF that engine is soooo valuable (which it apears to be) would it be worthwile trying to find the car it came from. Together their value could go up tremendously.

Gary

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
So what do you guys think of this little modular beast I picked up ? NO WAY will this fit in the Pantera. 680hp from the factory over the Ford counter in 1965. LOL

Great find! Do it justice! (I say shoehorn it into your Pantera, I'll come over with the butter and lard.)

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Cyboman:
Great find! Do it justice! (I say shoehorn it into your Pantera, I'll come over with the butter and lard.)

Michael

I agree with you Micheal. IT would be the most awesome Pantera to have ever existed in the history of mankind. A truly historical event IMO.

Gary, it didn't "come from a car". They were sold as crate motors only. Ford never installed a cammer in a production vehicle. (650 bhp!)

George

Mike - I'm thinking of it but first problem is the bellhousing it dosent bolt up.

Comp2 - It did not come in a car it was sold only over the counter in 64 for Nascar and 65 it was the Funny Car engine.

Detom - I almost lost it and had to tell the guy I bought it from that its worth a LOT OF MONEY, he said I was honest with him and someone owed him money so it was left in a warehouse with many other FE parts and Chrylser Hemi.

AC, Was it ever used in a nascar?

Gary

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
Mike - I'm thinking of it but first problem is the bellhousing it dosent bolt up.

Comp2 - It did not come in a car it was sold only over the counter in 64 for Nascar and 65 it was the Funny Car engine.

Detom - I almost lost it and had to tell the guy I bought it from that its worth a LOT OF MONEY, he said I was honest with him and someone owed him money so it was left in a warehouse with many other FE parts and Chrylser Hemi.

A couple of years back, at a car show in Charlette, I saw the first mustang funny car that had a 427 SOHC, only it was missing the motor. They wanted 16 K for the car because THEY COULDN"T FIND A SOHC motor for it. That is how rare it is. It is more valuable than it's weight in gold.

Comp 2 - I have no record and there is no serial # as from what I can see justa casting #'s. I covered it and sat it in the corner of the barn. The other short block is brand new is cosmoline. The other intakes I sold most of them.
Detom - I have a friend up here in Florida Ny who has a 65 fastback that has XP-427 on the side and was an original Experimental Porduction car, but hes not parting with it. Valuable ? They had there moments ! The 10' timing chain didnt help those moments.
So my point is !
Look close at the MODULAR motor, its modeled after the SOHC. The FE series is a good motor. Believe me if I cant get this 351c build off the ground you'll see pics of this in the Pantera. I just cant bring myself to cutting up that car. A small block is what belongs in the Pantera.

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
A small block is what belongs in the Pantera.

I agree. I would want to decrease the weight back there if I could.

427 SOHC history for Gary:

In 1963 Ford announced the total performance program. Inside Ford this meant kick butt & win every type of racing there was at any cost. So in 1963 a Ford Galaxie powered by a 427 FE motor won NASCAR. For 1964 Chrysler fought back, introduced the 426 Hemi and kicked some Ford butt. Chrysler walked away with the NASCAR trophy for '64. After the '64 season Ford decided they needed a weapon to compete against the 426 Hemi and in about 3 months they developed the 427 SOHC (cammer), which is based upon the 427 FE side oiler short block. They dropped it in a '64 Galaxy and turned the fastest test laps at Daytona anybody had ever timed. Chrysler threatened to pull out of NASCAR if Ford was allowed to run the cammer, NASCAR responded by banning the cammer, it was never allowed to run in 1 NASCAR race. Ford then dropped the cammer into some Mustangs running in the A/FX class (factory experimental) and kicked butt in NHRA & AHRA drag racng instead.

Ron, that motor belongs in a stripped down & lowered '64 Galaxy 2 door. That would be too cool.

your friend on the DTBB, George

You go George !! and dont forget my favorite Comet ? Yes this is the basis for todays modular / Cammer that ford brought back. But let us not forget this monster is HHHHEEAAVY about 675lbs. Practical ? I think this is a museam piece. Realisticly what do I put this thing in ?
Oh George dont forget my favorite COMET also made this motor famous.

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
Comp 2 - I have no record and there is no serial # as from what I can see justa casting #'s. I covered it and sat it in the corner of the barn. The other short block is brand new is cosmoline. The other intakes I sold most of them.
Detom - I have a friend up here in Florida Ny who has a 65 fastback that has XP-427 on the side and was an original Experimental Porduction car, but hes not parting with it. Valuable ? They had there moments ! The 10' timing chain didnt help those moments.
So my point is !
Look close at the MODULAR motor, its modeled after the SOHC. The FE series is a good motor. Believe me if I cant get this 351c build off the ground you'll see pics of this in the Pantera. I just cant bring myself to cutting up that car. A small block is what belongs in the Pantera.

Actually Gary, the engine you have is probably worth more than your car. To the right people.

Detom - These engines are worth anywhere from 12 -25k depending on the condition. My car is worth 30k its a standard Pantera but I just bought it. So havent been able to sink my paws into it yet. I'm at a stand still with this Cleveland. To many tricks to get the to run high horse power and he blocks are weak. I'm thinking Windsor crate motor maybe just rebuild the cleveland as a stroker ??? Gotta get my act together. Maybe sell the 427sohc and really got tom town..........?

I didn't mean to put down the car at all, I am just saying these are ultra rare engines. I have a friend who knows one of the guys who was on that program at Ford. I will check with him to see what it is worth.
Yeah I know the standard Cleveland is kinda weak, right above the mains area, but I am sure that blocks like Dart and that australian place have got that all worked out. And they come in aluminum alloy too which means you can shave another 200 pounds off your car.
I know the 427 side oiler was a real strong motor because it was made to be a racer. You can get one of those in alloy too and it would weigh less than a cast iron small block. But then again that is real old school. Maybe one of those new modular motors?? Micheal was saying they are a ton of maoney if you want to get the one for the Ford GT, but the 302 modular crate is about 14K for 400 horse. I am sure it is pleanty strong.
Have you considered a super high winding rice motor?? Like that Honda that redlines at 9500 RPM?? Or how about a Honda v8 like they use in champ cars. Ford use to make a little tiny V10 that developed 750 horses at 16,000 RPM. I always wanted to get me one of those. Souynds like a buzz saw gone bezerk. It would scare the hell out of inocent bystanders and small children. Muwahahaha.
But getting back to reality, unless you are entering the 24 hours of LeMans, I am sure the Cleveland will be plenty strong. George knows how to build them to where they never ever break. He has built and help build hundreds and not a single one has ever broke. That is a convincing record if there ever was one.

No insult taken, George has given me mucho advice ! Thanks George, just all that I read has scared me a little. A good build is probabaly in the range of 10k when the smoke clears, I raced CJ's they reved to 7000 and made a lotta power and torque. I'm gonna stay with the Ford motors but that V10 sounded tempting.... LOL

quote:

George knows how to build them to where they never ever break. He has built and help build hundreds and not a single one has ever broke.

LOL.....................

HUNDREDS!?

NEVER EVER BREAK!?

EEKS!

DeTom is that how legends are made? oh hell, I'm in trouble now.

I'll let you in on a little secret, back in the '70s & '80s, most Cleveland builds were in the 350 to 450 bhp range. Some guys were busting engines even at 450 bhp, but I believe that could have been avoided with proper assembly. The advent of cheap stroker kits & roller cams have made it easy to get a Cleveland into the >500 bhp trouble zone. That's the reality. You can go there with a Cleveland, but the engine needs to be assembled carefully, smartly, with no cutting corners. A Clevor built upon a Dart or FRPP block would be good insurance for your motor investment.

the legendary engine builder on the DTBB, Smokey Pence

By the way Ron, I'd give my eye teeth AND a couple of other precious things to acquire a cammer motor. What a find. I would truly love to drop one in a '64 two door Galaxy fast back. drop 'er on the chassis, cut out the wheel well sheet metal NASCAR style, side pipes, a 4 speed top loader.

Its like a Deuce coupe with a flat head, it just belongs.

You see, as a kid, there was an older guy who had one just like that. He bought a used Galaxy and dropped in a Cammer he had bought from Ford for about $2500 (about 2/3 the price of a new car back then). His cammer engine could totally overwhelm the Galaxy's chassis, he stripped teeth off his 9" ring gear & busted carriers, twisted axles, smoked clutches, he could get rubber in any gear at any speed at will. He even twisted his leaf springs into an "s" shape. (afterwards he invested in a good set of traction bars). he bought the least expensive tires he could find because they didn't last very long. He had a fiberglass bubble on his hood, hiding the engine. Jaws would drop when he opened 'er up and there sat this big, menacing SOHC 427. The one engine that trumps every other muscle car engine ever made. Imagine pulling up alongside a 'Vette with a 427 under the hood in a Galaxy and leaving him at the light like his engine stalled! The cammer with a single 4 barrel had 200 more bhp than a 427 'Vette! That's 50% more bhp than the 'Vette which sported over 400 bhp itself.

This fellow would drive by my street in his other car (Mustang) and pick me up, saying "hey George, hop in and come take a look at my car, tell me what I've broken now". LOL... I think he was actually showing off, you know, he was proud his motor could break parts so easily. He never complained about buying parts to fix his car.

The '60s were crazy times.

Wasn't this post originally about installing a mod motor in a Pantera. Oh well. Hey Mark! Me Bad!

reminiscing on the DTBB, George

Exactly George I'm leaning towards a Windsor Block assembly with Cleveland heads. Clevor ? I love those Boss 302's. A real high reving motor, I bought one when I waas 21 and it had a fully grooved crank with Trans am pistons had to run it on Cam 2 114. Any way I have to mention MODULAR to make it official ! LOL I guess we need to start a new thread "CLEVOR " I would like to elaborate on that thought ! GEORGE ! Hint Hint Hint

quote:

the legendary engine builder on the DTBB, Smokey Pence

I knew you reminded me of someone. It was the fact your profile pic doesn't have your customary three sided hat. BUt Smokey was a chevy guy wasn't he? You are more like Carrol Shelby.

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
Exactly George I'm leaning towards a Windsor Block assembly with Cleveland heads. Clevor ? I love those Boss 302's. A real high reving motor, I bought one when I waas 21 and it had a fully grooved crank with Trans am pistons had to run it on Cam 2 114. Any way I have to mention MODULAR to make it official ! LOL I guess we need to start a new thread "CLEVOR " I would like to elaborate on that thought ! GEORGE ! Hint Hint Hint

Ron, I just got off the phone with my friend and he is definetly interested in buying the SOHC from you. He will need more info and if it is ok with you I would like to put you two in touch with each other. If you are interested could you please emaile me at Detomaso72@yahoo.com ??

Detom - Its tucked away in the corner of the barn and I want to hold on to it until I decide what to do with it.

Ron

OK, Ron. When I told him about it he sounded real excited. They are real rare. But I am not gonna presure you though. I hate pushy people. Pestering me all of the time. But if you change your mind or if you are just curious about stuff, let me know cause this guy knows folks who actually worked on the Ford development program, so he has access to mucho info.

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
Detom - Its tucked away in the corner of the barn and I want to hold on to it until I decide what to do with it.

Ron

How many of these engines were actually made?

I'm not sure since this was an engine I never expected to find and I have a spare short block in cosmoline looks brand new. I have to say that the two came together and I have not done anything with either, but I suspect some thing ? When I first bought it I did some research but not much out there on this engine.

Sounds like a great find. Best of luck with it.

It is a great find Josh. Pristine examples of the cammer go for $30K these days.

I've never read any total sales numbers for the cammer, they only sold over the counter, but they sold lots of them. They are far more plentiful than a Boss 429. In the Seventies, prices had already started to escalate, but I would hear of a cammer motor for sale still in the crate frequently, by the eighties asking prices were in the area of $10K.

your friend on the PIBB, George

Great pictures, George! Truly an awesome motor!

Michael

George,
That thing is huge!!!

The engine that is...

Thanks for posting.

Josh

George have you rebuilt one of these motors ? Is that your motor ?

Ron,

those were just some pictures I pulled off the 'net. It's not my motor, but boy do I wish it were!!!!

I have worked on one just like that (single 4 barrel carb), long ago in a galaxy far, far away. Literally in a Galaxy!!! Get it? It was in a '64 Ford Galaxy. LOL....

Didn't rebuild it, just maintenance. The motor was new! I was a teenager putting green in my pocket by turning wrenches. Straight forward motor, with some very long timing chains.

your friend on the DTBB, George

Yea, I have played with a couple Boss 302 (clevors ) and a buch of FE's but that Cammer is huge and look complicated. I took off the valve covers and there is a lot of engraved clearances and numbers etched into the valve train components. It going to take some real time to take this apart and go over this motor.

wow mark super sexy shrimp boat!