MODULAR OR BUST!

resto,

I have no hands on experience "hot rodding" or "swapping" the modular V8s, but I can share a bit of info to get you going.

FRPP is offering a 5.0 liter 400 bhp 4 cam mod motor as a crate motor at $14,995. A 4.6 liter 305 bhp mod motor is offered as a crate motor at only $5,200.

http://www.fordracingparts.com/home/home.asp

A Kenne Bell supercharger is one of the more successful ways to increase the output of these motors, the kits are well engineered, install easily, are compact and look oem.

http://www.kennebell.net

There are ways to boost output through tuning as well, as the 4 cammers are known to be capable of 100 bhp per liter naturally aspirated

Steve Wilkinson (562) 634-3434; and Collectors Choice Ltd (608) 849-9878; are 2 vendors who have experience with mod motor installations.

With the popularity of Mustangs soaring, I'm sure there are engine builders in your area who could share their thoughts on how best to hot rod the cammers as well. I'll offer this one bit of advice: Avoid the engine builders who don't return phone calls or who are reluctant to give you any time discussing your options, because they would treat you the same way as a customer. You don't need that in your life.

I for one would appreciate it if you shared what you learn as your project progresses, perhaps some pics at various stages, etc.

Good luck.

Your friend on the PIBB, George

Mark I'm curious, why do you specify the '03 heads? What factors made you abandon the mod motor?

Your engine bay is "automotive sex" by the way, beautiful.

George

quote:

Originally posted by Mark:

03 head large port heads and great with superchargers.

I can get the same if not more with a 392W engine for power with less money.

Mark - What kind of price are you talking about for a 392? Care to share engine specs and HP predictions?

I'm currently building a 4.6 DOHC engine.
Sean Hyland Motorsports is an excellent source for parts and info.
SHM website

buy his book
4.6L Ford Engines

This book lists all of the differences in parts for all 4.6L variants and states which parts are best.
You don't need the 03 cobra heads, they're not that much better than the 99-02 heads, not anything that a minor port job couldn't exceed. Anyhow, the book states flow numbers and is very informative

The 4.6 is an awesome engine and is a perfect fit for the Pantera!

It is a perfect starting point for a performance build. It doesn't have the short comings of the Cleveland. The Cleveland has a weak block and is just plain old technology. the 4.6 aluminum block from 93 to 99 can be prepped to take as much as 1500 horsepower according to SHM. The newer 00 to 02 blocks are good for apx 900 HP, and the 03 to 04 blocks are Iron and are strong as well. It's easy to get these blocks, heads, and the forged steel crank. I have 2 forged steel cranks and paid apx $250 a piece after shipping.

The biggest weak link for these engines is the connecting rods. The 03 and 04 cobra engine comes stock with Manley H beam rods. You can buy these rods for $500 and they're good for over 700 HP.

Anyhow, don't give up on this engine. It's nothing to be scared of and will be much more rewarding and impressive than an old shrimp boat engine (that should raise some hate and discontent)

Nate

Hey! them's fightin' words.

shrimp boat engine indeed! Huh!

Truthfully Nate, my desire to build up the Cleveland in my Pantera stems from my desire to keep the engine looking oem (modify the innards only) and because I have a garage & den full of Cleveland parts. Plus I know I can achieve the engine I want with it, i.e. reliable, powerful, yet docile & smooth running. I don't expect anyone else to share my decision, and I support whatever path each owner chooses to take. I'm sure a mod motor can be built to provide the same neck snapping powerband a 7 liter Windsor crate motor has.

I would be most interested to read what problems you run into & how you resolve them, more details about your engine as time goes on, photos, what ever you'd be willing to share. I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to the mod motors & would love to learn more.

nice name by the way, my oldest son is a Nate.

your youthfully challenged friend on the PIBB, George

Whoa... nice bay, Mark! I can almost hear it...

I agree with George in the 'to each his own' attitude. Variety is what makes our Panteras desirable works of personal art! We're all just taking different avenues to the same destination. It gives each of us something new to learn.

Michael

But Cyboman, would you be as supportive and understanding if someone was asking how best to fit in a Honda motor and to fitt 22" wheels and tires?? How about if they ask how to install one of those hydraulic suspensions that make the car jump up and down???

You got me there, DeTom! I doubt I would be, but it certainly would be interesting to see the finished project! I'm sure it may even open the Pantera door to a whole new generation of tuners. I, however, am not part of that generation.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Cyboman:
You got me there, DeTom! I doubt I would be, but it certainly would be interesting to see the finished project! I'm sure it may even open the Pantera door to a whole new generation of tuners. I, however, am not part of that generation.

Michael

Lol Haha. I have to agree with Cyboman on that one. Even though I am quote "part of the tuner generation" due to my age- I am still far from being 'for' that garbage. If what DeTom mentioned was actually done I believe that would be the demise of the Pantera...

As far as mod motors go- that's kinda my forte.

Restoman- if you have decided to go modular look for a 4.6L Mustang Cobra motor. Make sure it's used and in working condition to save you some dough. Next have that thing bored to a 5.0L "Big Bore" motor. You can leave the heads pretty much alone other than maybe some polishing to clean them up a bit. Then add some 1/2" fuel rails, a 42lb injector, and a blower running between 14 and 19lbs of boost. On the Pantera you'd have to go roots style because I'm not sure of the fit for an S-Trim. (Some of the guys might be able to comment on that) Either way, you are looking at well over 500hp. If you want I can get you more build info for those motors.

(Note: the motor I described along with some added Mustang specific parts is making 620hp on a friends '98 Cobra)

MC '72,

Make that a Kenne Bell blower, which is an "auotrotor" blower, significantly different than a Roots or Eaton type blower. I think once you see their kits, you'll be sold.

None of the centrifugal blowers (i.e. Vortech)are going to fit on the front (or side) of the motor.

Go for the cammer, rock n roll! When do I get a ride?

your friend on the PIBB, George

quote:

Originally posted by Cyboman:
You got me there, DeTom! I doubt I would be, but it certainly would be interesting to see the finished project! I'm sure it may even open the Pantera door to a whole new generation of tuners. I, however, am not part of that generation.

Michael

Yeah I will be dead by then too. There is a bright side to getting old and dieing after all.

Motorcity72, you have some interesting points but I don't quite agree with your philosophy. I'm not saying it's wrong or anything like that because like George stated, everyone's ideas and buildups are valid and a work of art.

But, there's no reason to buy a running engine and pay that extra cash if you're just going to disassemble it and resleeve it for 3.7" pistons to get to 5.0L. These engines use torque to yield fasteners and they are a one time use item that must be replaced when you untorque them. You'd end up spending allot of $ on top of the big bore kit. If you're going to pay the extra cash for a running engine, don't open it up, just put the blower on it as it is.

If you are going to open it, or build one from a parts engine like I'm doing. There's no real point in looking for a Cobra. The Lincoln Mark VIII engine is nearly identical (less the forged steel crank) to the 96-98 Cobra engine. The cast crank is still good to over 500hp according to SHM. So get one of these engines and buy a forged steel crank and some of the newer 99-03 heads.

Also, I don't see the point in putting a big bore kit in it if you're putting a blower on it. The guys with the 03/04 cobras are changing pulleys, throttle bodies and other external parts and getting well over 500 HP at the rear wheels. This is according to my Dyno guy. With blower upgrades and head work they are getting over 600 HP at the wheels.

I'm building a twin turbo setup with T3/T4 hybrid turbos and I'm shooting for a measly 600HP. I'm running a Mark VIII block (93-98 Mk VIII and 96-99 Cobra blocks are the strongest stock blocks) a cobra forged steel crank, Manley Pro Series I beam rods, JE pistons 8.5:1 comp ratio, 2002 cobra heads (99-04 have the single intake runner per cylinder, 93-98 have two runners per cylinder), coil on plugs, and a bunch of other little do-dads.

With the deep skirt block and the 4 bolt main caps with cross bolts these things are bullet proof!

Your friends setup sounds like a hot ticket though. I'm not sure if any blower that uses a belt differing from the 03/04 cobra's super charger belt will fit in a Pantera. From the pictures I've seen, there's only 1/4" clearance with the 03/04 cobras blower.

Just my observations on everything, and that doesn't mean it's correct or the only way.

Nate

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom:
But Cyboman, would you be as supportive and understanding if someone was asking how best to fit in a Honda motor and to fitt 22" wheels and tires?? How about if they ask how to install one of those hydraulic suspensions that make the car jump up and down???

Hold on there, Detom.

I'll take a Honda F1 motor.

22inch wheels won't fit a Pantera, but if they did....you'd see them.

A switch operated, adjustable-height, bladder-type air suspension on a Pantera would be very, very cool. Drop the car to an insanely low height when you're able... very cool.

Kevin

Kevin,

That suspension was offered by Hall Pantera a few years back. I'm not sure if it's still available, and it may have been for the front only. You could raise the cars height for driveways and speedbumps, lower it to the ground for a static car show display, or put it at ride height somewhere in the middle to drive.

Michael

Very, very clean looking Mark.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark:
Engine now

Hall sells a set of shocks that raise and lower the front end for getting over speed bumps and up & down driveways. I'm sure with a little modification you can make them bounce

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom:
But Cyboman, would you be as supportive and understanding if someone was asking how best to fit in a Honda motor and to fitt 22" wheels and tires?? How about if they ask how to install one of those hydraulic suspensions that make the car jump up and down???

I think a Pantera should have a Cleveland. But that's just me.

Matt Merritt
#2171

quote:

Originally posted by Matt_M:
I think a Pantera should have a Cleveland. But that's just me.

Matt Merritt
#2171

What about a Windsor?

Matt, I'm laughing at myself right now. You said in 2 sentences what has taken me several very long posts!

Here's one for you Matt, your friend on the PIBB, George

Coz, I might do that some day. I don't know what others think but I like Halls stuff and have bought a bunch of it over the years. I really like Gary and Bev. I think they are great folks.

Hi Kevin:

I wouldn't put a Windsor engine in a Pantera for the same reason I wouldn't do a Chevy V8 conversion on an XKE.

Matt Merritt
#2171

Matt, what do you think of the 400? I kind of feel the same way which is why I wanted to go with the 400. It is still the same series of block, kind of a "Super Clevland".

Gary

Hi Gary:

Here's where I start looking for George...

MM

So, you must need a long winded, social philosopher, bag of hot air response for Gary! I'm your man! LOL....

Guys, if you see moderator Mark coming, run and hide. I think we've hijacked this topic. It was supposed to be about the mod motor! LOL...

your "touchy-feely" friend on the PIBB, George

Ah, we can start our own topic. It is still in the relm of Modular opinions. George, I forgot, why were you going to talk me out of the 400?

Best reguards,
Gary

It is still interesting to see what other people's opinions are. Actually, my dad has an XKE with a V12. I would never do that. I think the V12 goes in the XKE and is a wwork of art. I would never want to work on a V12 unless that was my ONLY car and I never planned on working on another car. That's why I don't have a Jag. I like them, I am just not going to work on them, nor would I put a V8 in it. That being said, it weighs a couple hundred lbs less and is by far more powerful!

Gary

The 351C is not the only engine that came stock in a Pantera. The very last of the GT5-S's came with a 351W in them (I believe they were sourced from a truck).

And of course, we all know that the Si's came with fuel injected 5.0L Mustang motors in them.

Michael

Gary,

the 400 was not a popular "hot rod" engine when I was doing that sort of thing. Even though almost every part from a Cleveland interchanges. Strange huh? But that was my reasoning, you hop up Clevelands, not 400s. It was a mind set I acquired from the 70s & 80s. From my point of view you were thinking "out of the box" to choose the 400 for your Pantera, and I applaud that. Currently, the 393/427 Windsors, the 4.6 mod motors and the occaisional 385 series engine are the popular transplant engines for Panteras. But, like I wrote a moment ago, almost ever part of the Cleveland interchanges with the 400. What an inexpensive way to "stroke" you 351C. Buy a 400 at the wrecking yard, rebuild the short block, bolt on your Cleveland heads, cam, intake (with spacers), oil pan, oil pump, flywheel, balancer, distributor, water pump. And if you want to stroke a 400, 351W cranks drop straight in. Now all you need to contend with are the bell housing, motor mounts & exhaust, which are no more difficult than the 385 conversion. and if a person finds an fmx block, even the bellhousing is the same!

Now, the flip side of the coin, in general, the closer to stock a Pantera is, the more desireable it is to many buyers. And "if" the Pantera ever becomes popular with collectors and starts climbing in value, then the stock cars will climb in value faster. Many people feel like Matt, a Jag engine belongs in a Jag, a Ferrari motor belongs in a Ferrari, and a Cleveland belongs in the Pantera. Its part of the character of the car.

But one of the major differences between a Pantera & other classic Italian sports cars, modifying Panteras is OK within our family of owners. Do so with another marque and you'd be ostracized. With a Pantera, everyone embraces your modifications with comments like "cool", "good job", perhaps even "bitchen". The concourse car & the modified car can sit comfortably next to one another at a show. As long as we continue to accept one another this way, we will continue to have the "best" family of owners among the various marques, my personal opinion, of course.

We also tend to endlessly debate these topics on the PIBB! LOL

Matt, was that enough hot air for you?

your venerable friend on the PIBB, George

quote:

We also tend to endlessly debate these topics on the PIBB! LOL

That's fun though. The nice thing is I will have 2 engines when done. I will always be able to put the Cleveland back in. I will probably get the cleveland set up as a "swap engine" should I have a problem with this one.

George, I have always thought the 400 would have been a more popular "hop up" engine if it had fit between the shock towers in a Mustang!

Gary

Gary,

I look forward to your completed 400 project. I can't wait to see how it looks in the engine bay, and how it performs.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:


But one of the major differences between a Pantera & other classic Italian sports cars, modifying Panteras is OK within our family of owners. Do so with another marque and you'd be ostracized. With a Pantera, everyone embraces your modifications with comments like "cool", "good job", perhaps even "bitchen". The concourse car & the modified car can sit comfortably next to one another at a show. As long as we continue to accept one another this way, we will continue to have the "best" family of owners among the various marques, my personal opinion, of course.

your venerable friend on the PIBB, George

Well said. And right on target.

quote:

Originally posted by Cyboman:
Gary,

I look forward to your completed 400 project. I can't wait to see how it looks in the engine bay, and how it performs.

Michael

Thanks Me too. I have a couple projects going on right now. When the engine gets here it will be installed. At a latter date, when I am ahead of some of my other projects, I am going to start a full resto on either this one (#1905) or the other one(#1280). Not sure yet. Before I start the restoration I need to finish the mgb, and do some engine work to the TA.

Gary

can you say "gear head"?

George

quote:

Originally posted by Matt_M:
Hi Kevin:

I wouldn't put a Windsor engine in a Pantera for the same reason I wouldn't do a Chevy V8 conversion on an XKE.

Matt Merritt
#2171

Matt,
That analogy sucks. Sorry

Windsors and Cleves are in the same family. Jaguar and Chebby engines aren't.

Though an argument can be said that Ford and Jag engines are now in the same family since Ford own Jaguar!

So a Ford V8 conversion on an XKE would be "bitchen"!!


Kevin

What could have been a good thread has turned into nothing more than a session for everyone to pat each others on the back. Nothing technical here that's for sure....

pantera 2023,

Well then it looks like it was a bust.

Michael

Nate,

If you go back and reread the thread, you'll find there was technical info supplied, alot of it by you! There were also links posted to find more information from people who specialize in Mod motors.

Out of all the Panteras, only a relative few have Mod motor conversions, so we are not the experts to provide the technical depth you were hoping to see.

Since you're doing a Mod motor build-up, you may be on the forefront of this knowledge when you're done. You may become the Mod motor go to guy on the PIBB!

Michael

For those of you who really want Ford mod-motor technical advice, my suggestion is to post some topics on those discussion boards.

I post on a few of the boards where I've met some of the moderators. The sites listed below have people in contact with NHRA, Livernois Motorsports, Ford SVT, etc. All very knowledgeable in the mod-motor field. Just check out some of the project cars and ask about them.
=>www.stangnet.com
=>www.stangpro.com
=>the cobra corral site- dont remember the site addy off hand.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark:

quote:

Originally posted by pantera2023:

What could have been a good thread has turned into nothing more than a session for everyone to pat each others on the back. Nothing technical here that's for sure....

LOL don't you hate when it does not stay on subject

Yeah, and you guys are adding to the dilemna!!

Including ME!!

couldn't resist, could you Mark?

George

quote:

Originally posted by restoman:
I made the decision to go modular. There are so many different year/block/head combinations, I don't know where to start. I was thinking of the Mach 1 DOHC. But I would like to bump up the HP and Torque to around 400. Has any one researched these options or installed one that can give me advise on what works the best for the Pantera?

Did you ever check out this site? You may want to check it out.
http://home.earthlink.net/~rlbpantera/

So what do you guys think of this little modular beast I picked up ? NO WAY will this fit in the Pantera. 680hp from the factory over the Ford counter in 1965. LOL

Ron, BITCHEN!

the cammer is absolutely on of Fords best engines ever. One of the world's best engines!

7 liters, naturally aspirated, I remember 650 bhp, but I won't quibble over a few bhp, it's damn close to 100 bhp per liter, that was in 1965, SOHC and only 2 valves per cylinder.

That beast looks like its laying in a trailer, why don't you just haul it to my house on your way to the SEMA show?

your friend on the DTBB, George

George I picked it up with another short block for 3800.00 its in the back of my rack body with a bunch of assorted ford parts. there were also chrysler hemi parts but I was in la la land when I seen this thing laying on it side in the guys shop I bought it from. it needs to be taken apart a run thru. cant even think of hwo can do that.

OMG!!! That is the rarest most valuable motor on the face of the planet. How much do you want for it??? Can I pick it up this afteernoon??

This is why I'm stuck on my 351 C build. I raced FE's all my life and never had these RPM, oiling and strength issues.

That motor is a museam piece since I think that the later 427sohc's had aluminum heads and this one has CI heads so I think its real early 65 or maybe the 64 one prep'd for Nascar then once Nascar banded hemi's it was used or sold else where. I have a friend who is the guru on these motors and thats his feeling. It's real clean inside but it has been run.

THAT IS COOL. IF that engine is soooo valuable (which it apears to be) would it be worthwile trying to find the car it came from. Together their value could go up tremendously.

Gary

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
So what do you guys think of this little modular beast I picked up ? NO WAY will this fit in the Pantera. 680hp from the factory over the Ford counter in 1965. LOL

Great find! Do it justice! (I say shoehorn it into your Pantera, I'll come over with the butter and lard.)

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Cyboman:
Great find! Do it justice! (I say shoehorn it into your Pantera, I'll come over with the butter and lard.)

Michael

I agree with you Micheal. IT would be the most awesome Pantera to have ever existed in the history of mankind. A truly historical event IMO.

Gary, it didn't "come from a car". They were sold as crate motors only. Ford never installed a cammer in a production vehicle. (650 bhp!)

George

Mike - I'm thinking of it but first problem is the bellhousing it dosent bolt up.

Comp2 - It did not come in a car it was sold only over the counter in 64 for Nascar and 65 it was the Funny Car engine.

Detom - I almost lost it and had to tell the guy I bought it from that its worth a LOT OF MONEY, he said I was honest with him and someone owed him money so it was left in a warehouse with many other FE parts and Chrylser Hemi.

AC, Was it ever used in a nascar?

Gary

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
Mike - I'm thinking of it but first problem is the bellhousing it dosent bolt up.

Comp2 - It did not come in a car it was sold only over the counter in 64 for Nascar and 65 it was the Funny Car engine.

Detom - I almost lost it and had to tell the guy I bought it from that its worth a LOT OF MONEY, he said I was honest with him and someone owed him money so it was left in a warehouse with many other FE parts and Chrylser Hemi.

A couple of years back, at a car show in Charlette, I saw the first mustang funny car that had a 427 SOHC, only it was missing the motor. They wanted 16 K for the car because THEY COULDN"T FIND A SOHC motor for it. That is how rare it is. It is more valuable than it's weight in gold.

Comp 2 - I have no record and there is no serial # as from what I can see justa casting #'s. I covered it and sat it in the corner of the barn. The other short block is brand new is cosmoline. The other intakes I sold most of them.
Detom - I have a friend up here in Florida Ny who has a 65 fastback that has XP-427 on the side and was an original Experimental Porduction car, but hes not parting with it. Valuable ? They had there moments ! The 10' timing chain didnt help those moments.
So my point is !
Look close at the MODULAR motor, its modeled after the SOHC. The FE series is a good motor. Believe me if I cant get this 351c build off the ground you'll see pics of this in the Pantera. I just cant bring myself to cutting up that car. A small block is what belongs in the Pantera.

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
A small block is what belongs in the Pantera.

I agree. I would want to decrease the weight back there if I could.

427 SOHC history for Gary:

In 1963 Ford announced the total performance program. Inside Ford this meant kick butt & win every type of racing there was at any cost. So in 1963 a Ford Galaxie powered by a 427 FE motor won NASCAR. For 1964 Chrysler fought back, introduced the 426 Hemi and kicked some Ford butt. Chrysler walked away with the NASCAR trophy for '64. After the '64 season Ford decided they needed a weapon to compete against the 426 Hemi and in about 3 months they developed the 427 SOHC (cammer), which is based upon the 427 FE side oiler short block. They dropped it in a '64 Galaxy and turned the fastest test laps at Daytona anybody had ever timed. Chrysler threatened to pull out of NASCAR if Ford was allowed to run the cammer, NASCAR responded by banning the cammer, it was never allowed to run in 1 NASCAR race. Ford then dropped the cammer into some Mustangs running in the A/FX class (factory experimental) and kicked butt in NHRA & AHRA drag racng instead.

Ron, that motor belongs in a stripped down & lowered '64 Galaxy 2 door. That would be too cool.

your friend on the DTBB, George

You go George !! and dont forget my favorite Comet ? Yes this is the basis for todays modular / Cammer that ford brought back. But let us not forget this monster is HHHHEEAAVY about 675lbs. Practical ? I think this is a museam piece. Realisticly what do I put this thing in ?
Oh George dont forget my favorite COMET also made this motor famous.

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
Comp 2 - I have no record and there is no serial # as from what I can see justa casting #'s. I covered it and sat it in the corner of the barn. The other short block is brand new is cosmoline. The other intakes I sold most of them.
Detom - I have a friend up here in Florida Ny who has a 65 fastback that has XP-427 on the side and was an original Experimental Porduction car, but hes not parting with it. Valuable ? They had there moments ! The 10' timing chain didnt help those moments.
So my point is !
Look close at the MODULAR motor, its modeled after the SOHC. The FE series is a good motor. Believe me if I cant get this 351c build off the ground you'll see pics of this in the Pantera. I just cant bring myself to cutting up that car. A small block is what belongs in the Pantera.

Actually Gary, the engine you have is probably worth more than your car. To the right people.

Detom - These engines are worth anywhere from 12 -25k depending on the condition. My car is worth 30k its a standard Pantera but I just bought it. So havent been able to sink my paws into it yet. I'm at a stand still with this Cleveland. To many tricks to get the to run high horse power and he blocks are weak. I'm thinking Windsor crate motor maybe just rebuild the cleveland as a stroker ??? Gotta get my act together. Maybe sell the 427sohc and really got tom town..........?

I didn't mean to put down the car at all, I am just saying these are ultra rare engines. I have a friend who knows one of the guys who was on that program at Ford. I will check with him to see what it is worth.
Yeah I know the standard Cleveland is kinda weak, right above the mains area, but I am sure that blocks like Dart and that australian place have got that all worked out. And they come in aluminum alloy too which means you can shave another 200 pounds off your car.
I know the 427 side oiler was a real strong motor because it was made to be a racer. You can get one of those in alloy too and it would weigh less than a cast iron small block. But then again that is real old school. Maybe one of those new modular motors?? Micheal was saying they are a ton of maoney if you want to get the one for the Ford GT, but the 302 modular crate is about 14K for 400 horse. I am sure it is pleanty strong.
Have you considered a super high winding rice motor?? Like that Honda that redlines at 9500 RPM?? Or how about a Honda v8 like they use in champ cars. Ford use to make a little tiny V10 that developed 750 horses at 16,000 RPM. I always wanted to get me one of those. Souynds like a buzz saw gone bezerk. It would scare the hell out of inocent bystanders and small children. Muwahahaha.
But getting back to reality, unless you are entering the 24 hours of LeMans, I am sure the Cleveland will be plenty strong. George knows how to build them to where they never ever break. He has built and help build hundreds and not a single one has ever broke. That is a convincing record if there ever was one.

No insult taken, George has given me mucho advice ! Thanks George, just all that I read has scared me a little. A good build is probabaly in the range of 10k when the smoke clears, I raced CJ's they reved to 7000 and made a lotta power and torque. I'm gonna stay with the Ford motors but that V10 sounded tempting.... LOL

quote:

George knows how to build them to where they never ever break. He has built and help build hundreds and not a single one has ever broke.

LOL.....................

HUNDREDS!?

NEVER EVER BREAK!?

EEKS!

DeTom is that how legends are made? oh hell, I'm in trouble now.

I'll let you in on a little secret, back in the '70s & '80s, most Cleveland builds were in the 350 to 450 bhp range. Some guys were busting engines even at 450 bhp, but I believe that could have been avoided with proper assembly. The advent of cheap stroker kits & roller cams have made it easy to get a Cleveland into the >500 bhp trouble zone. That's the reality. You can go there with a Cleveland, but the engine needs to be assembled carefully, smartly, with no cutting corners. A Clevor built upon a Dart or FRPP block would be good insurance for your motor investment.

the legendary engine builder on the DTBB, Smokey Pence

By the way Ron, I'd give my eye teeth AND a couple of other precious things to acquire a cammer motor. What a find. I would truly love to drop one in a '64 two door Galaxy fast back. drop 'er on the chassis, cut out the wheel well sheet metal NASCAR style, side pipes, a 4 speed top loader.

Its like a Deuce coupe with a flat head, it just belongs.

You see, as a kid, there was an older guy who had one just like that. He bought a used Galaxy and dropped in a Cammer he had bought from Ford for about $2500 (about 2/3 the price of a new car back then). His cammer engine could totally overwhelm the Galaxy's chassis, he stripped teeth off his 9" ring gear & busted carriers, twisted axles, smoked clutches, he could get rubber in any gear at any speed at will. He even twisted his leaf springs into an "s" shape. (afterwards he invested in a good set of traction bars). he bought the least expensive tires he could find because they didn't last very long. He had a fiberglass bubble on his hood, hiding the engine. Jaws would drop when he opened 'er up and there sat this big, menacing SOHC 427. The one engine that trumps every other muscle car engine ever made. Imagine pulling up alongside a 'Vette with a 427 under the hood in a Galaxy and leaving him at the light like his engine stalled! The cammer with a single 4 barrel had 200 more bhp than a 427 'Vette! That's 50% more bhp than the 'Vette which sported over 400 bhp itself.

This fellow would drive by my street in his other car (Mustang) and pick me up, saying "hey George, hop in and come take a look at my car, tell me what I've broken now". LOL... I think he was actually showing off, you know, he was proud his motor could break parts so easily. He never complained about buying parts to fix his car.

The '60s were crazy times.

Wasn't this post originally about installing a mod motor in a Pantera. Oh well. Hey Mark! Me Bad!

reminiscing on the DTBB, George

Exactly George I'm leaning towards a Windsor Block assembly with Cleveland heads. Clevor ? I love those Boss 302's. A real high reving motor, I bought one when I waas 21 and it had a fully grooved crank with Trans am pistons had to run it on Cam 2 114. Any way I have to mention MODULAR to make it official ! LOL I guess we need to start a new thread "CLEVOR " I would like to elaborate on that thought ! GEORGE ! Hint Hint Hint

quote:

the legendary engine builder on the DTBB, Smokey Pence

I knew you reminded me of someone. It was the fact your profile pic doesn't have your customary three sided hat. BUt Smokey was a chevy guy wasn't he? You are more like Carrol Shelby.

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
Exactly George I'm leaning towards a Windsor Block assembly with Cleveland heads. Clevor ? I love those Boss 302's. A real high reving motor, I bought one when I waas 21 and it had a fully grooved crank with Trans am pistons had to run it on Cam 2 114. Any way I have to mention MODULAR to make it official ! LOL I guess we need to start a new thread "CLEVOR " I would like to elaborate on that thought ! GEORGE ! Hint Hint Hint

Ron, I just got off the phone with my friend and he is definetly interested in buying the SOHC from you. He will need more info and if it is ok with you I would like to put you two in touch with each other. If you are interested could you please emaile me at Detomaso72@yahoo.com ??

Detom - Its tucked away in the corner of the barn and I want to hold on to it until I decide what to do with it.

Ron

OK, Ron. When I told him about it he sounded real excited. They are real rare. But I am not gonna presure you though. I hate pushy people. Pestering me all of the time. But if you change your mind or if you are just curious about stuff, let me know cause this guy knows folks who actually worked on the Ford development program, so he has access to mucho info.

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
Detom - Its tucked away in the corner of the barn and I want to hold on to it until I decide what to do with it.

Ron

How many of these engines were actually made?

I'm not sure since this was an engine I never expected to find and I have a spare short block in cosmoline looks brand new. I have to say that the two came together and I have not done anything with either, but I suspect some thing ? When I first bought it I did some research but not much out there on this engine.

Sounds like a great find. Best of luck with it.

It is a great find Josh. Pristine examples of the cammer go for $30K these days.

I've never read any total sales numbers for the cammer, they only sold over the counter, but they sold lots of them. They are far more plentiful than a Boss 429. In the Seventies, prices had already started to escalate, but I would hear of a cammer motor for sale still in the crate frequently, by the eighties asking prices were in the area of $10K.

your friend on the PIBB, George

Great pictures, George! Truly an awesome motor!

Michael

George,
That thing is huge!!!

The engine that is...

Thanks for posting.

Josh

George have you rebuilt one of these motors ? Is that your motor ?

Ron,

those were just some pictures I pulled off the 'net. It's not my motor, but boy do I wish it were!!!!

I have worked on one just like that (single 4 barrel carb), long ago in a galaxy far, far away. Literally in a Galaxy!!! Get it? It was in a '64 Ford Galaxy. LOL....

Didn't rebuild it, just maintenance. The motor was new! I was a teenager putting green in my pocket by turning wrenches. Straight forward motor, with some very long timing chains.

your friend on the DTBB, George

Yea, I have played with a couple Boss 302 (clevors ) and a buch of FE's but that Cammer is huge and look complicated. I took off the valve covers and there is a lot of engraved clearances and numbers etched into the valve train components. It going to take some real time to take this apart and go over this motor.

wow mark super sexy shrimp boat!