Any advice on what to do with my quiet mufflers. I have stock GTS and i tried to get MINDTRAINS but no luck. Any thing out there that s louder and fits my stock GTS Headers ? TONY
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GTS quiet? Louder? Strait pipes?
Yep. Cut the guts out of the mufflers from the top side. My mufflers cost me 65RWHP.
They're plenty loud now. Maybe too loud. Or maybe I'm gettin old.
They're plenty loud now. Maybe too loud. Or maybe I'm gettin old.
I can vouch for 4N's noisy mufflers. They are loud indeed and sound real great!
Tony,
If you want a pair of Hall Big bores, i know someone who has a fairly new set for $150.
drop me a line if you are interested.
John
If you want a pair of Hall Big bores, i know someone who has a fairly new set for $150.
drop me a line if you are interested.
John
Big Bores get my vote for best sound. I have Ansa GTS mufflers that have been gutted. You can feel and hear the difference but they don't have the deep throaty sound of the Big Bores.
Check out Space City's website to see how.
Check out Space City's website to see how.
Do you think the BIG BORES fit my GTS headers or do i need to getnew ones
I do not know if the big bores will work with GTS headers. Perhaps you could call one one of the vendors or hopefully someone here will respond.
What is the law in the US concerning noise levels?
Here in the UK it is a subjective measure - that it shouldn't be much louder than the original factory exhaust. If the exhaust is loud enough you will fail the annual safety check here (the "MOT" test), you may even get stopped by the police and issued with a penalty notice.
Does this happen in the US?
Here in the UK it is a subjective measure - that it shouldn't be much louder than the original factory exhaust. If the exhaust is loud enough you will fail the annual safety check here (the "MOT" test), you may even get stopped by the police and issued with a penalty notice.
Does this happen in the US?
quote:Originally posted by Rapier:
What is the law in the US concerning noise levels?
Here in the UK it is a subjective measure - that it shouldn't be much louder than the original factory exhaust. If the exhaust is loud enough you will fail the annual safety check here (the "MOT" test), you may even get stopped by the police and issued with a penalty notice.
Does this happen in the US?
Yes and no. There is no federal law and I don't believe there are any state laws regarding this (maybe California??). Many times it is a local ordnance, only enforced within a particular city or even part of a particular city. In most instances its subjective although I have heard of some locations where the police actually have a decibel meter to determine if the vehicle is exceeding the limit. And since these are all local ordnances the limits and rules vary from place to place
quote:Do you think the BIG BORES fit my GTS headers or do i need to getnew ones
Any Muffler shop should be able to add an adapter if they are not direct bolt ups. But I seem to think they are.
I have a set of Big Bore mufflers in good shape and would be interested in a trade for a like Ansa set for a Pre-L. They sound great, but are a bit too loud for my liking.
I can send pictures if anyone is interested.
Chip chascher@fuse.net
I can send pictures if anyone is interested.
Chip chascher@fuse.net
quote:Any Muffler shop should be able to add an adapter if they are not direct bolt ups. But I seem to think they are.
Pretty sure Big Bores were made for stock exhaust. The GTS is a larger diameter, but Jeff's advice will solve that issue.
Larry
Here's a tech article with pictures of gutting GTS mufflers.
quote:My mufflers cost me 65RWHP.
HUH!!??
That is a LOT of found HP. Please, what testing/dyno did you do to arrive at that figure?
Larry
I hear Gary Hall has 180 degree headers with pacs that come out the back same place as the GTS mufflers, that might be the way to go.
I had the GTS mufflers with headers that fit my Cleavor engine ( Fontana Windsor block w/ Cleaveland heads) they had been cut and cleaned out inside and they sounded great and yes loud ,in fact I think that they were louder than the big bore exhaust that I had on my blue car. I really liked this exhaust, it seemed to perform well. I only changed it because I wanted the 180 Headers which are even louder.
Here is some useles information about noise levels that you can read while draining some oil or something. This is a response to previous post about noise levels in California
In California the official that creates the citation decides subjectively the vehicle is too noisy. Here is how one of several laws related to this is written.
CVC 27150. (a) Every motor vehicle subject to registration shall at all times be equipped with an adequate muffler in constant operation and properly maintained to prevent any excessive or unusual noise, and no muffler or exhaust system shall be equipped with a cutout, bypass, or similar device.
(b) Except as provided in Division 16.5 (commencing with Section 38000) with respect to off-highway motor vehicles subject to identification, every passenger vehicle operated off the highways shall at all times be equipped with an adequate muffler in constant operation and properly maintained so as to meet the requirements of Article 2.5 (commencing with Section 27200), and no muffler or exhaust system shall be equipped with a cutout, bypass, or similar device.
(c) The provisions of subdivision (b) shall not be applicable to passenger vehicles being operated off the highways in an organized racing or competitive event conducted under the auspices of a recognized sanctioning body or by permit issued by the local governmental authority having jurisdiction.
The person that is cited can have it repaired and citation(s) signed off or appeal the citation utilizing a referee. (a bunch of other laws dictate what needs to be done and what is or is not acceptable).
The referee is a third party that has a defined testing process that measures the sound level at a theoretical distance of 50 feet. In most, but not all cases, vehicles louder that 85 db at 50 feet are usually in violation. (This can be a rather complex issue so just use this as a rule of thumb).
In some states where code enforcement is needed to cite repeat offending vehicle(s). (Imagine that) The agency(s) at times contract with or certifies a local agent to run the test in those areas most negatively impacted by the noise. This keeps the citations very clean and leads to some very effective enforcement. So if you are going to race in a parking lot with cut outs, keep changing the jurisdiction you are in. Of course if the CHP has been asked to help out they have a way of remembering you from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, they are really good at this type of thing.
Example of sound levels sources
20 db Quiet garden, electric-clock ticking, drizzling rain
30 db Blast of wind, whisper @ 1 m.
40 db Countryside areas, quiet apartment, wrinkling paper @ 1 m.
50 db Residential areas, quiet streets, fridges, conversation @ 1 m.
55 db Offices, air-conditioners
60 db Alarm-clocks, radio & TV sets at normal volume
64 db Washing machines, quiet typewriters
67 db Hair-dryers, crowded restaurants
69 db Dish-washers, floor-polishers
70 db Loud conversation, noisy street, radio & TV sets at high volume
72 db Vacuum cleaners
78 dbTelephone ring, mechanical workshop
80 db Passing trucks, noisy hall or plant, shuffling @ 1 m.
90 db Passing train, pneumatic hammer, car hooter @ 1 m.
95db Mega "disco", circular saw
100 db Motorcycle without silencer
In California the official that creates the citation decides subjectively the vehicle is too noisy. Here is how one of several laws related to this is written.
CVC 27150. (a) Every motor vehicle subject to registration shall at all times be equipped with an adequate muffler in constant operation and properly maintained to prevent any excessive or unusual noise, and no muffler or exhaust system shall be equipped with a cutout, bypass, or similar device.
(b) Except as provided in Division 16.5 (commencing with Section 38000) with respect to off-highway motor vehicles subject to identification, every passenger vehicle operated off the highways shall at all times be equipped with an adequate muffler in constant operation and properly maintained so as to meet the requirements of Article 2.5 (commencing with Section 27200), and no muffler or exhaust system shall be equipped with a cutout, bypass, or similar device.
(c) The provisions of subdivision (b) shall not be applicable to passenger vehicles being operated off the highways in an organized racing or competitive event conducted under the auspices of a recognized sanctioning body or by permit issued by the local governmental authority having jurisdiction.
The person that is cited can have it repaired and citation(s) signed off or appeal the citation utilizing a referee. (a bunch of other laws dictate what needs to be done and what is or is not acceptable).
The referee is a third party that has a defined testing process that measures the sound level at a theoretical distance of 50 feet. In most, but not all cases, vehicles louder that 85 db at 50 feet are usually in violation. (This can be a rather complex issue so just use this as a rule of thumb).
In some states where code enforcement is needed to cite repeat offending vehicle(s). (Imagine that) The agency(s) at times contract with or certifies a local agent to run the test in those areas most negatively impacted by the noise. This keeps the citations very clean and leads to some very effective enforcement. So if you are going to race in a parking lot with cut outs, keep changing the jurisdiction you are in. Of course if the CHP has been asked to help out they have a way of remembering you from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, they are really good at this type of thing.
Example of sound levels sources
20 db Quiet garden, electric-clock ticking, drizzling rain
30 db Blast of wind, whisper @ 1 m.
40 db Countryside areas, quiet apartment, wrinkling paper @ 1 m.
50 db Residential areas, quiet streets, fridges, conversation @ 1 m.
55 db Offices, air-conditioners
60 db Alarm-clocks, radio & TV sets at normal volume
64 db Washing machines, quiet typewriters
67 db Hair-dryers, crowded restaurants
69 db Dish-washers, floor-polishers
70 db Loud conversation, noisy street, radio & TV sets at high volume
72 db Vacuum cleaners
78 dbTelephone ring, mechanical workshop
80 db Passing trucks, noisy hall or plant, shuffling @ 1 m.
90 db Passing train, pneumatic hammer, car hooter @ 1 m.
95db Mega "disco", circular saw
100 db Motorcycle without silencer
That is a LOT of found HP. Please, what testing/dyno did you do to arrive at that figure?>><
Simple. I hooked my car up to a chassis dyno and with the tailpipes the reading was 375RWHP. My tailpipes were 1 3/4 OD and when I removed them, I got 440 RWHP. I took the dogbone air cleaner off and got another 10 RWHP.
BTW, when my engine buider first fired the motor, the first thing he said was " this exhaust is chokin this motor". He was right.
The new 393 stroker didn't sound much different from stock until I opened up the exhaust.
quote:Originally posted by JohnnyAlki:
Tony,
If you want a pair of Hall Big bores, i know someone who has a fairly new set for $150.
drop me a line if you are interested.
John
John,
Do you know if the Big Bores are still available?
Thanks
Dave
Dave@damardirect.com
Dave,
I sent you an e-mail directly.
John
I sent you an e-mail directly.
John
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What are the "off the shelf" exhaust options? I had no idea how small the tail pipes were in diameter!
I have some sort of headers, but stock tail pipe/muffler. I see PIM sells mufflers and tips, but you're still missing the mid pipe. I know Marino has GTS stuff, but that's pretty pricey. Or maybe it included headers, I don't remember now.
I'm not a fan of the look of the big bore, tho they sound good. I have a pre-l, so I like the upswept tips. The halls I've seen were black and straight.
Options?
I have some sort of headers, but stock tail pipe/muffler. I see PIM sells mufflers and tips, but you're still missing the mid pipe. I know Marino has GTS stuff, but that's pretty pricey. Or maybe it included headers, I don't remember now.
I'm not a fan of the look of the big bore, tho they sound good. I have a pre-l, so I like the upswept tips. The halls I've seen were black and straight.
Options?
Pops,
I bought the PI mufflers this year for my Pre L.
I don't like the way they fit. I think they would be a better fit on the "L" cars. I will be doing something different with mine. I may modify them by cutting the tips off, shortening them and finding a good welder to re-attach them.
Art
I bought the PI mufflers this year for my Pre L.
I don't like the way they fit. I think they would be a better fit on the "L" cars. I will be doing something different with mine. I may modify them by cutting the tips off, shortening them and finding a good welder to re-attach them.
Art
Well, there's less of us, right? I'm not going for out and out performance, but that tail pipe is sooo small. Guess I should see what the size of the GTS ones everyone sells is. I would just like to have a bit bigger pipe. Plus, my mufflers/tips could use a refurb. Kinda low on the list now, but I'm trying to learn. Seats, for the money involved seats will have to come before exhaust.
Pops,
The big restriction with many exhasuts seems to be the collector. Even the Hall Big Bore system suffers as the header still comes together into that 2" collector and from what I have heard can be a loss of 30HP at that point. I have the Hall big bore and contemplated cutting off their collector and re welding on a larger one and then making up an exhaust from 2.5" tube. I would go for a single straight out and add a single 2.5" chrome tip as personally I think the dual tips kinda date the P car.
Larry Stock (PPC) sells a decent header/exhaust combination that he researched and designed.
The other alternative to winding large exhaust tubes around the restricted a-arms is to go the 180 header route.
Julian
The big restriction with many exhasuts seems to be the collector. Even the Hall Big Bore system suffers as the header still comes together into that 2" collector and from what I have heard can be a loss of 30HP at that point. I have the Hall big bore and contemplated cutting off their collector and re welding on a larger one and then making up an exhaust from 2.5" tube. I would go for a single straight out and add a single 2.5" chrome tip as personally I think the dual tips kinda date the P car.
Larry Stock (PPC) sells a decent header/exhaust combination that he researched and designed.
The other alternative to winding large exhaust tubes around the restricted a-arms is to go the 180 header route.
Julian
yeah, 180s don't interest me. I'd just like 2.5 pipe up to pre-l looking mufflers and tips. I suppose gts is about it. You'd just think that with all the panteras, there would be more in the way of tailpipes since its a wear item.
I have no idea what headers are on my car, but yeah, I think the collector is 2". Even 2" would be better than the stock tailpipe. I suppose you could get a 2 to 2.5 adapter and do 2.5 out the back.
I have no idea what headers are on my car, but yeah, I think the collector is 2". Even 2" would be better than the stock tailpipe. I suppose you could get a 2 to 2.5 adapter and do 2.5 out the back.
How about a Pat Mical header featuring a properly designed collector, exhausting through something like the MagnaFlow mufflers that PI Motorsports sells with new 2 1/2" tubing connecting collector to muffler? Tubing bent & welded by your local muffler shop?
cowboy from hell
cowboy from hell
You bring up a good point. I'm not in touch with my local resources. I have found a mechanic if I get in over my head, and found a tow truck guy that seems trustworthy.
I'm going to have the same issue with seats. Should I find someone local to work on mine or just buy some?
We have a rod and custom car show here in the winter. I suspect I'll go there and find out who some of those guys use for custom stuff.
I'm going to have the same issue with seats. Should I find someone local to work on mine or just buy some?
We have a rod and custom car show here in the winter. I suspect I'll go there and find out who some of those guys use for custom stuff.
And another thing....
How do you guys keep track of who has what? PIM *seems* to do a good job of a catalog of sorts, but the other vendors have stuff that hasn't changed in the 4 years I've been looking? Hall has a catalog, but that's like 15 yrs old or something? I don't know how you guys keep track?
How do you guys keep track of who has what? PIM *seems* to do a good job of a catalog of sorts, but the other vendors have stuff that hasn't changed in the 4 years I've been looking? Hall has a catalog, but that's like 15 yrs old or something? I don't know how you guys keep track?
Pops,
How do we keep track? I imagine someone out there is SOOOOOOO organized they have this all written down. As for the rest of us, I'd say its what a BB like this one is all about. You have a question, just ask. I don't believe you can come up with a question that someone on this BB or the DeTomaso BB can't answer. This car has had a devoted following for some years now and owners (or previous owners) are more than happy to share their experiences (I know I wish I'd found this BB earlier in my "restoration"). As for the vendors, you're quite right. From my experience some vendors' catalogs are way out of date: prices aren't accurate, availability isn't accurate, websites aren't updated. Some are better than others. Experience will teach you. I think I've used every vendor. The best way is to give them a call. Most are glad to give advice and provide an update on products. I've spent hours on the phone with a couple of them (Pat Mical and Dennis Quella for example) and they are a WEALTH of information. (I can vouch for Pat's headers. He made me up a set of Aussie 2V headers that are beautiful. Now I just gotta get them installed..........)
Seats are a prime example. There are a ton of options. Some are better than others. Some have been tried and turned out great. Others have been tried and turned out, well, not so great.
The bottom line is, if you plan on doing something, ask about it first. Get all the information that's out there and then make an informed decision. And maybe save you time, money and frustration.
How do we keep track? I imagine someone out there is SOOOOOOO organized they have this all written down. As for the rest of us, I'd say its what a BB like this one is all about. You have a question, just ask. I don't believe you can come up with a question that someone on this BB or the DeTomaso BB can't answer. This car has had a devoted following for some years now and owners (or previous owners) are more than happy to share their experiences (I know I wish I'd found this BB earlier in my "restoration"). As for the vendors, you're quite right. From my experience some vendors' catalogs are way out of date: prices aren't accurate, availability isn't accurate, websites aren't updated. Some are better than others. Experience will teach you. I think I've used every vendor. The best way is to give them a call. Most are glad to give advice and provide an update on products. I've spent hours on the phone with a couple of them (Pat Mical and Dennis Quella for example) and they are a WEALTH of information. (I can vouch for Pat's headers. He made me up a set of Aussie 2V headers that are beautiful. Now I just gotta get them installed..........)
Seats are a prime example. There are a ton of options. Some are better than others. Some have been tried and turned out great. Others have been tried and turned out, well, not so great.
The bottom line is, if you plan on doing something, ask about it first. Get all the information that's out there and then make an informed decision. And maybe save you time, money and frustration.
quote:Originally posted by george pence:
How about a Pat Mical header featuring a properly designed collector, exhausting through something like the MagnaFlow mufflers that PI Motorsports sells with new 2 1/2" tubing connecting collector to muffler? Tubing bent & welded by your local muffler shop?
cowboy from hell
Hey, that's exactly what I've got! Don't even need to get the tubing bent. Pat will supply the 2 1/2" tubing from the collector (3"!) to the muffler. All you need to do is attach the muffler of your choice. Beautiful setup. Ceramic coated even.
That's cool. Yeah, I guess I'm so use to cars where there are a couple of vendors and so much is repop'd. I can't fabricate, so bolt ons work better for me.
Its just a tad frustrating to see cool stuff in a catalog and it isn't available, then I just want a tailpipe, muffler and tips, and that *seems* hard to find as well. I'll learn.
And seats, lord, thats just a big 'ole can of worms if you can't fab the brackets. :-)
Thanks all, I appreciate it.
Its just a tad frustrating to see cool stuff in a catalog and it isn't available, then I just want a tailpipe, muffler and tips, and that *seems* hard to find as well. I'll learn.
And seats, lord, thats just a big 'ole can of worms if you can't fab the brackets. :-)
Thanks all, I appreciate it.
Well i've done it. I cut the guts out and thanks to CAT7195 for the instructions and 4NHOTROD for the idea of moore HP. Its true i do notice more power and i can't wait till i DYNO again and the sound is great at accell. Thanks guy's If you come EAST u'll see it at POCONO MEMORIAL WEEKEND.
What is your tailpipe size to the mufflers?
Pops,
regarding seats, contact Gary Herrig. He sells corvette seats for the Pantera. I think He's sold 70+ sets so far. I got the first set that he made back in 2002. I still love them.
his e-mail is: glherrig@yahoo.com
good luck,
John
regarding seats, contact Gary Herrig. He sells corvette seats for the Pantera. I think He's sold 70+ sets so far. I got the first set that he made back in 2002. I still love them.
his e-mail is: glherrig@yahoo.com
good luck,
John