need tool to remove nut rear hub

picture of nut

http://www.ipsco.org/

It was 30 years back, but I borrowed one from a local machine shop.

when I recently took them off, I used the blacksmith method

I have not measured to determine what size, maybe someone knows
http://www.warbytools.com.au/f...+Axial+Nut+Flyer.pdf

Keeping the socket square on the nut is critical. this type helps
http://www.ipsco.org/Pantera_f...Catalog%20013111.pdf go to page 22

Hi Bill,
I've seen those on a number of web sites... believe at Hall and PrePro ( nut tool )

Isn't one of the nuts "reverse threaded"?

Rocky

quote:

Originally posted by Rocky:
Isn't one of the nuts "reverse threaded"?
..

YES!!

It should be stamped "Left" and "Right" (but in Italian)

sinister e destra i.e. left and right.

I bought the tool, but still had to farm the job out to get them undone, they were tight as a
Dutchmans purse.

Usually tightened to 300+ ft./lbs.

Here in America, we don't usually think of the Danes as "parsimonious". The Scottish are the ones I stereotype as "niggardly" (look it up if you aren't sure what it means).

Did you hear the story about the time the barnstormer went to Scotland and was offering rides in his biplane?

The Scotsman wanted a ride but he wanted his wife to ride with him for the same price.

So he argued with the pilot for about an hour and finally they agreed that if the Scotsman and his wife both flew, and yelled or cried out they would have to pay for both, but if they were silent through the entire ride they would ride for the price of one.

The pilot took them up and did his darndest to try to make them scream. They flew upside down, through barns, under bridges, and up canyons. But the Scotsman remained silent.

When they landed the pilot said "I am very impressed. I was sure sure you would yell in fear or terror".

The Scotsman said "Well - you almost had me one time..."

The pilot said "Oh yeah? When was that?"

The Scotsman said "When you turned the plane upside down and my wife fell out!"

300 ft-lbs on stub-axle spanner nuts is MINIMUM torque, in spite of an old factory spec that said '250 ft-lbs'. That size thread in mild steel strips at around 1000 ft-lbs so no worry. New axles made from 300-M steel would strip at even higher torque. To make a difficult job even more challenging, some use Red Lock-tite on those nuts. I like the type of spanner-socket that fully encloses the nut for less chance of cocking sideways. This socket is called a side-pin spanner & is very strong; the factory socket was a face-pin spanner. I broke one & finally blew the offending nut off with a cutting torch. I could smell hot Lock-tite. No damage to the axle threads.

Giant torque wrenches are often sold 'lightly used' on E-Bay, cheap. I bought a 0-600 ft-lbs Snap-On torque wrench with a 4ft long take-apart handle for less than $100 (still made; new price $600). It weighs 10+ lbs, is bulky and of limited use in most home shops. Exceptions are Pantera & Mangusta axle nuts (one size smaller than Pantera) and Austin Mini flywheel nuts. I think there's a gland-nut in Mazda rotary engines that's torqued around 300 ft-lbs, but that's about it. Sometimes, car clubs buy these things for communal use.

There are also two different Pantera axle nuts- you have the full-height type while early cars had a castle-type nut that was much worse to undo with a factory socket. The redesigned socket now sold by all the vendors tightens/untightens both early & late style nuts without fuss. One club member made his own 'wrench' out of a piece of steel water pipe and 4 pieces of square key stock brazed inside. Looked awful; worked fine. Good luck.

Thanks for all the info and love the joker.
What is a Tork limiter some people are referring to .Do you recommend replacing axles with the new ones? The barrings are they Timkins tapper or ball? Where can I get them and what size are they?

I didn't read any thing about "tork limiter"

I would suggest contacting the vendors about replacement bearings. As I have the basic sizes from my searches, the detail specs for use as an axle needs to be considered.

Rear Upright Bearings:
Outer = 6308-2RS deep groove single row ball bearing 40 x 90 x 23 mm;
Inner = 6208-2RS deep groove ball bearing 40 x 80 x 18 mm

quote:

Where can I get them and what size are they?

http://www.saccrestorations.net/wheel-bearings/

Machine One!
Use ONLY Tool Steel!

3/4" Bar 4 Feet Long. Forget Torque Wrench and Torque Values!!
You get it as TIGHT as You Can! How do you keep the Hub from Turning?? You'll figure IT Out!!
Use NO Lock-Tite! If You Insist, Use Only The BLUE, NOT the RED!!
Drivers' Side has the 'Left-Hand Thread'!!(Left Side of Pantera when viewed from the Rear). You turn it CLOCKWISE to LOOSEN! Probably WHY You couldn't Get it Off...You Were Tightening IT!
When the Tool Fits Exactly, The 'Pins' Won't Shear.

What about going to tapered wheel bearings . How much should it cost and who can do modification to up right . I don't want to put back roller bearings after doing all this work . I purchased tool today to remove nut . I now know the the torque multiplayer is put on torque wrench to increases wrench torque. To remove nut. I going to bolt hub to old steel rim, weld square tubing to rim and put in trailer receiver of truck. Trailer rims fit good . When I painted car all for wheels where from one of my trailers.

To be honest, doing the rear axle work is VERY EASY work with the right tools. I think people make it seem much harder than it really is.

Bill, give me a call to discuss...

Scott

Tapered roller bearing conversions are problematic, mostly due to the lack of shops offering such work, and (IMHO) the designs they use to do it. 20 yrs ago we were getting lots of stub-axle breakage so I converted one of my own rear uprights to tapered rollers- of my own design- out of curiosity to see if there was any detectable advantage. The other upright was left stock. Result: the ONLY advantage with tapered roller bearings is, you can remove the axle while the assembly is still in the car, with only hand tools. This is because in my design, the axle nut is torqued to only 10-12 ft-lbs and mechanically locked just like front wheel tapered roller bearings, and the rear axle need not be a press fit into these bearings. Neither upright (with rollers and ball bearings) have given the slightest bit of trouble on our street Pantera, both bearing types run at about the same temp and neither type makes any noise. Conclusion: benefits not worth the trouble & expense.

The biggest problem with stock rear ball bearings is, about 1/3 of all Panteras were assembled at the factory with improper press-fit dimensions on stock mild steel stub- axles. So under high torque from the engine, heat and stress, the axles start to move a little in the bearings. The bearing races are much harder than the axles so the fit disappears as the axles 'fret'. With worn axles, 0.001" of wear will wobble a tire. So the rear tire starts to wobble, ruining the handling and eventually that tire. Given a correct interference press fit (0.0005" to 0.0008"), ball bearings work fine. To check this, you need a precision micrometer that can measure 1.5000" to the 4th decimal. Most shops do not have one so they guess.

New billet axles on the market today are either made from 4130-chrome moly steel (Hall Pantera), or 300-M (Wilkinson & most of the other vendors). They are much more carefully sized for the req'd press fit than 45-yr-old NOS axles, and the steels used are stronger. Both these new axles are suitable for pro endurance racing while any stock axle so used with sticky race tires will probably break at the 4-hr mark. Neither new axle is hollow like OEM, either- which also helps strength. I recommend STILL checking replacement axle dimensions before assembling rear uprights.

Also worth noting is that the distance tube #14 might be of a too soft steel. I found the nuts in my very early uprights loose, and I believe the soft tube is the cause. That might be fixed on later cars.
For the nuts I bought a socket for KM nuts. Google "KM nut socket".

Thanks you for all the information .I will be going with the roller bearings . The roller bearing would cost 975 to due , If the roller bearings lasted 30 years. My car is more or less a show car and never sees much rain. I think they will be fine.I already purchased socket from vendor $65.00 but thank you

any update about the bearing replacements?

Yes, not that hard to due. Purchase parts from scott .Replace the bearings . The old ones had been replace by someone already . I think only one was bad and some one tryed to grease but the new barings are seal units they left the old dust shields on . I spoke to scott and will be removing them . I pulled the old studs in with a lug nut ,wrong thing to do for they now spin in the shaft scott recommend hammering in or pressing in . I have ordered new ones and waiting for them to come. The brass bushings on the up rights where a little hard to remove but with a punch i bent them in and then hammer them out with the old pin.

quote:

Originally posted by pantera74Bills6976:
Thanks you for all the information .I will be going with the roller bearings . The roller bearing would cost 975 to due

What does the $975 include?

Larry Stock at Pantera Parts Connection does the bearings all fitted for $350 per side.

You will need access to a hydraulic press to press out the axles and press them back in the new bearings. Put the axle in the freezer for a couple hours and warm the upright in the over (130F) to make it easier and prevent galling of the axle.

If the old bearings have already been replaced and failing then that is indicative of other problems. It is very common for the bearing to spin on the axle and damage the axle or the axle no longer a sufficient press fit. Also as stated the center spacer can get damaged or the thrust washer on the outer side of the axle. ANY deformation of these parts and you will be rebuilding them again in a couple thousand miles, it really is quite critical.

The bearing retainer plate screws can be tough to get out sometimes as folks tend to Locktite them in, some heat can help.

We use an old wheel and air impact wrench to ensure the wheel studs are pulled in correctly, there is not very much clearance on the heads to the rotor.

The axle nut is also a cinch nut designed for single use so can feel real tight before hitting the 300 ft/lbs. Again a heavy duty impact air gun is the way to go.

Good luck,
Julian

Around $1000 isn't far off. The smaller OD inner ball bearing is not available anywhere in the known world as a tapered roller, so the uprights must be precision-machined to take two outer-sized bearings. It may also require two NEW outer stub axles- possibly at extra cost. The slightest blemish or repair on a stock axle will require one to replace that often perfectly good axle with a brand new one. Also be prepared be told to NOT EVER drive your car in the wet. The commercial arrangement I've seen uses a front seal that merely brushes the axle shaft rather than gripping it, so going thru a commercial car wash or even hitting a puddle in your driveway can force water into the bearings and rust them. There is not even an attempt at an inboard seal. Good luck.

I going with the ball bearing s .I think if they lasted the past 16 years with the 3o5 50 15 on them and it only look s like one failed because it got water in it. Plus it not that hard to replace them .I think i will replace washer nut and spacer too. The barings where replace once before and think it is a good ideal to go with all new parts. I can't believe that the studs spun so easily . Looks like i will be waiting for more parts.

quote:

I pulled the old studs in with a lug nut ,wrong thing to do for they now spin in the shaft scott recommend hammering in or pressing in

Didn't the stud heads have a flat spot which touches the brake disc hat then, to prevent them from spinning?

quote:

Originally posted by Kid:

quote:

I pulled the old studs in with a lug nut ,wrong thing to do for they now spin in the shaft scott recommend hammering in or pressing in

Didn't the stud heads have a flat spot which touches the brake disc hat then, to prevent them from spinning?

Yes, stock rotors have a recess the flat sits against but not all aftermarket hats have such a recessed ring, I had my hats turned to add that.

Julian