New clutch issues

Does the clutch pedal engage immediately or is there travel in the pedal?

For a Long (original Ford style), you need about .050" clearance at full travel (with a feeler gauge). With a diaphram (Center Force), about .045. MINIMUMS.

IF you had .050" previously and it is .025" now, something has changed in your set up. That is a big change.

The thickness of the discs in my experience new is around .375". That is what I expect to see in a new disc. What can change that is the amount of Marcel built into the disc.

Aftermarket clutches intended for other vehicles like a Mustang for instance may not work in the Pantera.

IF you can't find the additional travel necessary in the Pantera slave cylinder, then the only alternative left to you is to seek out a clutch disc that is thinner. That is the simplest solution at this point.

I don't mean to disparage so called "clutch experts" BUT often in regards to the Pantera clutch, "their experience" IN OTHER VEHICLES, is mostly irrelevant.

You need a Pantera specific clutch. That includes all of the hardware like the long throw slave.

There is no other way to do this.

Also, be aware that you can get a brand new clutch assembly to work "cold" with minimal clearance but as you drive it, it will heat up and those clearances will close down some.

That's where you start to feel resistance in the trans hanging up going into gear. So if you had it working cold with tighter clearance, that was false hope.

The diaphram type is easier to set up since it needs less clearance. The Center Force dual friction for the Pantera is a good way to go unless you go to Dennis at Pantera Performance Center.

That really is his recipe. It works but only in the way he tells you to prepare it. Trying to circumvent him by copying it yourself may not work. It is really in how the Chef prepared the ingredients.

OH! A sure sign that you are already in trouble with a Pantera and unpacking the new clutch with a Long style is that the counter weights on the three arms on the pressure plate ("clutch cover") are still there. Those have to be removed to clear the inside of the ZF bellhouse, so right there you would already know that it is the wrong clutch.

To my memory, I never saw an "original" Pantera disc with "modified reduced Marcel" but I have no doubts that it did exist for at least some cars.

Exactly how Detomaso slipped that past Ford at the time is beyond me? That was "tricky"!

FWIW, I changed the clutch in my Pantera a few years ago and found that the gorilla who previously worked on the car installed the wrong clutch. The counter weights must have made quite the racket when the engine was started as the weights hammered the bellhousing.

Well I suppose that now your bellhousing is considered
clearanced"?

I'm very sure that this isn't the first time this has ever happened in a Pantera?

I'm wondering now if the counterweights would even be effective or if the "fingers" or "finger pivots" got bent up also?

Thanks for your responses.

SteveBucanan: There is pedal travel before it starts to engage the pressure plate.

PanteraDoug: This whole new setup was purchased through a Pantera Vendor.

Could be a bad pressure plate. I'm thinking I will have to take it back out to do some investigating.

Since there is pedal travel, I am wondering if there might be air in the system still

I have one of those speed bleaders but I did the bleeding the old fashion way. My wife pushed the pedal and I opened and closed the bleeder. Replaced most of the fluid.

Still might be air. I was thinking that the travel of the slave is a little over an inch and I measured that.

Maybe do a gravity bleed. Put rags around the slave, open the bleeder and and let it drip. Perhaps let out an inch of fluid at the reservoir.

The clutch was working fine. The reason for taking it out was the TO bearing was bad. So while I was in there I decided to replace everything. It didn't have many miles on the clutch itself. I had replaced the TO bearing last year and drove it under 100 miles when it started making noise. I've driven sticks all my driving life. The vendor said I was riding the cluch. A good reason for him not to give me a replacement.

When I puld the old one out I didn't disconnect the slave line. Just removed it from the trans and set it to the side. Not sure how it would have ended up with air.

Getting ready to pull the trans so I can take a look at things.

@haydude posted:

Thanks for your responses.

SteveBucanan: There is pedal travel before it starts to engage the pressure plate.

PanteraDoug: This whole new setup was purchased through a Pantera Vendor.

Could be a bad pressure plate. I'm thinking I will have to take it back out to do some investigating.

You need to set it up as if it is a constant contact throwout bearing, i.e., therefore, the bearing at rest sits in contact with the clutch fingers.

There should be a little play in the clutch foot pedal. Enough that you can move it a little with your hand.

You actually have to work backwards in that you need to place the feeler gauge in the clutch and tighten down on the system until it holds the clutch disengaged.

If you don't have the long throw slave cylinder in, you should. I think that the number you are looking for is 1-1/8"+ travel. It is almost there. I think this is an adjustment issue?

I personally have had issues with "Long pressure plates". When you go to bolt them down, sometimes not all of the bolt holes align with the flywheel and you need to "twist" the dam pressure plate to get all of the retaining bolts started, then tighten them in a pattern like you would with an intake manifold. They are stamped steel and I think that the "high performance" pressure springs twist them some?

I haven't had that issue with the diaphram style since those pressure plates (clutch cover) are cast.

Be patient with this setup. Panteras really are a pita to set up but once you get the hang of it the fog tends to clear and you see the picture.

I'm also using a Mcleod setup from one of the Pantera vendors. I'm guessing it may be the same as you have.

I had to go with a long throw slave cylinder from Larry Stock to get enough engagement.  I also had a brand-new stock clutch master cylinder go out during the install process and had to move to a Wilwood master.  Wilwood does require some light modification.

It took solid half day of adjustments/bleeding to get it to work.

John

#3590

Transaxle is out, I'll post some pictures after I clean up a bit.

Well, it seems that the new clutch disk and old one both have a .32" thickness.

The 3 forks on the old pressure plate seem to be about an 1/8" taller than the new one? Both plates have the same overall depth when not on the flywheel.

I got the transaxle back in with the old disk and pressure plate. Wanting to see if it goes back to working correctly. That will also give me a chance to get a long throw slave if needed.

I don't think that the lever arm height difference on the new v. old pressure plate is a significant factor. If the arms are longer to the pivots then they give you more leverage and reduce the effort at the pedal a little.

You do want to measure the difference in Marcel between the two discs.

Place them both flat on the same surface and use a straight edge, something like a carpenters framing square and compare the heights of the friction surfaces.a

This will give you an indication of the amount of "spring" built into the disc for the Marcel effect.

You are looking for the same height or hopefully less on the new disc.

Compare the two numbers and remember you were trying to gain at least another 1/16" in travel (.0625") if not more.

An increase in the sprung height of the disc (the Marcel) would be a main culpret here.

I think that you probalby find that everything is nearly the same and the differences could be explained by wear on the old clutch?

The simplest solution is probably going to be to change out the existing slave for a "long throw" which probably will just show in the current listings as the "standard Pantera slave"?

The new clutch is pretty. Do the lever arms show signs of the counter weights being cut off or made without them?

I'm surprised to see counterweights on your old pressure plate.  The pic below is from an original Pantera pressure plate.  Has your bell housing been "clearanced" for those counterweights?

Or, is your old pressure plate a 10.5" instead of an 11" ?

I wonder if the PP finger lengths are different between the two PP's ?  A slightly longer finger (measured from the center of the pivot) would require more "throw" from the slave cyl.

John

The new clutch doesn't have the counterweights. The old one does and now the housing has been clearances for them as panteradoug pointed out.

The PO installed the clutch so I'm sure his mechanic heard the clearanceing process.

The long throw out slave and possibly a new master is next. Thats again everyone for your feedback. There are so many variables with aftermarket pieces it's amazing anything works.

Ken