PANTERA MARKET ?

I just sold my 72 to a fellow in the UK. I had 5 times the inquiries from the UK over North America. I think most people want to spend $40k max on a narrow body P-car. When you get close to $50k, it gets tough, no matter how nice it is.
Just my 2 cents.
Will

Hello everyone,

I just signed up today as a member of this website, and I cannot think of a more timely question for someone to have asked, i.e., what is the current state of the Pantera market.

Last month I suffered a minor heart attack and purchasing a Pantera is now the one and only item on my "bucket list".

I remember visiting Mayberry Lincoln Mercury in the LA area as a teenager and drooling over the row of new GTS's that were lined up in a row and wishing that I could have afforded to purchase one of them.

The time has come for me to fullfill my dream. However, I have also noticed that "nice" cars presented for sale on ebay are not making the reserve. What do these cars eventually sell for? Or, do these cars simply get taken off the market and the owner hangs on to them and try to market them at a later date?

Thank you for the question, John Kazlo.

quote:

What do these cars eventually sell for? Or, do these cars simply get taken off the market and the owner hangs on to them and try to market them at a later date?

Depends on everyones situation. In my case, I had a few offers that were 10-12% below asking that I did not accept. I knew that it was a quality car and I wasn't in need of a mortgage payment. Some others might get anxious or need the money and let it go for less than it's true value.
Most guys get what the car is worth if they wait. But how long is one willing to wait?
It amazes me that most don't want to pay a premium for a quality car. They'll spend 7 grand less for a car that is going to need $15 to $20k in the next few years.
Will

Things are way down but it isn't just Panteras. There are some screaming deals on Vipers, Vettes and Porsches too. Anyone seen how cheap pleasure boats are right now? My good friend picked up a new ZO6 with very low miles for $50,000 a few weeks ago. What do you think that does to the price of everything else thats cheaper than that. The situation isn't helped the fact the Pantera is being forgotten. You rarely ever see one any more and there are side issues like the magazine going away the transaxle prices. There is no more publicity for the car and what there is can be bad. A Pantera is a luxury item. You don't need a Pantera. I think we all know that a car that costs more to start will be cheaper in the long run but most guys can barely scrape together the $30,000 or so it takes to get their first Pantera and there are a lot of good alternative cars at that price point. I've been drinking the Pantera / Ford Kool Aid since they came out but if I could get $40,000 or so for my car today I would turn around and get a Vette, Viper,or something else where the prices are in the toilet tomorrow.

Korina, are you saying your car might be for sale? Any info/pics?

A German dude bought my orange car right on the spot. Seems they have more money overseas than here. Was sad to see it go out of the US, but if that happens more often I figure that helps the rarity here in the US. The cars are nice bang for the buck, but I think the general public still sees them as ancient overheating rustbuckets. I agree, once you get over $40K or $50K you enter into areas with more options, such as Vipers, Vettes etc...you know, all those common cars that will depreciate. Its the same with any collector car, 55 Chevy or whatever. In general, the other common cars are just daily drivers, but ours are more like collector items.

I see the PURE GOLD car sold already (link below), so I don't think we can say that cars are not selling. I am sure that went for a nice price.
http://www.pim.net/puregold.html

quote:

A German dude bought my orange car right on the spot. Seems they have more money overseas than here.

I doubt they have any MORE money, it is just that now their money is worth more in US dollars.

A couple of years ago, a European buyer who had 30,000 Euros to spend could get about a $31,000 USD car.

Today, that same 30,000 Euro is worth about $46,000 USD.

As for eBay pricing. About six years ago I found - didn't buy - 2511 on eBay. No offers were made. Found out his reserve had been $50,000. After an inspection visit and about four months of back and forth telephone dealing, I bought it for $42,000.

It is a good time to buy as some owners are upside down on other financial aspects of their life, and the 'toy' car has got to go. But in an international market, those European shoppers are now at a HUGE advantage to a US buyer.

Larry

I first started seriously looking for a Pantera in 1999. At that time, I found price range to be about $20-30k. Sure, there were cars priced above and below but this seemed to be the trading range. I actually visited six cars in person, usually coordinated with business travel, before I bought a local (amazingly) car in 2000. In the lower end of that range I found decent drivers that were usually a little on the ratty side cosmetically. On the upper end, I found very good cars from very original to modified that needed little to nothing if you were satisfied with their presentation and how they were set up.

The car I bought was a very low mile 74 GTS in excellent condition. I paid $22.5k and based upon my year of patient searching, I viewed it as a car that was upper end of the quality range for lower end of price. –An easy decision especially considering it was only 60 miles from home and I didn’t need to incur either cost of a plane ticket or transportation of the car, I felt it was a greater deal yet.

Collector car prices today are somewhat depressed at the moment but it’s undoubtedly a temporary condition related to the broader economy.

For Panteras, it’s hard to say, because as noted, asking isn’t getting, but seems to me that the comparable trading range today is $30-$45k (maybe $50k tops?). If that’s so, Panteras have participated in collector car appreciation perhaps on the order of 50% over the last 8 years, no doubt somewhat more recently aided by the weak dollar as previously noted in this post.

So Panteras have appreciated but not to the extent of some of the other US muscle cars. I doubt they will see US Pony car appreciation because as Korina rightfully states, they just never had the following or notoriety, thus participate less in the collector car market run up.

None of this was a deterrent to me. It wasn’t an investment decision and I’m keeping it boys. -What a great car.

Kelly

quote:

Originally posted by DOES 200:
A German dude bought my orange car right on the spot. Seems they have more money overseas than here. Was sad to see it go out of the US, but if that happens more often I figure that helps the rarity here in the US. The cars are nice bang for the buck, but I think the general public still sees them as ancient overheating rustbuckets. I agree, once you get over $40K or $50K you enter into areas with more options, such as Vipers, Vettes etc...you know, all those common cars that will depreciate. Its the same with any collector car, 55 Chevy or whatever. In general, the other common cars are just daily drivers, but ours are more like collector items.

I see the PURE GOLD car sold already (link below), so I don't think we can say that cars are not selling. I am sure that went for a nice price.
http://www.pim.net/puregold.html

I do not know how long that anyone can count on the European "gravy train" to continue.

http://www.forbes.com/markets/2008/01/04/eurozone-infla...tml?feed=rss_markets

Four,

Lucky you only have one thing on your list. It's the same dream we all had - and acted on sooner or later.

Forget about investment. The return is in driving it, playing with it, just sitting in it. Heck, just opening the garage door and looking at is worth all the money I have spent on it.

I got my 1973 in the early 1980s. I paid $22k for it back then. I spent about $20k on it over the years and sold it for around $50k in 2000. I bought the 1982 GT5 in 1987 for around $55 and have been spending money on it ever since. And will do so as long as I can.

It is a better investment than any stock or bond or business that I invested in. In a life filled with problems, stress, aggravation and effort - the return on this cat is my happiness. A great investment and worth every cent.

If a Pantera has been on your mind since Mayberry, then Dude, it's time to act.

Spend as much as you can afford and you will get as much cat as you can pay for. If you have a lot to spend you can buy someone else huge investment for a lot less than they spent. Probably half.

If you have a little, you can still buy a decent car for $35k and improve it as you go.

I for one have never bothered looking at the "Pantera Market." This is a keeper. It will never be a daily driver. And as such, there is nothing else I would rather have.

Vipers, Vettes and Porches are all nice but they are in more of the daily driver category. And unless you're a young single guy, probably too small for the family and dogs.

When my time comes I won't ever be sorry that I didn't have a prancing horse or snorting bull. I am a happy Pantera owner. One of many.

David,

What does the French qoute on the bottom of your license plate say?

Michael

Hello David,

Your post is well taken.

What I do not know is if I will keep the vehicle for 2 months to get it "out of my system" or that I will like the car so much that I will keep it for 10 years.

That is the financial consideration that I need to be cognizant of.

To be honest , as a non owner when you are looking at a car from 35 to 60 big ones the world is your oyster. Yes I do want/ need a wide body car but at that price range one must wait and gather alternatives. Take for instance that 5s for sale now, this car is less than an hours drive from my door and I haven't even gone to see it. If the seller was even remotely reasonable I would have bought it within hours of its listing. At the seller's ludicrous price of 80gs I could put myself in a well bought Aston Martin, Countach, Z06 or whatever and still come away with a warranty in most cases. You have to really love the Pantera or any car for that matter to part with that kind of loot and it is still a crapshoot in the end. What gets me is in this case when did a car that basically sat for a few years unattended to suddenly appreciate 20-30 grand just for rotting away?? These are the kind of attitudes that keep me Pantera-less and admiring from a distance.

Cybo - "Je me souviens" means, "I remember." They must be talking about gas prices!

Four - Well, if you waited 40 years to get this dream car and then it's out of your system in two months, it probably is not the car for you.

D&D - I don't know which car you are referring to, but you can get a great Pantera for 80k - not some dejected cat that's been idle for years.

I had several cars on my want list when I decided to pull the trigger and buy my dream car. The Pantera was the first car to ever make it to my dream list. Along my journey in life several others made it to that mental list. So I listed all those exotic cars, went out and looked at them, investigated the club scene on the internet and narrowed my choices to two, the NSX & the Pantera. The NSX was the logical choice, the Pantera the emotional choice. Then one day by chance a NSX pulled in front of me and I followed it for several miles. The fact that a NSX was in front of me did nothing for me, it didn't stir my soul. Right then I decided the Pantera was the car.

I bought one, and haven't regretted the "emotional" decision. This car IS NOT a monetary investment. It is an investment in yourself. You are telling yourself you deserve this dream, that you have denied yourself long enough. That you love yourself.

If you love the car, it becomes your Italian mistress. Every once in a while it will bust your balls, but you'll keep coming back for more, because you can't get it out from under your skin. Because when you are behind the wheel on an open road, there's not quite anything like the thrill it gives you. These are the signs that you bought the right dream car.

DO NOT buy a Pantera as a financial investment. It is a hobby. A very good looking, very fast hobby.

cowboy from hell

I know what you mean, George, that's why I have both.

I too am of the mind — as David, George and others note that buying a Pantera as a financial investment is not a wise idea. However, buying a Pantera as an hobby car/passion outlet is, IMHO, safer financially than a Corvette or a Viper. Those are dropping like rocks in value and are soon just low-priced used cars where a major repair could end up costing the value of the car.

As far as collectable value goes, that GT5S in NY is one of the original (vs cloned) 120 or so produced by DeTomaso and I think it is quite reasonably priced based on the collector market for low-volume sports cars. I doubt the buyer of that car would come out behind much in 5 years—especially compared to a Vette. On the other hand, if you find an $80K Countach that doesn't need $50K in rebuilds, that would also be a solid investment (if ANY investment can be solid).

Buy the best you can, drive it and have fun now. Let your estate worry about how bad an investment it was "later".

quote:

Originally posted by David B:
Cybo - "Je me souviens" means, "I remember." They must be talking about gas prices!

David,

I guess the word we use 'souvenir' (a reminder) is derived from that word. Thanks.

Do any Canadians know what is being 'remembered'? (Besides the gas prices, of course!)

Michael

I believe that the market has been effected by the economy. I see a lot of different businesses that are in the dumps right now. While my business is hanging in there, alot of the subcontractors that I deal with daily are really slow and hurting. I see alot of people that had nice vacations planned making changes. I still think that that things will get better, hopefully after the election. Election years always seem a little hard on the economy, and then you add in the fuel prices. I sure hope we are able to rein in the fuel prices some how. I am paying 4.59 for diesel and have three trucks filling up every morning.

quote:

Originally posted by Cyboman:
Do any Canadians know what is being 'remembered'?
Michael

The general pop consensus is that the French remember getting their asses kicked on the Plains of Abraham (Quebec) spelling the end of French rule in NE America.

Properly, IMHO, the slogan should read "Je me souviens partiellement" (I partially remember), as the graciousness of the English allowed Quebec to exist as a largely French centre maintaining its language, culture, religion and traditions.

We are going thru somewhat of an economic slowdown here in Europe too, but confidence is much higher than in the US. The Euro buyers will continue to take advantage of the weak dollar as long as the exchange rate is favourable.
I have just bought my second Pantera in the US, and it has cost way less than a comparable car here, and I personally know of two mangustas that have also made their way here recently. It will in the medium term only reinforce the value of the cars that remain in the US.
Steve

http://www.pim.net/puregold.html[/QUOTE]

I do not know how long that anyone can count on the European "gravy train" to continue.

http://www.forbes.com/markets/2008/01/04/eurozone-infla...tml?feed=rss_markets[/QUOTE]

Great thread.

I bought my dream car a few months back and have put about 1400 miles on since. If it's not raining, I can't let a day go by when I don't hit the road. I agree with David (the guy who convinced me that "life's too short" NOT to have a Pantera) that owning, driving and looking at my cat has been entirely worth it alone.

However, I am not so sure that the Pantera is NOT a good investment. It all depends on the circumstance, I suppose. If you do your homework and make a good, non-emotional buy ... I think you've made a great investment. Maintenance fees and mods will add up over the years, but I cannot forsee that the value of our cats will doing anything but increase as they becoming increasingly rare in the market.

In driving about, I get a kick out of seeing the plethora of Porsches and Corvettes on the road - none of them any different from the rest. So plain, boring. The Pantera, on the other hand, is so unique that no two cats are the same. And they (currently) cost WAY LESS!

I seriously thought that it was going to take me more than a year to find a cat and to save the additional $$$ that would be required to pull the trigger. Well, due to the slumping US economy and the strong Canadian dollar, I was able to achieve my dream sooner. The stars simply aligned as there is no way I would have been able to get the same value for money a year ago - or perhaps in the future.

I would have paid double for my cat if that's what it would have taken. I would have had to wait a few more years, but I would have owned one eventually.

Bottom line is that now is an excellent time to be looking for your first Pantera.

quote:

Originally posted by four walling:

What I do not know is if I will keep the vehicle for 2 months to get it "out of my system" or that I will like the car so much that I will keep it for 10 years.

I had that very same thought - a few times, in fact. As I flew in to Phoenix to inspect and test drive her for the first time ... just before I picked her up ... and sometimes (still) after a few rainy days of not driving her.

You know what? EVERY single time I sit in the car, I KNOW why I did this. I don't even have to fire her up to know that I made the right decision. I just have to walk in to the garage. And, let me tell you, when I do fire her up and pull out on the highway ... pure bliss.

There are few things in life that can provide a similar experience.

My question is where is the best place to advertise a Pantera for sale, I just put an ad in the cars for sale section first, since my thought was that people who visit this site have a better idea of what the cars are worth and what it takes to build a quality Pantera.

Any suggestions who be appreciated, although everytime I look at the car, I want to keep it.

I bought my Pantera a couple years ago, but after about a 10 year Pantera "absence". I actually thought I had it out of my system.

I just got the hots for a nostalgic, fun, romping car. I had a 996tt (and no intention to get rid of it) so that was my 'comfortable, reliable, trip car') but started looking at Panteras.

Honestly, you'll NEVER know if you'll keep the car 2 months or 10 years, but do you know that about anything? So buy a good to great one (please avoid the 'bad' unless you've some streak of masochism in you) and try it out.

I paid $31k for my one owner car and have put about $25k in it. A ridiculous amount of money and I DEFINITELY could've 'saved' money by buying a done #1 condition car. Fine. But I've actually ENJOYED (capitalized for a reason) the redo. Met some great folks, have some stories to share, and have a very fun, reliable car.

Honestly, I enjoy driving my Pantera around more than my other sports cars because of how unique it is.

People ask about it all the time, and in a pure beauty contest, it's a flat out winner. This board will set you straight on what to do, what NOT to do, and how to extract maximum enjoyment. (There's that word again.)

Just pick a good one and go for it. I mean, really, who cares if you own it, have fun, spend some money, and IF you decide to sell you break even or lose a bit? If you learned something, had a good time, and have a memory that no one can ever take... was it a loss?

But if you come out ahead financially, like many believe you will, it's just a bonus.

I agree with Hudson. I love the Pantera because it is unique, especially the widebody. I have a silver Porsche that looks (almost) like every other silver Porsche (but with much cooler wheels) and people could care less when I drive by. But take the Pantera out, and people have questions every time I get out of it.

I wonder what will happen to the value of our cars as they slip from the public consciousness. There are only a few thousand of them, and we don't drive them enough to get a new generation interested. The economy will continue to go up and down, but supply and demand is the battle we face long term...increasing demand is the challenge.

I hang out with two groups of people that will be future Pantera owners...young exotic owners, and import tuner street racers. Is that typical for you guys? More of a hot rod crowd? Most of my friends drive Lambos and Ferraris - and one of them is thinking about getting a Pantera!

R.

quote:

Originally posted by RobertVegas:

I wonder what will happen to the value of our cars as they slip from the public consciousness. There are only a few thousand of them, and we don't drive them enough to get a new generation interested. The economy will continue to go up and down, but supply and demand is the battle we face long term...increasing demand is the challenge.



R.

I might be biased as an owner, but the great thing about the car is the way the car looks. It is timeless not trendy. It is one of the few cars that look good from any angle and that is rare. That's the reason the has been so popular and will continue to be.

Just my 2 cents.

We got our car just a year ago, we found it for sale in a trader type publication. I will never forget getting home from work that day and Kim told me that the Round Up had got there today. Then she told me I need to look at page 64. Thats what it took to start the trip we have been on for the last year with 1717. Just a note Kim and I tend to race to see who first gets to browse throught that mag.
I feel the Pantera prices have stagnated somewhat but not gone done. This I feel is in realition to the economy. Has long as there is gas to burn these cars should rise at a slow but steady value.

quote:

I might be biased as an owner, but the great thing about the car is the way the car looks. It is timeless not trendy. It is one of the few cars that look good from any angle and that is rare. That's the reason the has been so popular and will continue to be.

I so agree. While in the Smokeys our car was so WELL received. 90% KNEW what she was. Anywhere else well you know how many people know what our cars are.
A few Harley riders would wave, but the sport bike crowd would ALWAYS wave or give us a thumbs up. This made us feel very welcome. We got out of the car on one trip through the Dragon and one guy yelled at me that he was freaking jealous...I asked him why??? and his response was " you have FOUR contact patches, and I only have TWO". We ended up talking about bikes and cars for almost a hour. He was on a I dont remember but his wife was on a Ducati Monster, such nice folks and it was a pleasure to have the time we spent together!!
Jeff

quote:

I have a silver Porsche that looks (almost) like every other silver Porsche (but with much cooler wheels) and people could care less when I drive by.

Bring it to Germany. Porsches are all-weather autobahn machines.

Amazing cars.

A very good question indeed!I live in Australia and have been watching the market both in Europe and the US for some time.I hope to purchase a Pantera very soon.Whilst I was hoping to buy a right hand drive, the price in the UK is very expensive after we allow for the conversion rate. So I have decided to purchase from the US. One reason is our dollar is close to parity with the US dollar. Another reason, which is probably not obvious to you guys in the US, nobody does so many modifications and does them so well as you guys. You have such a large market and obviously so many talented restorers.This means a lot more cars are probably going to go over seas.This will only raise the profile of these awesome cars and I believe is a great compliment to the guys who spent so much time restoring these cars.As long as markets all over the world struggle more toys will be sold and the price will inevitably fall. I guess its a buyers market!

Well thats my humble opinion anyway!

quote:

Originally posted by JOHN KAZLO:
HI ALL. I have been watching EBAY lately and it seem's that a lot of seemingly nice car's are going un-sold. Is the PANTERA market in a
slump due to the economy being what it is?
Seem's like a large number of the NEW MEMBER'S are from oversea's & CANADA are they the only one's buying these day's due to the exchange rate? What kind of money are these car's bringing these day's [say for a NICE driver pantera?] vs. a well restored example and a project car? What is the general concensus?
THANK'S JOHN

The Pantera market has all the signs it's in a slump. It's amazing the number of nice cars that have just lingered on the market. Last week the highest price a factory GT5S and a factory GT5 could muster on ebay was a high bid in the forties. That black GT5s on Long Island has been for sale for what seems like forever. Include the high number of quality cars listed on Melton's site, the PI and PIM website and all signs point to a depressed Pantera market and lower prices.

I've been watching prices for about a year now...there definitely seems to be more cars on the market and prices are all over the place. There doesn't seem to be much consistency in the pricing which may be another indicator the market is soft.

Patience is a virtue....insert "JAWS" theme.

quote:

Originally posted by DeLoreans and DeTomasos:
Patience is a virtue....insert "JAWS" theme.

I hope so...there are a few now that look really attractive, but I don't think they're The One.

quote:

I hope so...there are a few now that look really attractive, but I don't think they're The One.

I am looking for "the One" also. It sucks when you are ready, willing and able to purchase a vehicle and nothing seems quite "right".

There are a lot of cars to choose from. I haven't quite yet found the right combination of upgrades, cosmetic condition, location (to SoCal) and price that would "blow my skirt".

quote:

Originally posted by dmjung:
I've been watching prices for about a year now...there definitely seems to be more cars on the market and prices are all over the place. There doesn't seem to be much consistency in the pricing which may be another indicator the market is soft.

I'm not to sure about a "soft" market... I think the prices are directly related to the quality of the cars.. Yes, lots of good opportunities out there for sale

quote:

Originally posted by four walling:
[I am looking for "the One" also. It sucks when you are ready, willing and able to purchase a vehicle and nothing seems quite "right".

There are a lot of cars to choose from. I haven't quite yet found the right combination of upgrades, cosmetic condition, location (to SoCal) and price that would "blow my skirt".

Don’t rush the “hunt”, It is ½ the fun…

to: Shotgun,

hhhmmmmmm...

my favorite color is blue...

you are located in SoCal...

the vehicle looks to be in excellent cosmetic condition...

quote:

Don’t rush the “hunt”, It is ½ the fun…

But don't wait too long if the right one comes along. I see nice ones finally selling Nice restorations & modifications don't really come along that frequent.