PANTERA SUSPENSION MODIFICATION (etc)

Wow  Moby- I am a bit taken back with some one saying they want a low low Pantera.

My rims  are 15 rears and 13 inch rims on the front so allot less than the 17 inch rims others may be running so this makes mine quite low. The suspension is fully rebuilt but standard. It up on the stands at the moment so I cant measure it exactly, but  I would be lucky to have 150 mm clearance .

It only barely clears the paint markings on the road.

In short, while I am sure you can get it lower make sure you wear your kevlar undies for the test drive . You will need them.

PS - happy to provide any pictures of the RHD setup from 6997 which is a 74 factory RHD if this would help in your conversion.

My clearance is 3" in front. How low do you intend to go?

I can't think of anyone successful to improve of Dilara's design. There are minor tweeks that you can do here and there and certainly the geometry on a wide body is a lot less then desirable.

One of the interesting asides to me is the attempts at billet aluminum suspension components actually weighing more then the original steel tube components.

That coincidentally worked out to be more true then not on the Ford GT40's as well.

In any case I wish you well as this sounds like more an expedition of passion then any kind of practicality, but wha'da' I know?

Enjoy the journey.  I wish I had more insights on suspension design to share with you.  Certainly the trend has been to make the arms as long as possible to reduce bump-steer. etc.

One recommendation I would make is to not install your flares until after you have worked out your suspension design.  You have at least two issues.  Centering the wheel front to back in the flare from an aesthetic perspective and secondly, eliminating interference with the flare and tire while the suspension is under compression.

JT

JT's advice is sound, get everything setup and all the weight (engine in the car) prior to fitting the flares. I have yet to see a decent set of steel GRP4 flares, they always look too flat IMO as it's hard to get the compound curves. Larry Stock at Pantera Parts Connection has access to a great composites guy here in Reno, NV, pretty sure he could do the flares in carbon.

On my cars I have adjustable rear upper a a-arms that counteract the negative camber. That said, if I were in your position and starting from scratch with aftermarket wheels I would lengthen the a-arms and offset of teh wheels accordingly (the later Si Pantera's had such that shifted the wheel center line out counteracting much of the tram-lining tendency of the GP4/GT5/5S cars).

There are a few folks in Australia and the UK that have completed a RHD conversion, it isn't that difficult to execute on a bare chassis, either move the pedal box over or duplicate on the right side if messing with the VIN stamped on top of it would create legal issues. If keeping the later one pod dash it can be cut and rejoined to form a RHD or I recall someone had a RHD mold fabricated at one point. Joe Nardo in Australia is a wealth of information and would be a good contact, he also has among his 8 or so Panteras an Si for any measurements!

Julian

Moby935,

You should speak with Scott at SACC. He has air bag suspension for the Pantera all figured out:

https://www.saccrestorations.n...stable-front-shocks/

Suspension travel should be limited by the bump stops in your shock absorbers but go too low and the ball joints will do that when they hit their limit of angularity. At the rear that usually means the tapered hole in the upright gets destroyed. The Pantera already has relatively short suspension travel, so unless you want to be driving around on your bump stops all the time, you'll be looking at a completely redesigned suspension with relocated mounting points, etc. The Roadster Shop is the only place I know of that has done that. They do build a Pantera chassis but if you don't want to go that far, they'll build a custom suspension on the existing chassis. I seem to recall they use C6 Corvette uprights and spindles, etc. That's how they built the suspension on the Ring Brothers Pantera.

Hello all replyees (HA – is that a word/).

I am yet to work out how to respond to individual replies without filling up the thread with ‘quotes’ in replies. Can anyone please provide me with an ‘IDIOTS GUIDE’ to doing that?

Thanks for all the suggestions//comments – much appreciated. As soon as I can get a start (the damn virus situation may cause another delay as lock-downs occur) – I am going to try and make a somewhat ‘professional’ report (if that is the correct term) of each step along the way and post it up for everyone to view. In ‘theory’ – that is my intention – but quoting Homer – “In theory – communism works”.

Forgive my ‘ignorance’ in some of my questions – I am only starting on my Pantera journey – HA – and hopefully not too many mistakes.

PERCY – Do you mean you are running 13” diameter and 15” rims? My plan is circa 12-13/13/5 x 18 rear and circa 10 x 17 fronts.

HA – “...kevlar undies…” - do they itch much?

I plan to run one of these systems – I have seen it installed on a well built ‘GT40’ clone here - http://ramliftpro.com . HA - hopefully this will allow me to just clear those yellow lines and avoid the necessity for kevlar undies.

YES PLEASE – that would be FANTASTIC and greatly appreciated (is it best to send the pictures to one of my emails? Or post up here?

PANTERADOUG – In theory – so low that most of you guys will go ‘You will NEVER be able to drive that” – HA – yes I will (hopefully). Interesting re the billet weight – I am still leaning towards keeping with the original style steel suspension – but have it suitably modified or re manufactured in much more effective geometry//specifications for a low and wide car.

JOULES – Yes – a wise comment – having seen some Pantera (and 911 Porsche) that have ‘out of centre’ wheel placement – it makes me wonder how people can apply the final paint to a vehicle that they have seem to have never stood back and eyeballed the proportions.

Thanks for the advice re Larry Stock at Pantera Parts Connection and the GP4 flares – I prefer plastic flares over steel. Being a little ‘different’ – I intend to run a suitable black rubber welt between the body and flare. I like the look of it and I also think it may assist in removing the possibility of fretting between the body and guard (if there is any at all).

Do you have any details of a quality supplier of adjustable and//or lengthened arms? Will the later Si type setup bolt into a 74 series vehicle?

Thanks for the Joe Nardo info – I hope to converse with him soon (HA – I am ‘jealous’ of an 8 Pantera ‘stash’).

DAVIDNUNN – For some reason – I have a bit of a ‘mental block’ when it comes to airbags – not sure why – just not my first choice - I am not saying I would not consider them - but not sure about them.  And for sure – riding around on bump stumps is not what I want to do – not only uncomfortable – it can also be dangerous as a vehicle can tend to ‘hop out of line’ – and sometimes – dangerously so – HA – ask me how I know.  I take your comments on board with safety in mind.

Yes – the Roadster Shop complete chassis has entered my mind – but it is also another area that I have a bit of a ‘mental block’ with – price is not the issue – just something about ending up with nothing more than a Pantera ‘cover’ over the rest ‘slows me down’ on being to eager to go that route.  The complete suspension redesign with the original chassis is probably more the way I am leaning towards.

The ride height of the Ring Brothers yellow vehicle (AAAAAAARGH – DAMN LS in a Pantera 'cover') is probably where I would be satisfied with – but a bit lower would be great.  I do realise that their yellow vehicle has complete Roadster Shop chassis – I am hoping (“hoping” being the operative word here) ‘bags of money’ and the talent of a suitable suspension engineer//builder can find a similar result with the factory chassis and modified suspension.

Thanks all – have a safe and nice day.

CHEERS from AUSTRALIA.

Moby935,

The Ring Brothers Pantera does not have The Roadstershop chassis, just modified suspension by The Roadstershop. They fabricated new suspension pickup points and control arms but the chassis is OEM. You could easily have similar ride height with modified stock suspension though.

https://roadstershop.com/galle...others-1971-pantera/

Hello DAVIDNUNN - AH - I stand corrected re my 'scatching thoughts' re the Ring Broethers yellow Pantera - I just located the article - https://roadstershop.com/galle...others-1971-pantera/ - and yes - this could be a good start for my planning.  Thanks.

Hi Moby -  I put 6997 back on the deck and measured the underside clearance . The minimum static clearance is around 120mm at the front . With no people and minimum fuel in it at the moment. So would be slightly less.

I rechecked the rims and tyres - its running P295/50R15 on the rear and P245/50HR14 on the front.

It looks pretty blinking low.

The kevlar undies are only itchy if you go for the woven carbon-fiber gusset option.....! Avoid at all costs...

Mine has the stock spacers removed and P7 225-50-15 front tires. It measures 3" under the radiator support, without any loading.

IF you use a skid plate, put it under your floor pans to protect your buns. I have lowered floor pans so there is always a butt concern in mine. So is a front skid plate which I may have to do in steel of significant thickness now that I think of it?

The lower skin on the nose has been replaced twice so far.

It measures just under 42" to the peak of the roof and for all intents and purposes is at GT40 race height. 40" was the minimum a "40" could be.

You need to learn to drive differently this low and look down the surface of the road for firm obstructions like iron manhole rims. Here, they are like unwanted nose hairs and just appear suddenly and unexpectedly.

I do not have the air bag front shocks but it's a consideration and an acknowledgement that may be inevitable.

You can scope out the route in which you intend to travel but here in the eastern US, there is constant repaving going on overnight and you will commonly run into miles of road that were stripped down overnight and there likely will be some sort of projection sticking out just where you didn't expect it.

At this ride height, it's just a 600hp +"freakin' Italian go-kart" now. Going lower is just going to seriously jeopardize the lower radiator support and as a result the radiator itself. I'm essentially at ground zero and the only thing I can think of is that my personal characterization by others as "Bat S hit Nuts Doug" has to be given the consideration as a likely accurate visualization?

The truth sometimes is painful. So is hitting a road obstruction.

The only thing lower that I have seen on the street was a Lola. In it you are virtually lying down driving it. If there was ever a vehicle too low to be safe on the street, it was that car. The stacks on the Webers are higher then the drivers head. It can easily change lanes by sliding right under the trailers on Semi's and forget about the vast majority of incompetents driving SUV's that were already over their heads with those vehicles before they even got out of bed.

You might seriously consider running roof running lights to give yourself a chance to be seen by other drivers on the street?

I may subliminally have a self image of Richard Branford but don't have those kinds of financial capability. All of this in a Pantera is a dangerous mix.

It's better to err on the side of conservancy for your own safety.

Hi Moby935

Sounds like an ambitious project!

For suspension design mechanical mock-ups can work in some cases, but I’d recommend modeling using readily available software tools. Testing a design in the digital domain offers much more flexibility and potential cost and time savings. Most of the suspension parameters are trade-offs. What works well for one dynamic state often works to the detriment of others. So defining your priorities and objectives are key parameters. Sounds like you're well on your way.

Programs such as Suspension Analyzer from Performance Trends have been used to optimize Pantera suspension set-ups. And SolidWorks is the tool of choice for one of my own projects. But there’s a bunch of choices that might work for your purposes. There are also a lot of good options for rendering and visualizing your design ... so you can work both the form *and* function sides of the coin.

With well-defined design objectives, the choices will be easier, but you might find you can accomplish what you want w/o a complete suspension re-design. Maybe leverage an existing design. Julian mentioned the Pantera Si geometry as one option. You could also ‘adapt’ your Dallara designed suspension for a lower ride height via relocated pick-up points.

Dan Gurney's All American Racers designed a modification to the rear Pantera suspension back in the 80's that utilized most of the stock parts, but had adjustable mounting points for various applications (e.g. autocross, drag racing, road racing).

The pro-touring crowd has adopted this kind of "re-use" approach as most of those cars (that I’ve seen) are based around the C6 Corvette suspension, or some variation thereof. I’d go for more modern uprights, but all those parts are readily available and probably much cheaper than original Pantera parts.

One last bit of advice: start with the tire selection. That will help drive your other design parameters.

Good luck and look forward to seeing your project progress!

Dave

PECRY - Thanks - I will give you a call to that 'other country' called WEST AUST - HA.  And I guess titanium undies may solve the problem of itching - HA.

PANTERADOUG - Thanks for the suggestions - HA - and having owned and driven low-low 930 Porcsche in the past (and I can CONFIRM from experience that the worst color for becoming 'invisible' is BLACK - HA) - I 'respect the fact' that one can tend to become 'invisible' to other road users.  HA - and being a 'graduate from the school of NOTHING EXCEEDS LIKE EXCESS' - and that I control the throttle (HA - except when my brain fades away into 'SILLY LAND') - 600.0 + HP is fine for me (HA - in 'theory').

DAVEK - Thanks - much appreciated advice in there.  And yes - TIRES are on order (there seems to be NIL stock on many items at the moment) - and when they arrive - then I can start my 'measuring' - HA - and then being the enevitable - "DAMN - that won't work - start again" comments to myself.

Moby935, you're welcome.

BTW, a cautionary note, this is what can happen if you get too carried away with that "low low" thing

@davek posted:

Dan Gurney's All American Racers designed a modification to the rear Pantera suspension back in the 80's that utilized most of the stock parts, but had adjustable mounting points for various applications (e.g. autocross, drag racing, road racing).

Interesting but probably untrue. I actually purchased this modification from a Pantera vendor who is no longer a Pantera vendor. He told me that he had developed this modification but had the geometry checked out by All American Racers to confirm it would work. The modification moved the rear upper control arm mounting points about 3" outward then used an upper control arm that was 3" shorter. The idea was, it generated a much more aggressive camber curve as the suspension compressed. The problem was, the rear upper ball joints would reach their maximum angularity before the shock absorbers hit their bump stops. Essentially, the ball joints were limiting upward suspension travel. This would destroy the ball joints in short order. If you were lucky, that's all that was destroyed. The vendor installed the mod. in Dave and Linda Adler's Group 5 factory race car ("Whiplash") and it nearly ruined a set of very rare DeTomaso racing uprights. Needless to say, they removed the mod. as soon as they discovered the problem. 

DAVEK - HA - yes - I 'slightly' withdraw my "NOTHING EXCEEDS LIKE EXCESS" comment of earlier.

DAVIDNUNN - Ensuring I end up with something that is properly engineered is the only safe outcome for sure.  Finding that Engineer will be the 'start'.

Slightly 'off topic' and talking about a race car Pantera -- I was too late when i went searching - as it ended up being sold and shipped overseas - but there was a highly modified Pantera built here for circuit racing - " ‘La Pantera Bianca’ DeTomaso GT car built in the mid-1980s by noted Australian racing car designer Barry Lock and raced undefeated by Kevin Bartlett." - as they say - "the quick and the dead" -- I was the "dead" on that one.

And as you correctly pointed out to me - the 'NOT a complete Roadster Shop chassis' Ring Brothers Pantera suspension (HA - I HATE being wrong.  HA - I also object to calling it a Pantera now it has an LS in it) somewhat piques my interest and certainly has a possibility ----- the issue I see though is that it would seem that to achieve the accuracy required for such a modification, the vehicle would need to be in the RS workshop - and that it a fair bit of a 'drive and swim' from here - HA - difficult - not imposible though.   I may give them a call and inquire as to the feasibility of the components being shipped here - or - the vehicle shipped to the US and back here to AU.  But I am also not 'closing my mind' to other possible solutions to the suspension modifications.

HA - other than it using 'dirty rotten Chev' spindles - does anyone see any potential isses with what has been done to the Ring Brother's vehicle suspension?

And for some reason - my typing seems to enter the 'Bermuda Triangle' when I am typing into this - I seem to make lots of mistakes (mores than me's usual clumsy typins misstakes)

PANTERADOUG - "I do not have the air bag front shocks but it's a consideration and an acknowledgement that may be inevitable." -- Have you had a look at this hydaulic system?  https://www.ramliftpro.com/   For some reaon I have an 'aversion' to airbags - and I am certainly going to give the RamLiftPro a go.

JTPANTERA - Sorry - I missed replying - yes - ensuring the 'asthetics' are correct by ensuring the flare is centred over the tire is a must - and with me being somewhat of a 'pain in the are for detail' - I would have to pull it all apart and do it all over again if the tire//flare thing was out of whack.

David Nunn - I didn't say it was a good modification. But the lesson-learned, for the point of this thread, may be that changing one thing often leads to unintended consequences in another. Which goes back to the rationale for testing the design virtually. The solution to "the problem" that you noted was obviously to limit the suspension travel e.g. by reducing ground clearance enough to ensure the ball joints never exceed their design range ;-)

Moby935 - "does anyone see any potential issues with what has been done to the Ring Brother's vehicle suspension?" I'd recommend the C7 vs. C6 uprights. But other than that, I'll back slowly away from the topic of "issues" with the RB car. You'll find lots of opinions on that.

And not sure the "La Pantera Bianca" would have made a good street car (if that's what you're looking for). But you could probably replicate something similar. Step 1 - buy a Formula 5000 car ;-)

davek, I apologize if I implied you were endorsing the modification. That wasn't my intention. This was more than 20 years ago but I recall the Adler's telling me it was impossible to make the modification work. It was a good idea but very poorly executed. Since the new mounts were welded to the chassis, removing them was a major undertaking and not done without much thought and discussions with more than one race car chassis builder.

The only feedback I've heard re: the RB suspension was that the hydraulic power steering was horrible. The road tester drove the RB Pantera and a stock '74 GTS back-to-back. He said the '74 GTS was nicer to drive, probably due to the fact the RB Pantera had never been properly sorted.

Someone on this forum called the Roadster Shop and asked the price for the RB suspension. If I recall, it was around $30,000. That's certainly much less than the six figures the chassis costs!

A little tongue in cheek, but IMO if you are determined to design all the 'quirks' out of the Pantera you might as well go buy a modern sports car...

DAVEK - HA - no way was I implying that the "La Pantera Bianca" was intended for the street.  aaaaand F-5000 is coming into the stable very soon - plus a 'one of a kind' GP5 vehicle - I will post a photo when I have finalised delivery.

Re the RB vehcile - the only thing on that that has any interest to me is the possibility of it suspension - the rest has no interest to me - great workmanship (from what I can see) - and in my opinion - the interior looks like it comes straight out of something from the mid 80's and destined for cruise night in DOWNTOWN DUBAI - crass and I would rather walk - but - I am sure that someone enjoys it and that is all that matters really.

DAVIDNUNN - USD30.0K does not seem like a 'silly price' and is certainly worth a look at - but getting it installed here in Australia may be where I 'run up against a wall'.  I will 'quiz' the RS as to the option for installation.   

I would prefer not to 'hack up' the Pantera for a complete RS chassis - hence just the RS suspension is worth a look at.  I much prefer to leave as much of the Pantera monocoque intact as possible.

In my opinion - gutting the Pantera and ending up with the 'tortoise shell' of the monocoque welded to a complete RS chassis detracts from it being a Pantera.  I have the same line of thought when I build V-twin engined bikes from the ground up - I ALWAYS use a factory HD frame - and a few other bits like tank//s - forks remain factory HD - and in 'my mind' I end up with a custom built HD (I have ZERO interest in new showroom HD - I would rather walk) ------ I have seen lots of well built custom V-twin engined bikes that use aftermarket frames - but in my opinion - they are 'kit bikes' and I sort of feel they have no real connection to the 'real thing' – and I would feel the same with a complete RS chassis – but - each to their own.  The more I think about a complete RS chassis - the more I feel the same way about retaining more of the ‘DNA’ of the factory build Pantera.  But the RS suspension is certainly on my 'must have a look at' list.

JOULES – In reference to the mention of "quirks" - it will never be my intention to rid the Pantera of its "quirks" - my intention is to get the vehicle low without excessive negative camber and also have it with the drive-train specs that I want (HA – and they may have a few “quirks”.  Whether it rides like a big go-cart or not does not concern me at all - I have always specified and driven 'go-cart' suspension like setups all my life (HA - except in the wife's vehicles) and if someone in the passenger seat is not happy with the 'race car like ride' - they can get out and walk - HA. HA – a HURACAN 2 WD EVO with a 850 hp supercharger kit is my “modern sport car”. HA – guess which one I will enjoy more – hint – it starts with the letter ‘P’. If out with the wife and I have had one too many BEERS to drive home – she can drive me in the EVO – if we take the Pantera (one day when it I completed) – HA – both of us will be walking home. Same with bikes – if I wanted to get rid of “quirks” – I’d but a HARLEY or a BMW with ABS – cruse control - radio etc etc – NO thanks. HA - ‘cheating death’ and coming out alive is ‘half the thrill’ of driving a ‘go cart’ or riding a bike with “quirks”. And I am sure that we would all agree – that none of us would be driving a Pantera if we wanted a ‘quirkless’ vehicle – HA – a Toyota Camry achieve that outcome (not bagging the Camry – a great everyday shopping car).

Moby935, you can get the Pantera to sit low without excess negative camber, without resorting to RoadsterShop suspension. All you'll need is shock absorbers with adjustable spring perches and adjustable rear upper control arms.

Most of the other items you've asked about, such as a front mounted A/C condenser and electric power steering, have been discussed in these forums at length. Just use the search function.

DAVIDNUNN - Thanks for the info re the air-con and steer topics - I will 'stumble my way around' in the archives and locate.

I may be 'over thinking' the suspension modifications and 'worrying needlessly'.  I will get to doing some product availability research on the items you mention "All you'll need is shock absorbers with adjustable spring perches and adjustable rear upper control arms."  Any suggestions on a QUALITY supplier of such?

But - erring on the side of caution - maybe this could be more streetable - HA - no risk of manhole covers or kevlar undies required.

Call Scott at SACC Restorations. They are a sponsor of this web site. If you want to go low, he can help you!

DAVIDNUNN - Thanks - will do.

Julian - Unless I've totally mis-read this thread, (and also being a bit "tongue in cheek"), I think the objective here is to design in *new* "quirks"?

DavidNunn - Thanks for your clarification. And valid point that the mod from "more than 20 years ago" was not w/o issues. (Also, I think it was more like 30 years ago - installed on the Adler's car in 1992 if I remember correctly. Either way, it was a long time ago!) Yes, the camber curve was definitely quicker, but perhaps the "better" part of that design was the adjustability to change the pick-up points and alter the resulting roll-centers based on the intended application. But again ... *not* an endorsement ;-)

Moby935 - As mentioned, depending your overall priorities and objectives, you'll likely find various suspension parameters to be a bunch of trade-offs. For example, if radically limited suspension travel is required by a "low low" ride height, more (compared to stock) static neg camber might be desirable for optimal cornering ... depending on how you define "optimal".

I think, as DavidNunn may be suggesting, your answer may be simpler than you think (and already proven by existing Pantera vendors / owners). Plenty of experience shared here by folks on this forum.

Will be interesting to hear which direction your project takes!

Dave

This ALL looks and sounds like a "reinventing the wheel" scenario.

No matter what you do. It's still going to be round and someone else still won't like it.

I know you're not into bag type suspension, but if you're looking for something independent to raise and lower your car but still sit on adjustable coil overs for driving low then these may be an option. Old school Fat Jack built these on my car: Pantera GT5S - Shocks To Raise The Front | JanDaMan | Flickr

DOES200 - They look interesting.  What sort of lift does it achieve?  Could they be installed front and rear?  HA - I assume that video of someone with a red Pantera carrying a matching color dining table across the back is your vehicle?  From that angle, you get an idea of how 'substantial' those rear spoilers actually are.  Thanks.

KW Suspensions makes a universal hydraulic suspension lifter system that's similar to the RamLiftPro. Not cheap though!

https://www.kwsuspensions.net/...lift_system/#hls-uni

@Moby935 posted:

DOES200 - They look interesting.  What sort of lift does it achieve?  Could they be installed front and rear?  HA - I assume that video of someone with a red Pantera carrying a matching color dining table across the back is your vehicle?  From that angle, you get an idea of how 'substantial' those rear spoilers actually are.  Thanks.

I never measured the height achieved with those independent riser strut thingies. But it isn't a fast riser either, but good for speed bumps or steep driveways. They just put them to raise the front of the car, backside always sits low. Yes the wing table is excellent for holding my corona with lime.

DOES200 - HA - I will have to get you some better beer than Corona.

SOME PANTERA TRIVIA - An episode of the 70's TV show called THE SWITCH with ROBER WAGNER and EDDIE ALBERT (etc) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KxcPSzNXNs - @30:24 a PANTERA comes into view --- and again later @ 40:40 we see more and eventually some PANTERA action (HA - albeit with dubbed engine sound).