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I just read a post by George Pence from February 1, 2006. If I understand it correctly, the 1971 Pantera that I have owned for nearly forty years is actually a '72 model. It is titled as a '71, but the VIN ends in 2248, which according to Mr. Pence is well into the '72 period. It sold new in Overland Park, Kansas, to a corporation in April of '72 and I purchase it in October of '73. Have I been wrong about it's birth year all of this time?
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No. You're right about your car.

DeTomaso wasn't marching to Ford's drum ... yet. The DeTomaso model year was in line with the calendar year at that point. The last 1971 Pantera was #2292, built in December 1971. Whereas north American Ford had been building 1972 model Fords since July of 1971, because they manufactured automobiles based on the fiscal year.

The curious part of that difference ... chassis 2292 which was the last 1971 Pantera, probably didn't hit a Lincoln showroom until February or March of 1972. Ford had been selling 1972 models since September 1971.

The DeTomaso model year was aligned with Ford's model year in 1973 ... the DeTomaso 1973 model year was cut short, it was only 6 months long. DeTomaso began manufacturing 1974 models in July of 1973, just like Ford. My Pantera is one of them.

Happy New year!

-G
quote:
Originally posted by Cowboy from Hell:
No. You're right about your car.

DeTomaso wasn't marching to Ford's drum ... yet. The DeTomaso model year was in line with the calendar year at that point. The last 1971 Pantera was #2292, built in December 1971. Whereas north American Ford had been building 1972 model Fords since July of 1971, because they manufactured automobiles based on the fiscal year.

The curious part of that difference ... chassis 2292 which was the last 1971 Pantera, probably didn't hit a Lincoln showroom until February or March of 1972. Ford had been selling 1972 models since September 1971.

-G


Ok, I understand that you're saying 2248 was constructed late in the 1971 calendar year most likely during "1972" Ford fiscal year production. But why would Ford choose to issue an MSO for my car dated 1971?

With #2248 as an example,I guess that #1792 through #2292, while built in 1971, some could have been titled as either a 1971 or 1972 vehicles based on the MSO issued by Ford.
quote:
Originally posted by ZR1 Pantera:
quote:
DeTomaso 1973 model year was cut short, it was only 6 months


So the value of 73's just went up because of the rarity????? (in comparison to 71, 72 and 74 models) Smiler


I would like to think that the 1973 models are worth more than the others, but I think they are just somewhat different. There are some of the early production 1973 cars with the old style two pod dash and others that have the later 1974 dash. I am not sure about there being any 1973 models without the "L" front rubber bumper, but it is possible. I seem to recall there was an estimate of about 580 Panteras that were actually 1973 models. This figure may be incorrect, so don't hold me to it. My 1973 serial number 5169 was built in March 1973 and has the "L" front bumper, but has the old style two pod dash. I also recall another 1973 Pantera serial number 5139? that had the same dash and bumper combination.
Here's the break-down

Push Buttons (hand built models, a few were actually built before January, in 1970)
Chassis 1001 - 1382
January 1971 - April 1971

Pre-L (The beginning of the assembly line models)
Chassis 1383 - 2292
April 1971 - December 1971

Total 1292 cars in 1971
__________________________________________________

Pre-L
Chassis 2293 - 4268
January 1972 - August 1972

Pantera L (These are officially called 1972-1/2 models)
Chassis 4269 - 4839
August 1972 - December 1972

Total 2547 cars in 1972
____________________________________________________

Pantera L (this is the short 6 month model year)
Chassis 4840 - 5899
January 1973 - June 1973

Total 1060 cars in 1973 (only 6 months)
_____________________________________________________

Pantera L (aligned with Ford's production year, then extended. Should have ended June 1974)
Chassis 5900 - 7380
July 1973 - August 1974

Total 1481 cars in 1974 (14 months!)
______________________________________________________

The things that differentiated an L model from a Pre-L were the motor with EGR, the impact resistant bumpers and the switch to Arriva tires. It doesn't really matter which dash it has, the dash didn't define the model. The change in dash design was just another running change. The change to a side mounted fuel filler didn't start right away either.

The L requires a different body, with pods up front for the turn signals. Its only a hunch of mine, I have no solid evidence, but since DeTomaso was a small manufacturer trying to build cars with as little waste as possible, I'd bet they didn't start using the new L-style coaches until all of the Pre-L coaches had been used up. Because once the change was made a Pre-L lacking the impact resistant bumpers would not have been capable of being sold in the US.

Now the interesting thing about the 1972-1/2 L models, they were built to comply with regulations that applied to 1973 models. In my opinion the 1972-1/2 L models should have been considered 1973 models, meaning the DeTomaso 1973 model year would have began in August 1972, half-way to being aligned with Ford's model year. But its silly to argue that from my arm chair 40 years later, the truth remains that DeTomaso and Ford agreed to refer to the first L models as 1972-1/2 models.

-G
Thats interesting Doug, I've heard the same story from at least one other owner of a 1972-1/2 L (his car being registered as a 1973). I'd be interested in what your Marti report says as well.

A lot of people have never stopped to realize that for a new model to hit dealer showrooms simultaneously all around North America 4 months early (in September of the prior year) an automaker must begin manufacturing them at a brisk pace in July of that prior year.

-G
G. Although this is interesting, I don't think it is terribly important. The car is what it is.

The mfg tag says it was built in Sept 72. With this other concurrently running thread about the clutch effort reduction kit instalation and the posted TB saying installed in production after Sept 1-72, I just looked and it does not appear that my car has it installed.

The extra leg that gets installed normally in the kit doesn't appear to be there but because of the location and lack of access I could be wrong. If you ask my wife, she will likely say without hesitation, that of course Doug is wrong.

Now, I did have the entire pedal foot box plate out of the car because I was extending (spacing it out for more leg room) and in recalling my thought process on this of intending to install the kit, I didn't. I seem to think it is because I discovered that it is already on the car.

Thought processes being what they are, in particularly mine, that is no guaranty of anything. But back to the model year.

In all title states in the US, the title is issued to the first owner with submitting an MSO. A Manufacturers Statement of Origin.

On this document that once you give to the DMV, you no longer see ever again, is the cars serial number, and the model year.

In my case as in all cases in the US, the DMV issues the model year from that MSO. The manufacturer is the only one that can alter that and is the one that determines that.

Before I go to Kevin Marti on this one, what he has is the official Ford records on this car as to how, when and where it was sold the first time new in the US.

It won't tell the owners first name, it will indicate the selling dealer.

I place my bet on it being sold as a '73 model because of all of this.

This is the prerogative of the manufacture. THEY are the ONLY ones that can determine assign the serial number to the car OR the model year. As such, regardless of the accuracy and the intention of your documentation, it just becomes hearsay evidence since in these years Detomaso is a subsidiary of the Ford Motor Company and it is Ford that determines all of this.

I will agree with you FIGURATIVELY that it is a 72-1/2, but LITERALLY I'll bet you a nickle that it is a '73? Wink

Again...this is nothing I'm going to get my nose out of joint about though, so don't sweat it.
Last edited by panteradoug
quote:
Originally posted by JFFR:

snip...
There are some of the early production 1973 cars with the old style two pod dash and others that have the later 1974 dash. I am not sure about there being any 1973 models without the "L" front rubber bumper, but it is possible. I seem to recall there was an estimate of about 580 Panteras that were actually 1973 models. This figure may be incorrect, so don't hold me to it. My 1973 serial number 5169 was built in March 1973 and has the "L" front bumper, but has the old style two pod dash.
snip...


Interesting.
As another 'data' point: my car is #5326 with the "L" rubber bumpers, but I have the single 'pod' dash. So, the changeover may be between your 5169 and my 5326; but, who knows if DeTomaso made a clean cut-over, or went back and forth.
And to add more "confusion".....

My '71 has a build date of 5/71. I bought the car new on 1/27/72. The Calif DMV title shows the "date sold" AND the "year model". The "year model" shown on my title is (was) '72.

A few decades later (I'm slow), I called the DMV and questioned the year model. I was told that Calif was only interested in the "date sold", and that the "year model" "defaulted" to the year that the car was sold. Roll Eyes

I was also informed that they (the DMV) had recently (mid 90's ?) made a change, so that new titles now showed the actual "model year". The old titles remained unchanged. I inquired about changing my title, and was given instructions on how to make the change. So, in 2009 (I told you I was slow Wink ), I went to AAA and (painlessly) got the title changed.

While this title change had no real impact on the car's value, I made the change because a) the title now reflects the correct "model year", and b) if Calif ever changed the smog laws to include '71 cars....

John

And to further confuse things, here are the dates from my Marti Report.

Attachments

Images (1)
  • Marti_Dates
And just to make things worse.

My car 6638 was manufactured Dec. 73
Sold new in California in 1974.
Which would make it "year model" 74
and "date sold" 74

Yet it is titled as a 73.

I was told the California dealers re-titled some cars to beat new smog laws implemented for 1974 in California. Whether this is fact or not, I have no idea.

Doug M
Doug W,

Yes, it appears to be very confusing.

I have no idea why those two dates are so far apart. I've seen some Marti Pantera reports that have the serialized date BEFORE the released date, and some AFTER.

If the two dates on my Marti report were reversed, that might make sense if my car went through Stroppe's shop.

Maybe George or someone else can shed some light on this.

The Marti report did show my selling dealer. However, my Owner Card has the Dealer Sales Code of my selling dealer written below another number that had been "scratched" out. That first number may have been for the dealer that my car was originally delivered to. It’s possible that my car may have been first delivered to a dealer in LA, and then traded to my selling dealer in San Diego.

Another puzzling thing on my Marti report is that the Port of Entry is shown as Baltimore, Maryland. I would have thought that it would have been Long Beach, California. Maybe it was trucked across country ????

The first Marti report that I got for my Pantera had errors on it. I had to send it back to be redone. I thought that I had a copy of that first report, but I haven’t found it yet. I do remember that the car color was wrong on that first report.

John
quote:
Originally posted by INZOWHO:
And just to make things worse.

My car 6638 was manufactured Dec. 73
Sold new in California in 1974.
Which would make it "year model" 74
and "date sold" 74

Yet it is titled as a 73.

I was told the California dealers re-titled some cars to beat new smog laws implemented for 1974 in California. Whether this is fact or not, I have no idea.

Doug M


It's a while ago and it's tough to remember but the story I think goes something like, as an import Ford got the EPA requirements waved on things like an air pump.

It wasn't required to have one BUT it was required to pass the emissions test. That meant the dealer could legally issue the safety inspection/emission tag on the new car without lying about it. The car would pass the sight check for emissions equipment.

Working with emissions on other cars I wonder how you can do that? Granted new cars are exempt from state testing in most states, but the next time the car is due, how can you clean it up enough? The air pump is on the car because it is otherwise next to impossible to get the car clean enough without it. Been there, done that. You need the pump.

Something for the '74 model year was going to change such as the pump would be required or additional equipment required, or something to that effect which would be impossible to do to the Pantera because the car would require a major rework to do.

The alternative was to not sell the Pantera in the '74 model in California.

California is a tricky state. There are loopholes that if you hire enough lawyer/engineers ( a strange but useful combination) you can come up with something and drive a herd of elephants through it.

The answer was simple. Ford issued a MSO stating that the car was a '73.

I'm pretty sure that's how the story went?
quote:
Originally posted by INZOWHO:

... My car 6638 was manufactured Dec. 73 ... Sold new in California in 1974 ... Which would make it "year model" 74 ... and "date sold" 74 ... Yet it is titled as a 73.

... I was told the California dealers re-titled some cars to beat new smog laws implemented for 1974 in California. Whether this is fact or not, I have no idea ...

Doug M


That's more or less correct Doug, except it wasn't the dealers who redocumented the 1974 Panteras, it was Ford.

My 1974 model California Pantera was also redocumented as a 1973, and as far as I know, all 1974 Panteras destined for California were redocumented by Ford as 1973 models.

The explanation is rather simple. I believe 1974 was the first year in which California adopted its own tailpipe emissions standards, which were stricter than the US Federal standards. To sell a car equipped with a certain motor in all 50 states a manufacturer had to get the motor cetified twice, once by the US federal government, once by California. But since Californa's standards were stricter than the federal standards, many motors needed re-tuning to meet the stricter standards in California.

The 351C 4V didn't pass California's stricter standards for 1974 (the 351C 2V did). But 1974 was the final year of production for the 351C 4V ... Ford didn't see the logic in expending the time & money to re-tune and certify the 351C 4V for California when they were going to cease manufacturing it a year later. So instead, they took the 351C 4V off the options list for Torinos, Rancheros, Cougars, and Montegos in California. Problem solved ... almost.

The 351C 4V was not optional equipment in the Pantera, it was standard equipment. It was the ONLY engine installed in Panteras. And California was the biggest market for the Pantera. However, even though California was the largest market for Pantera sales we're still only talking about a few hundred Panteras that were sold in California in 1974 ... and just like the 351C 4V the sale of the Pantera was scheduled to be terminated after the 1974 model year. In the judgement of the corporate giant (Ford) the sale of a few hundred Panteras still didn't justify expending the time & money to re-tune and certify the 351C 4V for California.

So rather than cut-off Pantera sales in California Ford did what any arrogant corporation would do and re-documented the few hundred 1974 Panteras destined for California as 1973 models and laughed all the way to the board room.

Ford and all the automakers were hurting financially, they weren't happy at all with California's decision to adopt their own emissions regulations, doubling the cost of having motors tuned and certified. Ford sarcastically referred to California as the green state in all their official documentation.

-G
quote:


Originally posted by jb1490:

... Maybe George or someone else can shed some light on this ...



I can't be much help other than to say that the Marti report is obviously wrong. The cars are serialized the day the VIN number is stamped on the chassis, and that takes place before they were painted at the Vignale factory in Turin, and that happened a month before the car was finished and left the factory in Modena.

Marti is probably misinterpreting the meaning of a date stamped on a factory document. Taking the date to indicate the date the car was assigned a VIN, when in reality it was simply the date Vicenzo finally got around to filing the paperwork.

-G

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