Pantera FLAT Firewall build Documented and with Photos

@marlinjack posted:

...No picture? I assume the Bearing and shaft would be Mounted in a press and the bearings pressed together, pressing on the Inner race. Then Mounted in a Lathe, 'Between Centers', and the Shaft is parted off to length, leaving a shoulder for the Hub to seat on the Shaft, as is Original. Then the Housing neck, that is cut down to your measurement, must have the Inside diameter Bored with a 'Boring Bar' (in a Lathe) to your measured depth, and with a Shoulder to 'Hold' the Twin Bearings in Place and to the measurement!! You'll have to mount and dial-in the Casting on a Lathe 'Face-Plate', to bore it, or on a Mill using a Vertical boring head, and dialed-in. When pressing the Bearings, Shaft and Seals back into the Casting, you press on the Outer Race! And, don't forget the 3 different Sealants! You would Not use Lube on the Bearings to Press-in.

Your problem, after all of this, will be, trying to get the Seals to actually SEAL!

Good-Luck with it.

See my next posting with a Photo and explanation.

   

Picture? Have three.

This is the bearing/impeller assembly. The seal is on the bottom of the bearing.

I am unclear how this thing is assembled? It looks like it is a hollw barrel with sealed bearings at each end and I see a retaining ring at the top of the top bearing.

It needs to be shortened 1-1/2". If it can't be, then it is an no-can-do.

@panteradoug posted:

OK. I've got a 351c pump here apart. What do we do with the bearing assembly? I'm stumped on that one?

It does not look like it can be reduced in size by 1-1/2"? Cutting down the housing is child's play.

What did Ford Racing do with theirs?

...Doug, You Have to Draw It Up!! As In a Precisely Measured Blueprint/Diagram. Start with what You Have and End Up with What You Need. You're Just Subtracting 1.50", but the Boring Must Be Absolute!

Get the Instruments Out, you're going to Need Everyone of them. Don't have them...Beg, Borrow or Steal!

@panteradoug posted:

Picture? Have three.

This is the bearing/impeller assembly. The seal is on the bottom of the bearing.

I am unclear how this thing is assembled? It looks like it is a hollw barrel with sealed bearings at each end and I see a retaining ring at the top of the top bearing.

It needs to be shortened 1-1/2". If it can't be, then it is an no-can-do.

...I would try: Do this correctly or risk shattering the Impeller.

Push the Bearing 'Cylinder' Down towards the Impeller, so the Shaft protruding from the 'Top', is exposed it's full length. Chuck this section into the lathe and Part-off 1.5". BUT BEFORE CUTTING off, first turn the Shaft Portion (that will now become the Hub Mounting Point) Turn it to size for the Hub to be pressed back on it. I recommend a Heated/Expansion fit of .003"-.005" (Kinda Tight) and watch the hot Hub around those seals! Make sense?? Draw it Up!! Then cut the Casting Down...1.5". If the shaft is too hard for the Parting tool, you'll need to use a 'Friction' saw disk. Back to the Lathe with a Carbide Insert tool to turn to a Shoulder, (if) there was one. Turn 'between centers' with the Impeller End in the Chuck, contacting the shaft only. As always, Mind the Heat and what you are pressing on.

'Machining' over the Internet...that's all I have for You.

That Ford Racing pulley is nice. Looking at all of this, used in combination with the "shortie pump" may be exactly what you need for the flat cover?

IF the Ford Racing shortie 302/351 pump can be made to fit simply, that would be the simple solution.

Or, if I can get a "short bearing" replacement assembly from Ford Racing AND it is the same OD as what I have, that would work also in my pump housing.

The pump solution is just not going to happen overnight unfortunately.

Machining my bearing assembly down makes little sense since everything is going to be unknown such as will the seal work and will the single bearing be sufficient? Plus, it won't be easy to do either.

I'd rather have Ford Racing do the hard work and developement work rather then me screw this all up Royally which seems highly likely?

Thanks for posting your pictures.  The next step is just to get a hold of the Ford Racing short 351w pump and see if it can be adapted to the 351c?

The OD of the bearing out of my 302 pump is 1-5/16". The OD of the C pump is 1-3/8". There are all sorts of issues pointing towards a no can do on shortening this pump. The housing is easy. It is the cutting of the bearing that is the issue.

I haven't given up on it yet though.

I think that it is not coincidental that the short pump is 1-1/2" shorter then stock, that pulley is machined back for the correct amount of offset and the number that I came up with needed for the flat bulkhead is 1-1/2" shorter? I don't think that is all magic?

There is seemingly always a complication in stuff like this. I didn't expect it to be the bearing design.

It seems to me that one of the reasons for the long bearing assembly in the water pump snout, and the lengthy bearing assembly (that Doug showed in his picture, a few posts above) is to react the sideways loads on the water pump shaft caused by the belt tension.

Nevertheless – if you could find robust bearings, you could mount them inside a shortened sleeve (with a slight interference fit for the whole assembly). This would require very precise boring for a consistent fit.

Or you could  just make a spacer tube (like a crush sleeve) that fits between the two bearings.

The shaft, seal and the inner bearing would press in from the impeller side, and the outer bearing would press in from the snout side.

It seems like the seal is the most critical part, to keep water out of the whole assembly…

But all this is just a guess from looking at Doug’s picture.

Doug - if you take the snap ring off of the non-sealed side, can you get a puller on the seal & both bearings, or mount it in a press?

At the moment, I do not see how to remove the "snap ring". It appears to be a press on and there is no way to get under it with a gear separator that I can see?

It seems apparent that it was never intended to be disassembled?

It does appear engineering wise, that if the shaft is shorter, then it likely is not necessary to need this length of this long bearing assembly to support the shafts axial loading?.

This is where I came to the conclusion that the "technology" being currently used on EXISTING short nose water pumps is the way to go. The wheel does not need to be reinvented. It still can only be round, no matter how abstract of a thinker you are?

Therefore, THE SOLUTION IS to use an existing short nose pump on a Cleveland so I repeat my question, AGAIN, can the existing short 351w pump be adapted to the Cleveland very simply?

I'd prefer to seek out the existing knowledge base on this subject rather then NEEDLESSLY repeat the same course of exploration. For that, it is just letting this play out to DISCOVER something that already exists, but not in the avenues known to me (as of yet) ?

That is where I am ATTEMPTING to look, so far, unsuccessfully while ATTEMPTING to not interfere with Marlin's thread. Too late for that I guess? OOPS!

He can't get me with a stun gun. I'm too far away.

Here are some pictures of my 351c water pump housings. Maybe that will keep all of you off of the subject and totally distracted?

It is pretty. I guess I'm going to mess it up soon?

...Doug! You're 'Half-way Home'!! How about getting a 'Short' Pump Bearing Assembly from CVF Racing Water pumps, Rebuild Kit? If the Bearing Diameter is Larger, Bore the Casting to fit. If Diameter is Smaller, turn a 'Sleeve' on the Lathe, use Locktite RED.

I want to see You Succeed!! Call them up, I'll bet they can help You! Perhaps they would be willing to Custom Build a Bearing Assembly for You, Or, Already Have One in Stock! 'Ask and Yea Shall Receive'.

When it comes to taking Measurements for Cutting the Casting Neck. I Quote..."You Better be Right Mister! You Better Be Right!!

The Shorty Pump arrives in a few hours! You will hear from Me soon.

@marlinjack posted:

...Doug! You're 'Half-way Home'!! How about getting a 'Short' Pump Bearing Assembly from CVF Racing Water pumps, Rebuild Kit? If the Bearing Diameter is Larger, Bore the Casting to fit. If Diameter is Smaller, turn a 'Sleeve' on the Lathe, use Locktite RED.

I want to see You Succeed!! Call them up, I'll bet they can help You! Perhaps they would be willing to Custom Build a Bearing Assembly for You, Or, Already Have One in Stock! 'Ask and Yea Shall Receive'.

When it comes to taking Measurements for Cutting the Casting Neck. I Quote..."You Better be Right Mister! You Better Be Right!!

The Shorty Pump arrives in a few hours! You will hear from Me soon.

I would love to see you disassemble that new short pump to see what they did with the bearing but would never ask you too?

A short bearing assembly is all that is needed, and some plywood for the cover!

Cutting the neck of the casting is not even a high school shop project. Maybe a sixth grade thing? But the bearing, don't mess with the bearing! Not only is it a can of worms, it's probably radioactive too!

...NO need to disassemble any Short Pump!! I have It taken care of.

...I just received the 351 Windsor 'Extra Short' Water Pump, late this evening.

The Hub Height is at 4.375" Making it shorter by 1.375" from the Clevelands' 5.75". 1/8" Higher than expected.

After a thorough Inspection and Comparing, For this Machinist the Verdict is...

This Adaptation is Doable! With WORK! Well Planned WORK!

6-7 Major Bolts Line-up perfectly, 3 bolt holes in the Block, do Not and will need to be Plugged. And I will be Machining a Specialized Smaller Pulley.

The 'Heater' Port, only on the Cleveland Must Be Blocked-Off. The Pump will still Circulate as Intended, from the Radiator, through the Block and Heads.

Saturday, I took the Kat out for a 'Final' run. Tomorrow I start tearing eveything Apart!

No Doug! Not 3/4" Plywood!  1.0" Square Aluminum Tubing .125" wall! The Alternator will be Lowered.

The Impeller with a Back-Plate is Larger.

I'll take Photos, and keep in Touch. This is Going to Be Most Interesting! Photos and Measurements are coming, stay Tuned.

The Pic, the Target...A Flat Hatch.

All the Best,