Popular Hot Rodding article on Pantera

Here's a photo of the Ring Brothers Pantera. Sorry, this was the only one I could find.

I jumped in my cat last night to run down and grab a copy, but there was no copy on the stand... Some one boot leg it..lol...

David, thanks for sharing that photo. It looks like a pretty radical, quality rebuild. From your photo, they’ve certainly taken a creative approach to the radiator and that portion of the cooling system. What also intrigues me about the build is that they appear to have completely swapped out both the front and rear suspension and replaced it with “Roadster Shop” components. A visit to the Roadster Shop website shows some pretty trick suspension setups but they are generally front engine, rear drive setups. I wonder how Ringbrothers is adapting the Roadster Shop suspension to the rear engine, transaxle setup in the Pantera.

Found this on the Roadster Shop webpage, doesn't really show any suspension mods in these photos. I can't wait to see the progress on this car...I really like the Ring Bros builds.

http://www.roadstershop.com/cu...chassis/1972-pantera

Seems like the April issue has a little more Pantera related stuff in it...Anybody recognize the dash in this Mustang.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtWwkQNWdPc

I would expect a JME front suspension, a few rod shops have used them on the Mustang projects in the last year.

The modded Pantera is getting Corvette C-6 suspension, and there are several such Panteras already running with this mod that seem to handle decently; one with a big block engine uses Air-Ride bags along with his 'Vette parts. Whether it's better than Dallara's design, worse or just different, I can't say.

Here are some more photos of the Ring Brother's Pantera.

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Thanks for posting the pictures. Those are some serious mods and beautiful work. I can't wait to see the finished car.

Wow, and the wheel selection is awesome.

Awesome to see these guys take on a Pantera. Gonna be cool!

Ring Brothers Pantera Fuel Tank (built by Boyd Welding in Florida)

Front trunk?

Incredible work - pity they can't be more creative by fitting a Ford engine. There's no lack of incredible stuff out there. Surely there must be a wrecked Ford GT ready to give it up?

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Incredible work - pity they can't be more creative by fitting a Ford engine.

Why is it a pitty??? IT IS NOT A FORD!!!!!!!!

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Originally posted by ZR1 Pantera:

... IT IS NOT A FORD ...

I received a phone call this week from an auto broker handling a Pantera with a title that identified it as a Ford Pantera. There are several out there like that. I've never heard of one that's titled as a Lincoln Pantera however ... yet! Many people associate this car with Ford, and many many Pantera owners are people whose blood runs Ford blue. They would argue with you about your statement. To them DeTomaso and Ford power go hand in hand. Even the DeTomaso F1 car had a Cosworth in it.

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Originally posted by ZR1 Pantera:

... IT IS NOT A FORD ...



I received a phone call this week from an auto broker handling a Pantera with a title that identified it as a Ford Pantera. Smiler There are several out there like that. I've never heard of one that's titled as a Lincoln Pantera however ... yet! Many people associate this car with Ford, and many many Pantera owners are people whose blood runs Ford blue. They would argue with you about your statement. To them DeTomaso and Ford power go hand in hand. Even the DeTomaso F1 car had a Cosworth in it.

I understand your point however Ford didn't build the car, Detomaso did(as you know). What about all the Pantera's built after the Ford era, are they also considered Ford's?

People with Ford Blue in their veins will always argue the point about a Pantera being a Ford but it simply isn't. Ford didn't build the car. That is a fact. I would argue that there is a HUGE number of Pantera owners that agree that it is not a Ford. I knew my statement would be controversial with some...

The Ford argument is way more prevalent in North America. European Pantera owners typically call their cars Detomaso's. This topic was just touched upon in the DeTomaso mailing forum. One comment was:

"Is a Lamborghini Diablo considered a Chrysler?

Is the Maserati Bora a Detomaso Bora?

Calling it a Ford is not correct."

I do understand your point but I have to respectfully disagree.

Scott

Isnt the whole point that the car was sold by an arm of Ford with a Ford engine? Shelby Cobras aren't 'Fords' either. But, like DeTomaso Panteras, the marque is synonymous with Ford engines.

I'm pretty sure there was a Pantera trunk badge that says "power by Ford" and so do the tappet covers.

I still think they could have tried or thought harder about engine choice. It doesn't take away from the amazing work they are doing, I just think the spirit of the car lies with a Ford engine.

You disagree, your opinion is just as valid as mine. They got people talking about the car!

So then should one build a Factory Five Cobra with a hemi, or a Bizzarini / Griffo with a Skyline motor or an AMX5 with a BMW Motor....

Heck you can do what YOU want, but ultimately you are straying from the original concept. Back in the 60s-70s Chebby had more cheaper performance parts, but today get yourself a crate Ford Racing Boss5.0L easy affordable new technology meets current emisssions standards, especially if it is a magazine car (ok well maybe a John Kaase motor )

"Straying from the original concept".

Interesting statement ...

I would submit that as soon as you change one item on the engine (eg. Holley carb. or Header change or different intake system) one has ALREADY strayed from the original concept. Then the discussion is one of degree.

Powered by Ford. So it is a Ford Pantera ? Hmmm Lotus Europa, Powered by Ford ... Ford Europa. Interesting logic !?!

The Ford association is what initially attracted me to the Pantera. I have to agree, that I would rather see a Ford powertrain.

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I understand your point however Ford didn't build the car, Detomaso did(as you know). What about all the Pantera's built after the Ford era, are they also considered Ford's?

People with Ford Blue in their veins will always argue the point about a Pantera being a Ford but it simply isn't. Ford didn't build the car. That is a fact. I would argue that there is a HUGE number of Pantera owners that agree that it is not a Ford. I knew my statement would be controversial with some...

>>>It was only “Powered by Ford.”<<<

Scott,

Long ago I gave up my fantasy that anyone would have the same politics, sexual orientation, or view on gun control or abortion. Mostly, I try to ignore these failings in others, but sometimes I get a little nutz.

IMO, if one is going to change something then change it for the better or for performance. The LCD (lowest common denominator) philosophy is what drags America down. Popular does NOT equal good. Just because "everyone" does it, or its cheepcheep is no good reason to follow that path. Popular art is seldom, if ever, good. I won't even bring up our political system.

"Powered by Ford" only kicked the dominant brand's ass in the World Sports Car Championship in 1964 and 1965. "Powered by Ford" also kicked the dominant brand's ass 1966, 1967, 1968, and 1969 at LeMans.

Everyone is entitled to their own free will. Enjoy it.

Personally, the only voice I have is at the voting polls and how & where I spend my money. Money is never spent on a watch or tool that is anti-left handed. Money is almost never spent at anti-Ford vendors. Thanks for the enlightenment!

I guess the rant is over, have a nice day.

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Money is almost never spent at anti-Ford vendors.

Who ever said I was anti-Ford? I love all cars. At one time in my life, all I owned was Fords! A lot of them!

I will take your point (about arguing this point) as like trying to agree on a political view and not try and convince anyone it is NOT a Detomaso, and rather, a Ford.

Detomaso Ford Pantera

I think in the end result if the car is still recognizable as a Pantera it is within most peoples definitions of acceptable?

I just had this discussion with a Pantera freind the other day on this exact subject.

He thought that this is a matter of taste and he used as a metaphor that I had selected a certain type of woman to be my wife (with her mutual consent) and he wouldn't necessarily have picked her.

Now as I see it, the fault in his logic was that he selected a woman as a wife in his argument?

Personally I would never select a sheep as my wife just because you can shear her, screw her with little protest especially if you back her up to a cliff and she'll do anything not to get thrown off of the cliff, and in the end instead of divorcing her you can eat her?

I would personally draw the line on marrying a sheep and defining it as acceptable because it's just a matter of taste? That's really a stretch?

You know, a woman is like a tornado. In the beginning there is a lot of blowing, spinning and bouncing around. In the end, the results are the same. You loose your house?

I have to believe, if Alejandro DeTomaso were still alive, he would agree with Scott!

After all, didn't they epoxy DeTomaso plaques on the Ford engine's valve covers? Was his (DeTomaso's) decision to put Ford engines in most of his cars an engineering decision or a business decision? If a Pantera owner wants to put a crate motor in his or her car, and they base their decision on size, weight, output and cost, would they select a Ford crate motor? Probably not, unless the "Ford" aspect of the Pantera is important to them.

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Originally posted by David_Nunn:

I have to believe, if Alejandro DeTomaso were still alive, he would agree with Scott!

Why would you think that? Detomaso had the opportunity to do absolutely anything to the car after Ford was out of the picture.

He even kept a 351 Windsor in the car after the supply of Clevelands was exhausted.

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Originally posted by David_Nunn:

I have to believe, if Alejandro DeTomaso were still alive, he would agree with Scott!



Why would you think that? Detomaso had the opportunity to do absolutely anything to the car after Ford was out of the picture.

He even kept a 351 Windsor in the car after the supply of Clevelands was exhausted.

Doug,

I believe the agreement was that Alejandro would consider the car a Detomaso...

I dont think the motor is so important it's still a Pantera.

interesting......my car says powered by ford, detomaso built a car with a ford engine and German transaxle that was probably more expense than the engine. the concept of the car was designed by tom tjaarda body by Ghia. later quality by ford engineers, electrical problems resolved (some what by ford)money came from ford. no where had chevy put any effort as they were building their mid-engine corvette (oops maybe not) so for all you chebby guys why don't you build your own mid-engine car? you know everything else. I don't care what you do but don't call your efforts a de-tomaso pantera just call it like the model A butcherers just call it a hot rod. Just cuz you've got a cheap chevy engine and nothing (in the gm line) classey to put it in.

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interesting......my car says powered by ford, detomaso built a car with a ford engine and German transaxle that was probably more expense than the engine. the concept of the car was designed by tom tjaarda body by Ghia. later quality by ford engineers, electrical problems resolved (some what by ford)money came from ford. no where had chevy put any effort as they were building their mid-engine corvette (oops maybe not) so for all you chebby guys why don't you build your own mid-engine car? you know everything else. I don't care what you do but don't call your efforts a de-tomaso pantera just call it like the model A butcherers just call it a hot rod. Just cuz you've got a cheap chevy engine and nothing (in the gm line) classey to put it in.

My point had NOTHING to do with Chevy versus Ford. Please go back and re-read the posts.

chill I wasn't addressing my reply to any one person and seeing how this is the ides of march i'm not going to meet any of you at the senate building.

No one will ever completely understand the relationship between Ford and Detomaso.

For the era, the Cleveland was probably as high tech as you could get from an American manufacturer.

Looking at how it fits in the Pantera chassis, there are clues that it wasn't what was originally thought of for the car?

The problem with Chevy, at the time, is that they had their own cars to put their own engines in. They didn't want an internal competitor for the Corvette.

As a matter of fact Carroll Shelby went to Chevy first for the Cobra engines. They said no because of those reasons.

The key personality here was a fellow named Lee Iococca. He ok'd this Detomaso deal knowing how successful the Cobra program was, which he also ok'd.

The dual overhead cam engines seem to fit the nature of the car much better then the original Cleveland design. But consider the alternative. There were none in North American at the time.

The Cleveland engine was cheap and was on credit from Ford. Pretty good deal for Detomaso if you asked me?

Look at the production numbers. Without Ford, Detomasos car would have sold like the Mangusta did.

The dual overhead Chevy V8 in 90-91 Corvette would have been appropriate. The ZR1 ain't bad either.

This debate at what a Pantera is will go on forever.

What troubles me about the entire situation is the comments in previous press articles saying the car appears to others as a kind of a kit car, unable to define what it is, because of the modifications to it.

Swapping out the Ford for a Chevy or anything else for that matter just adds to this immage.

When you look at a '34 Ford street rod with a small block Chevy in it, it's still a '34 Ford, just not the one that Ford built. So the answer is that the tendency is for a Pantera to turn into a street rod. That ain't all bad. There isn't anything particularly attractive to keeping the car completely stock either. It can be so much better then that.

Would you resto-mod a Bizzarini with any other motor than the chevy block, or a Monteredi with anything other than Mopar/hemi?

As Doug mentioned DeT was using Ford Power before the Pantera and after his contractual obligations ended in '74. Ghia cars had many variations on powertrain. Detomaso cars had only 2 few exceptions that I know of: Dick R's Chevy powered Mangusta and the 6cyl Pantera.

Don't forget Shelby's small block Dodge Pantera when he went with Iococca to Chrysler in '78.

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Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Don't forget Shelby's small block Dodge Pantera when he went with Iococca to Chrysler in '78.

Never seen that one...... was it a Shelby or a DeTomaso?

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Originally posted by Denis C:

... Detomaso cars had only 2 few exceptions that I know of: Dick R's Chevy powered Mangusta and the 6cyl Pantera.

The early Guaras were equipped with BMW V8s, I'm not sure how many were equipped with Bimmer power. DeTomaso switched to the 4.6 DOHC Ford later on.

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Originally posted by Denis C:

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Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Don't forget Shelby's small block Dodge Pantera when he went with Iococca to Chrysler in '78.

Never seen that one...... was it a Shelby or a DeTomaso?

A Pantera.

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Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

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Originally posted by Denis C:

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Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Don't forget Shelby's small block Dodge Pantera when he went with Iococca to Chrysler in '78.

Never seen that one...... was it a Shelby or a DeTomaso?

A Pantera.

cant see the original article, but a visit to a ShelbyForum states the Shelby guys instaled a 800hp supercharged 340. It was a blast to drive,,, the car had a Pentagram on the hood... the car was scrapped....

Shelby's thing used a 318 Mopar engine. They tried and tried to get the next size block in- a 360- but it was simply too bulky to fit. So to save face & stir the pot, they souped up a 318 which barely fit. I doubt if the car was scrapped either- Shelby didn't throw stuff away, any more than DeTomaso did. Likely a 351-C went back in & was sold thru a broker somewhere. Nowadays of course, there are so many stroker kits & aftermarket blocks around, it might even have been possible.
Personally, I think the whole Chrysler thing was some sort of ploy- no way would DeTomaso have ever gone in business again with Shelby & sold him bodies after his screwing over their joint effort Sports 5000. The chassis of which became the Mangusta, and you know the story on where the name came from.

It is said that everything Shelby did after the Cobra/Shelby GT programs with Ford ended, including anything he did with Chrysler was just in waiting to get back in the good graces of Ford.
Look at where SAI is now with Ford.

The Dodge program was just rubbing Fords nose in the do-do. I suppose Iaocca at Chrysler was too?

The reality is that Shelby never did anything, or very little, with his own money. Ford payed for everything and essentially Shelby had what we now call a personal services contract, with Ford.

Shelby was a front man for Ford. Detomaso was a front man for Ford. With the Italians that rubs them worse then others.

Detomaso was just your average European millionaire. Not capable of operating himself in the big leauges like Ferrari. He needed backing.
As a manufacturer he didn't have a pot to piss in and back stabbing by people like Ferrari in Europe is unequaled anywhere else. Enter Ford.

This is the way Ford operated on these projects, including with Detomaso. They just cut to the quick and bought in and used their enormous clout to expedite everything from suppliers. Truth is Ford lost money on every Pantera that was built, and every Cobra.

Didn't matter. The publicity was worth more then they ever lost and made it happen today, not ten years down the road.

Detomaso was guaranteed money on every car he built and Ford sold. The "investment" in the Cobra has to be the best money ever spent by a major auto manufacturer. They still are reaping rewards from it to this day.

Ford eventually bought controlling stock in Ghia, purchased Vignalle, and when the Pantera project was cancelled sold Detomaso the 75 cars left on the assembly line for $1.

They just abandoned Vignalle and walked away from them. I don't think Ford liked the petty demands shoved at them by the Italian work ethic and procedures. This was payback to Vignalle.

Ford continued servicing Pantera parts to the legal letter of the law and dumped them as soon as the clock hit 12:01 midnight on that date.

That's just the way it was.

It is said that Henry Ford himself spent his personal money on these projects. The GT40 program alone is said to cost $15 million in 1965 dollars. It is thought that the true number with everything was around $250 million.

Essentially this is all because Ferrari backed out of the deal to sell to Ford after they shook hands on it.

It isn't just sports cars that were involved here either. NASCAR with Holman-Moody was too.

No one ever said that Henry Ford was a good guy, but without his maniacal ways NONE of this would have every happened. It likely will never happen again either.

Oh and not to get all manical on my own but if you want to swap out a Ford engine for a Chevy, or a Mopar or a BMW in a FORD Pantera...just doesn't make sense to me in the overall picture of things. Just emphasizes that you built a street rod, which of course is anyone's prerogative.

Would you do that in a Cobra too?

Makes about as much sense as the Cobra electric car to me, but hey it's the irrational ideas that sometimes open a new avenue of creativity that no one ever thought about before?

I've decided to make this thread interesting again! Here's another photo of the Ring Brother's Pantera build.

Looking very GT40ish. That's ok. They could model after something much worse, but why not just start with a close GT40 replica.

There are things that can't be done on a Pantera that a "40" already has.

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding and they are just a modern day George Barris.

+1

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Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Looking very GT40ish. That's ok. They could model after something much worse, but why not just start with a close GT40 replica.

There are things that can't be done on a Pantera that a "40" already has.

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding and they are just a modern day George Barris.

You got that right, good old George. Will be interesting to see how it turns out. We have all seen many a Pantera deviating heavily from the true design, where the end result just doesn't quite fit the car. However, if we didn't have innovative designers & builders pressing the limit of modification, we would just be stuck with our good old stock design. I look forward to the result. They take credit card when done?

I think of this way, this is what happens when people get these cars too cheaply. Just speculating here but these guys probably paid nothing for the car. Maybe traded a used Cushman or John Deere at most.

I don't think the Pantera design needs to be improved, or for that matter can be improved much at all. Tom Tjarda should be very proud of it.

The criticism I see against the original design is that it is just so pure. Ironically anything that gets done to change that seems to change it dramatically.

I've seen a spotted leopard, a black one, and a white snow leopard. All with just color changes seem to be a different species.

Tjarda with the cleanliness of the design also found a common denominator of sorts with it. My compliments to the chief, Tom (just in case you are listening).

The Ring Brothers Pantera belongs to the Widow of a man who's dream was to "resto-mod" his Pantera. He died before he had a chance to see his dream become a reality, so his Wife decided she would have Ring Brothers "resto-mod" the Pantera, in his memory. Sounds like a noble endeavor to me.

Has anyone dropped in to Spring Green Wisconsin to check this thing out? I'm about 2 hours from Spring Green -- I wonder if they would let me check out the Pantera?

Anyone have any experience with being able to get in there? I'll give them a ring soon and see what the deal is. I'll try to take some photos of the modified Pantera if it is still there. I'll get them on line here if I can get some good shots.

Mark

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Originally posted by David_Nunn:
The Ring Brothers Pantera belongs to the Widow of a man who's dream was to "resto-mod" his Pantera. He died before he had a chance to see his dream become a reality, so his Wife decided she would have Ring Brothers "resto-mod" the Pantera, in his memory. Sounds like a noble endeavor to me.

I would have saved the money and with it bought a beach house in Malibu...and saved the Pantera.

Must be something in the water... there's another build of a sort-of-Mustang featured in HRM this month that is essentially a 7/8-scale '69- Smokey Yunick-style, with a Ford GT engine/trans mid-mounted. For (estimated) hundreds of thousands of dollars, they built what they say is a Mustang version of a GT-40 but which looks like a Pantera with a 'Goose decklid and a Mustang nose. Oh, and the obligatory giant wheels, tires & brakes. It runs but whether it handles, no one's saying.

Saw that. Difficult to know what to call it. It essentially was a front totaled Ford GT.

There's been a bunch of discussion on the mortality rate of those cars at around 40%.

The ghost of George Barris is haunting us.

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Originally posted by Cowboy from Hell:

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Originally posted by Denis C:

... Detomaso cars had only 2 few exceptions that I know of: Dick R's Chevy powered Mangusta and the 6cyl Pantera.

The early Guaras were equipped with BMW V8s, I'm not sure how many were equipped with Bimmer power. DeTomaso switched to the 4.6 DOHC Ford later on.

Thank-you George. As you say, there were quite a number of Guaras' build with the BMW 4.0L V-8. ... Changed to the DeTomaso homologated Ford Cobra DOHC 4.6L V-8.

I would also add the DeTomaso Bigua, later to become the Qvale Mangusta also had a DeTomaso homologated Ford 4.6 DOHC Cobra engine.

Finally, my last dig at my pet peeve. We only have to look no further than ourselves to see just how not fully informed we are of the DeTomaso marque.

Returning to what this post is about. I find the modifications very interesting - particularly the front end. I would very much like to see the final product. It may very well look superficially Pantera GT5ish.

Bohdan G.

The front end of the car isn't my favorite. Someone must be concerned about cooling. The headlight thing has been done on many Panteras but I haven't really been impressed with any of them, including this one. There's just something about the Pantera that insists on pop-up headlights, and you don't need the light bar to do this.

I don't mind what they did to the rear rocker area at all- very nice.

Here's a rendering of the Ring Brothers Pantera. It's being unveiled at SEMA on November 5th, in the Royal Purple booth.

I think that hasn't deviated much from the Pantera theme at all. Just the colour, the last thing the world needs ins another yellow Pantera!