Pre-L + GT5-S FS/Mecum/Kissimmee............

Sharkey fill us in on the auction event.  Looks like the red narrow body did real well, but the 5S fell short.  What was the overall atmosphere like?

Sure NP. The car pictured belonged to Bacardi, one of the wealthiest men in America. Super super nice guy. Always loved Panteras. Bought one new, a 5S from Stauffer,  I bought it from him in 2015. This red chrome bumper 4174  Lot S109  was initially built by Jerry. Sold to Arizona. Purchased the car for $106k. Installed EFI, Steering, lighting, leather, cooling package & brakes.

We hit it with 3000 wets to rough the topcoat, shot a gallon of Spies Heckler Diamond Clear at $400.00 a gallon, diamond hard & crystal clear finish. Wet sanded again. Obtained a substantial luster. This is what we do when a car is going on stage under heavy lighting. The car did strong money all the way up. With fees it did mid 140's. But, that was a strong car. Had the pizzazz under the lights.

Ron Sussers Amerisport S did about right, those are soft right now. I expected that number. That's where they are now monetarily. high 180's. Keep in mind 10% fees to the buyer. Ron has since reduced the price from 275 to 250k.

Saw many friends from the DeTomaso community, made some new ones also, kinda hard to hide a Pantera Miami shirt.

So, your saying a basically stock 5S, routine maintenance  is in the range of 180K. What would you say to a complete ground up ??

Mecum is one auction perspective,  the other GT5-S at Russo and Steele only bid to $145K, despite being their catalog cover vehicle.

https://russoandsteele.com/veh...tured&showpage=1

Sharkey, are you saying the market is a little soft for Amerisport S’s or S’s in general?

Lets be honest here, the 5S at Russo didn't sell because from what I saw there wasn't really any $$$$ there . That car was so under bid, you couldn't build a car for the 145k.

Amerisport cars are the same as the euro cars, anyone says differently quite frankly isn't informed or has a different agenda.

my .02

So, where is Sharkey ???

I agree the Euro cars and Amerisport are the same, although with a few differences in cosmetics and possibly engine differences.  It was the way he wrote that made me curious.  

Wpl, as you stated some people might be misinformed which could also effect sales.

Well said:

People that are in the "know" always trash the Amerisport 5S, don't know why.

These pantera gods can never back up there rhetoric,  as to why the Amerisport is NOT a Detomaso. It's all BS., if anything an Amerisport car is safer than the euro counterpart due to structural  changes that Kirk Evans did to most of them.

Call it what it is, lets end it, the "Pantera" know it alls, have any of you actually looked at one up close???

I challenge any of  you to prove that these Amerisport cars are inferior in design or are produced any differently .

The talk of " you don't want one of those" cars devalues all 5S cars because all of them are the same. Remember, when was the last time you saw one on the street or in a car show, pretty rare auto indeed!!!!!

I like all the Pantera variants, especially the GT5S.  The cross between a 288 GTO and Countach.  

WPL,

You are absolutely correct. They are essentially the same as the Euro cars. IMHO, the "you don't want one of those, they are not the same" BS was started way back by those who had plans to import them and were butthurt that Kirk Evans was able to do something that they couldn't. 

I have had several of each ( Euro and Amerisport ) car in the shop and they are all built the same . 

Ron

wpl posted:

Lets be honest here, the 5S at Russo didn't sell because from what I saw there wasn't really any $$$$ there . That car was so under bid, you couldn't build a car for the 145k.

 

R&S results aren't out yet, so I can't comment overall but cars sell all the time for less than build cost. One could equally argue that GT5S got enough pre-auction exposure but the money chose not go there and if it was truly seen as a car collectors wanted then it would likely have been bid on. It's probably more a case of an owner spending $100K to personalize a car to knock $150K off the value.

There are not enough 5S sales to statistically say what sells and what doesn't, but it would appear for 5S cars originality is important and perhaps Euro cars (small bumper) are more desirable and ultimately desirability is reflected in number of bidders and sales price. If I was in the market for a 5S it would be exactly that a Euro car in reasonably original spec.

Thank you for that Ron. They asked my opinion & all I said was 'Ron Sussers Amerisport' & everyone went nuts. I've bought/sold/owned 20% of Kirk's 50 cars. I have the VINS/documents to prove it. Hell I sold TEN 5-S cars to one guy alone to build his collection over the last 3 years. 7 out of 10  were Amerisport cars. I have customers (plural) that will buy what I tell them to buy. And it's not about monetary gain. I have to 'live' with these sales in order to have a future in this business. I have also passed on more than a few Amerisports AS WELL AS factory builds because they were BEAT. Not because they are a bad investment. A lot of these car are edgy out there. Yet  even the ~edgy~ car owners see a gold mine in their mind. Only two individuals have sold more 5S cars than me. DeTomaso & Kirk. 

Keep in mind a red narrow body chrome bumper did ~all the money~at live auction & that's the popular model independent of the year or color. It's simply the car everyone remembers. Few remember [or even know of] the 5 or 5 Steel. I educate people on this constantly. I was paying 60's for 5S cars in 2015. Now I can't even find any with money left on the table.

Thanks for the post:

5S cars being as rare as they are, why would you imply the market is "soft" ?? You sell and broker these cars, so why the doom and gloom.

The 5S that was on Russo this past weekend was an over the top build, probably one of the best cars out there, making a blanket statement really isn't doing justice to the keepers of high quality stock not stock, restomod 5S cars

I bet if you had that car in you showroom, or had the opportunity to broker such a car, you would talking differently.

Why do the owners of these great cars under value what they have???

Thx

There are still good unmolested GT5-S for sale , but US people are scary to accros the ocean.

My '88 GT5-S was at Russo & Steele Auctions last weekend. I had the best day/time slot...Saturday evening. The highest bid fetched on the auction block was 145k. It did not meet reserve so initially it was a "No sale". After the auction my car was taken to a "Post Auction" tent and there were a few people still showing interest in my car. The highest legit offer I got was 200k net to me. The buyer all in with commissions paid 220k. 

I was hoping my car would fetch closer to 300k.  In the classic/exotic car arena, there are only two factors that matter; Exposure and demand. My GT5-S had plenty of exposure. My car was the lead car in Russo & Steele's e-mail blast that goes out to thousands of their customers worldwide. My car was also selected to be in their exclusive catalog which also got distributed to thousands of their customers. Also, my car was sitting at the pre-auction six full days before it went through the auction block and I made sure I was there sitting next to the car for all six days to answer potential bidders questions.  Also Russo & Steele auctions was only 15 minutes away from Barrett Jackson and I observed a lot of cross over customers. Lots and lots of people at the RS pre auction were going back and forth between Barrett Jackson pre-auction. 

My car had plenty of exposure. It just didn't have much demand. Sometimes we confuse rarity with high price. Just because something is rare doesn't necessarily means its highly valuable. High demand plus rarity equals big money. Without high demand nothing else matters.

I had a beautiful GT5-S. But it did not have original paint. No original wheels either. Didn't have the original engine. It was a beautiful resto-mod GT5-S. Had it been bone stock original maybe it would have fetched more. Or maybe not.  One thing for sure, the marketplace spoke. At this snapshot in time my car was worth 220k, no matter that I thought it was worth more and so many others told me it was worth more. 

Thanks for the update on the sale, congratulations albeit I'm sure it is bitter sweet letting it go for less than you wanted. Did R&S waive the buyer premium to get the deal done? I would have expected a net $200K to you less seller fees to equate to a $242K to buyer?

Joules, the way it works at R&S is that if the car sells on the auction block the buyer pays 10% commission and the seller pays 10% too on the final auction sale price. So R&S effectively get 20% commission on the sale price.

However, if the car doesn't hit the reserve, then the car goes to a "Post sales" tent where R&S will generally waive the buyers commission fee altogether, but not the sellers fees, effectively cutting the total commission on the car in half to help bridge the gap and hopefully sell the car. Actually, once the car goes to the Post auction tent it seems to be a free for all where whatever deal  R&S can work out to sell the car they just might do, knowing its their last best chance to make some commission. 

One point worth making is that if you try to sell your car at R&S and it doesn't hit reserve and becomes a "No sale" and you bring the car back home, R&S keeps the title for 90 days. If you find a buyer during that 90 day time they will charge you commission. That's the fine print that I did not initially see.

That's quite the fine print gotcha.

The 5S sold at Russo sadly didn't sell for more. The new buyer got a great deal, he actually stole that car. I'm sure he knows.

Originality might have merit if you want to put the  car in a collection, not driven.

Remember, these are 30ys old now, drivability is poor in stock form compared to today. The 5S sold is superior in that respect.

I know this car, if you knew all the improvements it has, you would be scratching your head as to why it was sold so cheap.

Possible WRONG auction, no real buyers, BAD TIMING. We can only guess as to why!!!!

my .02

Again, another owner who under values what he has!!!!!

My question, where did Russo /Steele dig up this buyer from, they didn't even tell the seller, and didn't disclose the selling price the seller, which by the way is a federal compliance issue.

They just told him the net proceeds. Kind of odd don't you think, but that's another issue all together.

What's wrong with this picture

Wayne, in the "Post auction" tent, there was at least  3 people interested in my car. The highest legit offer I got was 220k, R&S said they would make sure I received 200k net to me on this particular offer. When I say "Highest Legit offer" I say that because  a couple of bidders approached me with sneaky nefarious schemes to circumvent R&S altogether to avoid paying commissions. I didn't trust those guys, nor did I want to worry about being sued by R&S later. 

When R&S approached me to sign on the sale, it only mentioned "200k net to me". I asked, how much did the buyer pay all in? They told me not to worry about that, because I was going to get my 200k. So there is a chance the buyer paid a little less than 220k. But I'll never know for sure.

Exactly what I'm talking about David, where is the disclosure of how much the buyer paid. This is a federal statue by the CFPB, which is a federal consumer bureau watch dog.

I would demand a copy of the sales agreement to insure transparency,

Wayne, from the tone of your posts one could equally say you are an owner who overvalues what he has and that is perfectly fine if you are not in the market to sell, but the market dictates what a car is worth at any time, prices ebb and flow. Assessing recent GT5S sales and knowing of one exceptional car available in Europe that could be had landed in the US for similar money I think the market has corrected somewhat from previous highs where GT5S cars were disproportionately valued over other Panteras, for what is basically a fender package. A more rare Si with a completely redesigned chassis components and drive train I can see, but even those are changing hands in the high $200's. 

I was aware that Mecum had a post auction sale clause where they were due commission on any sale within 30 days, so I guess it is pretty standard.

I'm happy for you, now on to the next !!!

Julian, very well stated indeed.

There is no conspiracy to prevent someone from buying a car at auction — quite the contrary actually! If the offers are bad, the money either wasn't in the room, or just isn't there at all. The fact that the very original black GT5-S didn't bid over $180K suggests that the GT5-S market is not what some people would like it to be. Examples are everywhere. Several of the cars that did sell in Arizona were sold for a fraction of their pre-sale asking/estimate numbers — and not just Panteras. Despite some really exceptional results (the red early car selling for $132K), many cars are not selling for what owner/sellers would like.

For a long time the premium for a GT5-S over an equal quality narrow car was anywhere from 30—100%. I know this because I have been following real sales for 10 years now. If a nice narrow Pantera is a $75K car (and clearly many are and more are not), that would suggest a 5-S should be in the $100K to 150K range, maybe a bit more. Mangustas used to be the same multiplier, maybe a bit more. After some very public $300K-plus sales, we are now seeing Mangustas selling in the $200—250K range.

What a seller asks and advertises a car for is NOT usually what they SELL for. And after every sale someone cries that it was a "steal" or something equal, or says "I would have paid MUCH MORE for that car". The phrase "step-up or shut up" comes to mind—and I've kicked myself MANY times for not being bold enough to offer what I think a car I want is worth only to see it sell for LESS.  Jonathan had a hell of a time generating anyone interested in buying his original 1983 GT5 even after he lowered it to $105K.

There are only so many big money multi-hundred car collectors out there, and at some point owning 10 GT5-S Panteras (or Mustangs, or Shelbys or...) must get boring. Eventually those cars will find their way back on the market, and hopefully the road too!

Being both an owner and a buyer, I see both sides of this issue VERY clearly. But the end of the day, I would prefer prices to return to pre-2015 levels so I can buy more cars! Especially a nice GT5-S.

Mark

I'm on board w/Mark. I buy & sell more of these than anyone on earth. Initially I mentioned to the owner two months prior auction, the car will retail around 200k (+ or - 10%) independent of condition/restoration/upgrades. He didn't want to hear it.  From fine art to antique firearms & the collector car market, it's always been a seesaw. The 5S is soft right now. You can now buy TWO L88's for what ONE used to cost. Get used to it everyone, it's the nature of collectibles. If I can sell a chrome bumper mid 140's on stage, add 30% & what do you get? A 5 Steel.

Ok:

This turned out to be a great thread, good info indeed!!!

Sharkey, please get in touch , if I can get a quality build like the one above for

$170k I'm interested

thx

Wayne, I think you’re missing the point. 

Sellers think they have $300K cars. Buyers want sub-$200K cars.

Markets change. And don’t for a moment think that these could never return to be $75K (or less) cars. NOBODY “needs” a GT5-S. If you’re a regular guy whose life takes a turn for the worse, trust me that even a $50K GT5-S could be well beyond reach if you can’t make the mortgage payments.

When bad shit happens widely (war, insurrection, depression, Hypher inflation) the market implodes and our cars are worthless to all but the super rich.

I have personally watched several people trying to sell their cars react too late to required price drops only to get substantially less for their cars in the end than if they had just priced them realistically in the first place. In some cases the gap was 50% but often over 30%.