Question for those who are familiar with the European GTS

quote:

quote:
You misunderstood. The calipers have an inner and outer half that are bolted together. Between those halves, what seals them?


I've got the Aviad pan and that ain't it ^

There are no fluid holes in the caliper halves except for the pistons and the 2 brake pipe screw fittings. To connect fluid from one half to another, the external brake pipe is used. There are no passage holes where the 2 halves join together, no seals required.
Anders post 54 has a nice picture of that joint pipe.

The sump I pictured is the stock or factory baffled unit with windage tray, listed in the parts supplement. My car had some of the GR3 parts options added from the factory which included an updated engine. I am not sure what sump is on the GT5's etc.

Yes. The Borg-Warners on the Fords are that way until the end of the '67 model year. They don't use the spacers in between the halves to adjust for rotor thickness though.

I suppose that spacer on the Girlings could be cut out of aluminum plate stock and save a pound or so on the complete assembly?

What year is your car? Is it a GT5? Those are some hefty rotors?

Cars this size and weight would never need a rotor that thick for street use. The thickness doesn't add to the stopping ability of the design. The thickness is there for greater cooling capability under heavy race conditions since the venting is so much more substantial.

That's why the rears on the US market cars were solid rotors.

As a matter of fact, it is doubtful that the Gp3, 4 or 5 brakes in the front have any more braking torque than US cars do? That is determined really by the leverage that the caliper has on the rotor and that is changed by increasing the diameter, the radius or lever arm on the center of the hub.

On a street car, the big brake are really for show more than anything else.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
I suppose that spacer on the Girlings could be cut out of aluminum plate stock and save a pound or so on the complete assembly?

What year is your car? Is it a GT5? Those are some hefty rotors?

I think those spacers are steel, could be aluminum.
My car is a 1978, they called it a GTS S on some of the DeTomaso paperwork. The last 4 digits of my vin are 9070 and there are some old pictures in the registry. If you have the Brooklands Books DeTomaso Collection No.1, 1962-1981 my car is in there plus in some other books & mags. Page 66, "On a wing and a prayer" is my car.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
I just looked at my original brake master cylinder which I replaced. It is stamped 23mm on the inside flange.

I'm wondering if they increased the size of the bore on your car?

GR3 have 1 in = 25,4 mm bore
Stock Pantera is 0,90 in = 23 mm bore

quote:

Originally posted by George P:
Anders, the adjustable proportioning valve in the last picture, is it plumbed into the front circuit or into the rear circuit?

One other question, what size front tire do you have installed, are there any clearance issues?

Thanks,

-G

it is plumbed into the front circuit.
I have Pirelli P Zero 225/50 ZR 15

clearance issues

it depends on the "ground clearance" GR3 cars have different springs, my have red/white color marks in front and green in rear. vin 7400 have white front and green rear. I tried to lower the front a bit but then I got problems.

both my and 7400 and has tire contact marks close to the "rain water drain pipe" (hope you understand)

quote:

Originally posted by bdud:
A picture of my front calipers split, no seal between the 2 halves.

Anders, it looks like you have a thin spacer on your hubs as well, is that the case?
If you do not use the spacers, where do your wheels hit on the calipers?

it also takes into sway bar adj bracket
I have a 5mm spacer

have I missed to answer any question?

quote:

Originally posted by bdud:

quote:

I don't dare draw too many more conclusions based on artists' illustrations, but the later List also shows a fully baffled & trap-doored '10-liter' oil pan with rectangular pump pickup

My car has the factory sump as you described. Here is a picture.

it looks like my, how much oil hold your?

I have seen 9, 10 and 12 liters in various paper / books...

quote:

Originally posted by bdud:

My car had some of the GR3 parts options added from the factory which included an updated engine. I am not sure what sump is on the GT5's etc.

Do you know the difference between GR3 engine vs. stock engine? send me a PM...

quote:

Originally posted by Anders Hellberg:

... I have Pirelli P Zero 225/50 ZR 15 ... clearance issues ... it depends on the "ground clearance" ... I tried to lower the front a bit but then I got problems ... contact marks close to the "rain water drain pipe" ...

Anders thank you!

I'm surprised they left the proportioning valve plumbed in the front circuit.

I'm also surprised to read that the Pirelli P Zero, 225/50R15 front tires mounted on 15x8 wheels (18mm offset) with 5mm spacers (therefore 13mm net offset) are rubbing the inner wheel house!

Anyone else have problems with 225/50R15 front tires rubbing the inner wheel house?

What a great thread. I learned much and enjoyed it even more. Thank you to all who have posted.

My tires on full lock, I think used to rub in the same area as Anders with 225/50/15 P Zero's, but I have some marks where it looks like someone has "relieved" that area. I don't have the adjustable sway bar but my calipers clear the regular 8" wheels.
I can't remember how much that sump held, I used an Armando sump for my present build.
My engine I am sure was nothing special even though the article said it had a tuned engine, 2 bolt block, closed chamber heads, hydraulic cam, cast iron intake, Holley 650 DP.
I disabled or gutted my stock proportional valve as it kept locking up my front brakes, even with a new seal kit. In my case I do feel, that the rears are doing the bulk of the work. I have some Republic wheels, Detomaso style 17x11 wheels arriving next week so I can run P Zeros all around, so I will check it better then.

George, I am thinking of going with 285/40/17 rather than the 335/35/17, maybe the narrower tire will be easier to live with and more fun, what do you think?

quote:

Originally posted by bdud:

George, I am thinking of going with 285/40/17 rather than the 335/35/17, maybe the narrower tire will be easier to live with and more fun, what do you think?

Yes!

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

What a great thread. I learned much and enjoyed it even more. Thank you to all who have posted.

Agreed! Thanks to all. Please keep it up.

.

quote:

I'm also surprised to read that the Pirelli P Zero, 225/50R15 front tires mounted on 15x8 wheels (18mm offset) with 5mm spacers (therefore 13mm net offset) are rubbing the inner wheel house!

you misunderstood me, it was not with 225/50R15, it rubbing the inner wheel house at full lock.
but from a previous owner with widener tire most likely from the competition time..

on my former Pantera GTS sat wide Michelin TB race tires 240 or was it 270? :-/ on 8 x 15" no spacer and them rubbing the inner wheel house at full lock.

Maybe it was these Michelin TB15

Anyway nice tire, longstonetyres.co.uk recommended Michelin before Avon on my GR3 Pantera

Michelin TB15
Rim Width Alt Sizing Section Width (mm) Diameter (mm)
23/62-15 Michelin TB15 8.0 - 10.5 270/45VR15 268 625
26/61-15 Michelin TB15 10 - 11.5 295/40VR15 288 615
michelin tb15


Michelin TB5
Rim Width Alt Sizing Section Width (mm) Diameter (mm)
18/60-15 Michelin TB5F 6 - 8 225/50VR15 230 605
23/62-15 Michelin TB5F 8.5 - 10.5 270/45WR15 278 620
26/61-15 Michelin TB5F 9.5 - 11 285/40WR15 291 610

18/60-15 Michelin TB5R 6 - 8 225/50WR15 230 605
23/59-15 Michelin TB5R 8.5 - 10.5 265/40WR15 269 592
23/62-15 Michelin TB5R 8.5 - 10.5 270/45WR15 278 620
26/61-15 Michelin TB5R 9.5- 11 285/40WR15 291 610
29/61-15 Michelin TB5R 11 - 13 335/35WR15 341 616
F = front R = rear
michelin tb5

quote:

Originally posted by bdud:

My engine I am sure was nothing special even though the article said it had a tuned engine, 2 bolt block, closed chamber heads, hydraulic cam, cast iron intake, Holley 650 DP.

was it Holley 4777?

which intake can you check it?
have you paper that says DeTomaso part no on the intake?

quote:

Originally posted by Anders Hellberg:
GR3 have 1 in = 25,4 mm bore
Stock Pantera is 0,90 in = 23 mm bore

I just checked my original master cylinder, about 25.37mm with a vernier. I am now running a vendor replacement unit, I did not know they were different. The brakes do feel good, not much travel, running a rebuilt servo, maybe I was sent a 1" replacement.

quote:

Originally posted by Anders Hellberg:
was it Holley 4777?

which intake can you check it?
have you paper that says DeTomaso part no on the intake?

Yes a Holley 4777-2 with no choke flap.
The intake had an aluminum tag, no piece of paper.

A picture of the original intake..
Non DeTomaso #'s I can see.

That looks like the same intake on mine ... whick is odd because the car is a 1979 Euro GTS with what appears to be a 73 intake ?

73 Carb ?

This appears to be the original master cylinder also ....

George P

should we /you move engine issues to Engines and Engine Systems Forum?

quote:

Originally posted by Anders Hellberg:

George P

should we /you move engine issues to Engines and Engine Systems Forum?

We'll leave this topic (thread) here for now, and see where it goes. It started with a question about wheel spacers, but the topic has progressed to cover several areas in regards to the equipment found on GTS and Group 3 Panteras. Who knows what other subjects we'll cover before its through. You, Ron and Brian have made a wonderful effort in detailing the differences, posting pictures, etc. Thank you. Sometimes when a topic has finished turning, twisting and winding its way through several subjects I have to change the title in order to better describe the material covered within.

Question ? Do all the Euro GTS have the rear tail light panel with a wider indentation for the Euro License Plate ?

Yes I think they do. Though the indentation is still not big enough for the older UK number plates.
I am not sure, but I don't think your master cylinder is an original. The stock ones including mine is the same as Anders in post 63.

AC, none of the Panteras got aluminum master cylinders with single reservoirs. They were all dual reservoir cast iron with screw tops for each individual reservoir. ATE screw caps fit both brake & clutch reserviors.

I earnestly hope you drill a hole in the front trunk floor and install a tie-down stud & wing-nut for that spare! That is the prototype position for the spare, and the assembly launched like a 15-lb missle through the windshield in the original Euro crash tests! I carry mine there, but with a tie stud & nut.

Boss .. After some research I'm mistaken that master appears to be a GM style master and not the original. Kind of odd wouldn't you think for someone to replace it with that? Inside it is a dual reservoir separated by a divider.

The spare tire is just stored there for now so it doesn't find a home in my BOSS 302 ... I don't actually even drive the car at this time.

Anders what intake do you have?
A picture of my carb.

quote:

Originally posted by bdud:
Anders what intake do you have?
A picture of my carb.

What are the Holley numbers on the airhorn of this carb? The date code will be on it as well.

From this angle, looks like a 600 cfm double pumper. The extended throttle shaft could indicate it is a GM stile 650 cfm "spread bore"?

It has..
LIST-4777-2
2717

AC, that type master was commonly sold as a replacement by many Pantera parts vendors in years past. There's often a bolt pattern adapter with a poly bushing inside to sort-of guide the short actuating rod. The constrained bushing squeezes down when things heat up, causing the rod to stick and brakes to lock on. Reaming out the hole fixes things- I've done it to afflicted cars on weekend runs using a Swiss Army knife.

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
Question ? Do all the Euro GTS have the rear tail light panel with a wider indentation for the Euro License Plate ?

No, not mine -73
Anders

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
Question ? Do all the Euro GTS have the rear tail light panel with a wider indentation for the Euro License Plate ?

not my -72 GTS

quote:

Originally posted by bdud:
Anders what intake do you have?
A picture of my carb.

I have a Holley 4777 with no choke flap, and a Torkel intake. was on the car when I bought the car.

DeTomaso had a special intake for Holley 4777 but I do not know which it is...

quote:

Originally posted by bdud:
It has..
LIST-4777-2
2717

what mean 2717?

quote:

Originally posted by bdud:

quote:

Originally posted by Anders Hellberg:
was it Holley 4777?

which intake can you check it?
have you paper that says DeTomaso part no on the intake?

Yes a Holley 4777-2 with no choke flap.
The intake had an aluminum tag, no piece of paper.

interesting K-621-JG is a 71 CJ Engine code Q Comp 8.6:1 according to TSB #4

I haven't seen an engine code tag before are there any more that have one?
does anyone have Detomaso code?

Detomaso code looks like this 608 AG, 613 J, and 621 JG. Maybe there are more


The only code I have manage to crack is.
Ford code K-613-J is De Tomaso code 613 J and it is a 351C 4V 71/72 M code

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
That looks like the same intake on mine ... whick is odd because the car is a 1979 Euro GTS with what appears to be a 73 intake ?

Mats Gorski had a D3ZE-9426-AA intake on his Pantera -75 VIN 7434 and a 4777 Holley.

bdud have you a D3ZE-9426-AA intake also?

That is a 650 mechanical secondary Holley with mechanical secondary pumps, aka, a 650 double pumper.

The first digit of the date code is the last digit of the year. A three digit code would be a '60s carb, a four digit would be a 1970's built carb. The other digits are the month and day of the month.

IF I am interpreting that correctly, the date on that carb is July 17, 1972?

The -2 after the list 4777, is a revision of the original. I'm surprised that there was this carb made in 1972. I thought they were newer than that?

The aluminum tag is the Ford tag that identifies the engine. It is not a detomaso applied tag as far as I know.

The intake manifold is a production line iron manifold. The engineering number indicates that it is just probably the last variation of the production manifold.

It is probably what you will find on all of the 4v 351c's built all the way until production ceased?

The Europeans do not necessarily care for the aluminum intake manifolds since they cause issue with the carbs freezing up in weather below freezing.

The iron manifolds work better for those conditions.

I'm surprised that the carb is changed but the intake is not.

There is no performance benefit to switching to the Ford aluminum intake manifold. It is just a weight savings thing.

Why the engine tag is still on there is a question. Certainly racing the car would have taken the engine out of warranty. Maybe it was left there just for future identification for replacement parts?

I know that even on the Shelby race cars, the stock "Shelby" engines were left there on the race cars for customers.

This way if the new owner blew up an expensive race engine that he bought from Shelby, there would be no hard feelings over it.

Perhaps Detomaso worked the same way.

In the era, the stock 4v Cleveland was probably more than adequate for the Gp3 cars. Those would be raced in "club racing" and not the heavy duty racing were you had manufacturers competing against each other and wanted every available horsepower they could get out of the engines?

quote:

Originally posted by Anders Hellberg:

quote:

Originally posted by bdud:
It has..
LIST-4777-2
2717

what mean 2717?

Going by some charts online, the 4 digit number is the date code, September 1977. I know it was not a 1987 or 1997 carb as I bought the car in 1982 and that was the carb that was on the car.

quote:

Originally posted by Anders Hellberg:

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
That looks like the same intake on mine ... whick is odd because the car is a 1979 Euro GTS with what appears to be a 73 intake ?

Mats Gorski had a D3ZE-9426-AA intake on his Pantera -75 VIN 7434 and a 4777 Holley.

bdud have you a D3ZE-9426-AA intake also?

Anders don't you mean a D3ZE-942 5 -AA intake?
Mine is a D1ZE-9425-BB, certainly cast iron.
A couple of websites..
http://www.mercurycougar.net/f...dex.php/t-26876.html
http://www.mustangtek.com/FordIntake.html