Skip to main content

87 replies

Question for those who are familiar with the European GTS

Replies sorted oldest to newest

George PGeorge PAdmin.
thank you Ron

I ask for 4 reasons

(1) The 15x8 wheels had 19mm off-set, whereas the 15x7 wheels had only 6mm off-set. Installing the 15x8 wheels "as-is" reduced the front track width by 1 inch. To get a car to stick better in corners you normally increase the track width, it doesn't make sense for the factory to reduce it. For instance, the rear 15x10 wheels increase rear track width by a whopping 2 inches.

(2) I've known (and currently know) Pantera owners who have installed 225/50R15 tires on their Panteras, using the 15x7 wheels, without any rubbing issues. Moving the tires inward wasn't necessary due to fitment issues.

(3) I've seen 1970s era pictures of the factory GTS in which the front tires appeared to be moved outwardly further than in other pictures.

(4) Then there's this factory parts diagram which we've all seen a hundred times (below) clearly indicating a spacer for the front. Perhaps the spacer was optional equipment?

Attachments

Hide
Images (1)
  • gp3_expl_vw
accobraaccobraMember
1. My car has 15x8 rims .. I dont see any indication of long studs to accept spacers ... also less factory GTS Flairs ... my car being a later version in 1979 ... they didn't build my car with handling in mind .. it was more cost effective less spacers and flairs.
2. Tire size in the front is 225/50 with no rubbing issues ..even in hard cornering.
3. I think your right and when they moved them outboard that would explain the GTS Flairs.
4. I see the diagram ... i think the tell tail would be longer studs in the front.
5. The rear of my car has 305 /50 which also fit very nice ... i never looked or compared it but at times i thought the car had a wider look at the 1/4 panels

Heres a good picture in a hard corner ...

Attachments

Hide
Images (1)
  • Rons_GTS_3
Last edited by George P
panteradougpanteradougMember
Very interesting discussion.

I couldn't help but notice that there are components in this illustration that are probably intended for racing, such as the roll cage and the vented rear rotors?

I'd take a guess that the front spacer is probably suggested for competition...of some sort?

I'd also make an educated guess that the spacer there is a 1/2" thick. Looking at my car, I'd expect some kind of interference with that as is (without flares). Probably 1/4" thick would work though?

My thought is that I'm not sure that you need to increase the front track for a handling improvement? Since I don't race and haven't tried every combination, that is just speculation though.

Still a fun thought to consider.

I'm with Ron on the longer studs thought. I would expect those to be shown in the diagram as well as different front calipers to go with the thicker rotors? No calipers shown?

The Gp3 used big ugly non-stock iron Girlings. There are aluminum calipers eventually offered but apparently the aluminum Girling 18-4 and 16-4 units don't appear for the Pantera until sometime AFTER the factory raced the Gp4 cars in 72-73 although they seem to be on everything else but the Pantera?

They are on a couple of the Gp4 cars but might be "aftermarket" additions. That is still unclear at this point.

Example. The GT40 was called the Gulf in the '68 season. It was run with the Aluminum Girlings, and a Boss 302 also. Lola T70 used them. Porsche as well.

Are there more illustrations that go with that one George?
Last edited by panteradoug
davidnunndavidnunnMember
George,

It seems to me, the items shown in the diagram are GT3 parts not GTS. The clue is the roll cage. GT3's had wheel spacers on the front, not to increase the track width, so the reinforcing ribs on the inside of the 15x8 Campi wheels would clear the GT3's big brake calipers. Without the spacers, the front wheels won't turn. I know one GT3 owner who found that out the hard way!
George PGeorge PAdmin.
quote:

Originally posted by accobra:

Heres a good picture in a hard corner ...



That's some big rubber on the back of your GTS Ron! Smiler I'm amazed it doesn't rub the outer fender. Since the 15x10 wheel has negative 6mm offset, the sidewall of that tire actually extends outward 3mm more than a 335mm tire mounted on a 17x11 Campy clone.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

... My thought though is that I'm not sure that you need to increase the front track ...

... I'm with Ron on the longer studs thought though ...

... Are there more illustrations that go with that one George?



The front track was reduced one whole inch by installation of the 15x8 wheels in the front. I'm curious if De Tomaso compensated for that by adding a spacer. I'm agreed about the need for longer studs. Since 225/50R15 tires can be installed on the 15x7 front wheels without rubbing, I see no reason why that spacer couldn't be 12mm thick because the 15x7 wheels have 12mm less offset than the 15x8 wheels.

That illustration is an incomplete version of an illustration scanned from Jan Norbye's Pantera book. Mr. Norbye's comment below the picture reads "what it takes to make a European spec GTS out of your standard Pantera". I assume the picture is from the "Post Ford" European Pantera parts manual; but that's only an assumption since I don't have a copy of that version of the parts manual.

quote:

Originally posted by David_Nunn:

... It seems to me, the items shown in the diagram are GT3 parts not GTS ...



When the Group 3 Pantera was conceived, it could only be equipped with the same components as the road version save for a few safety items. The standard Pantera was not "race ready" so an improved road going Pantera (the GTS) was a necessity in order to compete in the Group 3 class. The GTS and Group 3 are therefore kissing cousins. The Group 3 was based on the GTS. Or to look at it the other way around, the GTS was created so De Tomaso could go Group 3 racing. After a couple of years the Group 3 rules were relaxed, allowing for a few parts such as brakes to stray from the production items. But ... a customer could have ordered a GTS from the factory at any time, and had it equipped with every part used for the Group 3 as optional items. So ... are we looking at a Group 3 exploded view, a GTS "options" list, or both?

The original wide body road going Pantera, what we call the GT4, was also conceived as a GTS with optional wide wheels/tires and fender flares. It didn't become a model separate from the GTS until 1980, the year the GT5 was introduced. The heavy duty brakes and uprights installed on the GT5 and GT5-S Panteras were sourced from the Group 3 race car.

Anyway, I've digressed. I've never heard of a GTS having a spacer up front. I'm just being thorough, making sure I haven't overlooked anything. Seeking the facts. I'm hoping to be educated. Smiler Your comment about the Group 3 brakes has indeed educated me.

The "spirit" of Pantera International is the sharing of information. Thanks to all who've chimed-in. I hope the comments keep coming.
Last edited by George P
panteradougpanteradougMember
At the time, no one had determined that using a larger diameter wheel (16,17,18)with the same exterior tire dimensions of the 15 inch tire would give greater cornering stiffness to the tire itself.

Widening the wheel was still considered the most you could do to gain cornering grip and maximum tire wall stiffness.

Therefore, the 8 inch rim with a 225-50-15 would generate better cornering g-force than the 7". Even with the exact same tire.

As the picture Ron posted (great pic Ron) indicates, the 225-50-15 tire fits so nicely within the stock fender without interference. Why fix something that ain't broken?

Even the fact that just the iron Girlings were used on the race cars indicates the car is not even in dire need of controlling the shocking more precisely by reducing unsprung weight?



These cars are really an outstanding example of how you can drive them daily on the street and take them racing on the weekends.

Much more so than even a Cobra is. If you get a little warm in the cabin during the race, turn on the a/c. A little bored waiting around for the flagman to call your group, turn on the stereo? No need to hide under the underpass if you get caught in the "rain"? In the Cobra? I don't think so. Big Grin

I personally purely by coincidence was able to do a side by side comparison of a 71 Pantera and a 427 s/c. Circa 1978.

The Pantera was by far easier to handle than the Cobra and with it's Weber equipped, high compression Boss 351, was notch per notch, as fast. The Pantera had Scheel seats in it, which for me made the cabin too confining...but it wasn't my car, so who could complain? Both were low EASY 12 SECOND 1/4 mile cars. I had to give each back unless I WANTED to get arrested AND have the cars confiscated as well.



What is the item in the illustration that looks like a Chiropractors spine display and the other rod that looks like a shift shaft component?
Last edited by panteradoug
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by JTpantera:
What is the item in the illustration that looks like a Chiropractors spine display and the other rod that looks like a shift shaft component?

Seat belts


I guess I wasn't expecting to see that? why would you show stock belt configuration here? I would expect competition shoulder harness and the aircraft type release seat belt.
accobraaccobraMember
George,

See the attached Invoice for my car it only mentions the rear 10" wheels ?

Doug,

I can confirm the goofy female end of the seat belt with the long stiff stem extending far above the plane of the seats .. is not on my std 73 Pantera ... but equip on my 79 GTS. Also the seat belt configuration lap and cross belt is different also and not recessed in the rocker but mtd more like a mustang with a std bolt.

Attachments

Hide
Images (1)
  • scan0001_(392x500)
7395gr3-757395gr3-75Member
I have a 5mm spacer, and I must have the spacers because the big Gr3 brakes, I can't put on the front rim without spacer, the rear rim have perhaps 1-1.5 mm clearance without spacer.

it is unable to put on stock spare wheel on a Gr3 Pantera with big Gr3 brakes.

There are more parts in the suspension which is unlike on stock Pantera brake and big Gr3 brakes.

The Gr3 safety belt was a Britax 4-point safety belt most likely made ​​by Sabelt in licence of Britax.

The charts is one of several performance parts, Gr3 parts was marked with * at part no. But not all Gr3 parts are in any of those two parts catalogs that I have.

The part catalogs is from ca 1975.

JTpantera Yes it seat belts but Not Gr3 seat belts.

It was possible to put on the Gr3 parts on "L", GTS, GT5, GT5S Pantera.
B bdudMember
I believe the GRP3 brakes are similar to the later Pantera brakes. My car has those bigger brakes and I can run 15" x 8" all round without any wheel spacers. Attached is an old photo, the calipers have all been plated with new stainless pistons and seals. These brakes were used on many other cars, Aston Martin, AC Cobra, Masarati going by the pad equivalent charts, maybe different spacer shims were used between each caliper half depending on rotor thickness.

Attachments

Hide
Images (1)
  • Scan
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by bdud:
A picture of my front calipers split, no seal between the 2 halves.

Anders, it looks like you have a thin spacer on your hubs as well, is that the case?
If you do not use the spacers, where do your wheels hit on the calipers?


Here I have some personal experience on this subject.

First off, to move the caliper further inboard for more wheel clearance, you can shim it. You can machine spacers for it if you really need to move it back, then use longer bolts.

The critical factor though that controls that is the offset of the rotor. I think what is at play here, causing the variations in wheel clearance, is that there are several rotors being used in these different set ups?

Whatever location you determine the caliper should be located at, you still have to center the rotor in in. I've used hardened shims for this. Some as thin as .010" to get them right.

The rotors are all 12" (304.8mm) diameter and 1.25" (31.75mm) thick but the offsets are varying by what looks like up to 1/2" (13mm) or so.

I'd bet you a nickle, i.e., a US 5 cent piece, that the calipers are all the same, but the rotors vary? The spacers on this thickness rotor all look the same.

The simplest solution is to put the caliper where it needs to go to clear everything, then forget about finding an original application rotor that will fit. Just do what Anders did. Find a hat that comes close, or have some made to your specs. Those should last forever since you can change the rotor rings separately as need be.

Bdud. Do you have pictures of your rear brakes that you can post? Also, what is used for a gasket between the spacer and two halves on these calipers? Just silicone?
bosswrenchbosswrenchMember
FWIW, the front and rear brake rotor assemblies are illustrated slightly differently in the early(?) Euro GTS/Gr-3 Parts Supplement, compared to the later(?) Supplement. In the early list, front & rear rotor spacers have their own part numbers, while in the late list, only the rear spacer is listed separately. On another page of the late list, the front ('anteriore') spacer is shown as part of a three-piece front rotor ass'y (rotor/hat/spacer).

Neither Parts Supplement is dated, but my early one has 11 pgs (came with the factory GR-3 brakes I installed on my partner's non-Euro pre-L in the early '80s), while Anders' later listing has 14 pgs & a few more parts. I'm assuming the first list is 'early' since pg 1 shows the famous skeltonized pushbutton Pantera with prototype multi-slat seats, while the 'later' list shows a flared-fender GTS/Gr 3 with rectangular door-pulls on pg 1.

I don't dare draw too many more conclusions based on artists' illustrations, but the later List also shows a fully baffled & trap-doored '10-liter' oil pan with rectangular pump pickup, that looks a LOT like a U.S-made Aviaid '10-qt' racing ass'y. In both Euro Parts Supplements, the GTS/GR-3 had its own front & rear upright part numbers, so the front spindles may have been a bit different from std. I know the very complete Gr-3 brake kit's rear outer stub-axles used double-row ball bearings at the inner position (to support 10" rear wheels). The '87 GT5-S used even wider straight roller bearings there (to support 13" wide rear wheels). Anders' dedicated Euro GTS/GR-3 web-site has more info and photos- (www.scuderiadetomaso.se)
B bdudMember
quote:
Do you have pictures of your rear brakes that you can post?

This is what I call bad timing. My media storage took a dump but its replacement is due tomorrow, so I am scanning my old photos at the moment.
Here is a picture of the rears also split and coated, they also have external brake pipes separating the halves.
Let me know if you want different pics. They have thinner ventilated rotors like Anders.

Attachments

Hide
Images (1)
  • Scan_1
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by bdud:
quote:
Also, what is used for a gasket between the spacer and two halves on these calipers? Just silicone?

The 2 halves are connected by an external brake pipe, no O rings or silicon required.
See picture.


You misunderstood. The calipers have an inner and outer half that are bolted together. Between those halves, what seals them?

I understand about the transfer tubes. The left and the right fluid chambers are only connected together by the tubes.


I've got the Aviad pan and that ain't it ^


For what it is worth, Wilkinson has the GT5 calipers listed new at $1,900 each and $600 each for the rotors. These don't make any great sense at all to install at that price, IMO.
Last edited by panteradoug
B bdudMember
quote:
quote:
You misunderstood. The calipers have an inner and outer half that are bolted together. Between those halves, what seals them?


I've got the Aviad pan and that ain't it ^


There are no fluid holes in the caliper halves except for the pistons and the 2 brake pipe screw fittings. To connect fluid from one half to another, the external brake pipe is used. There are no passage holes where the 2 halves join together, no seals required.
Anders post 54 has a nice picture of that joint pipe.

The sump I pictured is the stock or factory baffled unit with windage tray, listed in the parts supplement. My car had some of the GR3 parts options added from the factory which included an updated engine. I am not sure what sump is on the GT5's etc.
panteradougpanteradougMember
Yes. The Borg-Warners on the Fords are that way until the end of the '67 model year. They don't use the spacers in between the halves to adjust for rotor thickness though.

I suppose that spacer on the Girlings could be cut out of aluminum plate stock and save a pound or so on the complete assembly?

What year is your car? Is it a GT5? Those are some hefty rotors?

Cars this size and weight would never need a rotor that thick for street use. The thickness doesn't add to the stopping ability of the design. The thickness is there for greater cooling capability under heavy race conditions since the venting is so much more substantial.

That's why the rears on the US market cars were solid rotors.

As a matter of fact, it is doubtful that the Gp3, 4 or 5 brakes in the front have any more braking torque than US cars do? That is determined really by the leverage that the caliper has on the rotor and that is changed by increasing the diameter, the radius or lever arm on the center of the hub.

On a street car, the big brake are really for show more than anything else.
B bdudMember
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
I suppose that spacer on the Girlings could be cut out of aluminum plate stock and save a pound or so on the complete assembly?

What year is your car? Is it a GT5? Those are some hefty rotors?

I think those spacers are steel, could be aluminum.
My car is a 1978, they called it a GTS S on some of the DeTomaso paperwork. The last 4 digits of my vin are 9070 and there are some old pictures in the registry. If you have the Brooklands Books DeTomaso Collection No.1, 1962-1981 my car is in there plus in some other books & mags. Page 66, "On a wing and a prayer" is my car.
7395gr3-757395gr3-75Member
quote:
Originally posted by George P:
Anders, the adjustable proportioning valve in the last picture, is it plumbed into the front circuit or into the rear circuit?

One other question, what size front tire do you have installed, are there any clearance issues?

Thanks,

-G


it is plumbed into the front circuit.
I have Pirelli P Zero 225/50 ZR 15

clearance issues

it depends on the "ground clearance" GR3 cars have different springs, my have red/white color marks in front and green in rear. vin 7400 have white front and green rear. I tried to lower the front a bit but then I got problems.

both my and 7400 and has tire contact marks close to the "rain water drain pipe" (hope you understand)
7395gr3-757395gr3-75Member
quote:
Originally posted by bdud:
quote:
I don't dare draw too many more conclusions based on artists' illustrations, but the later List also shows a fully baffled & trap-doored '10-liter' oil pan with rectangular pump pickup

My car has the factory sump as you described. Here is a picture.


it looks like my, how much oil hold your?

I have seen 9, 10 and 12 liters in various paper / books...
George PGeorge PAdmin.
quote:

Originally posted by Anders Hellberg:

... I have Pirelli P Zero 225/50 ZR 15 ... clearance issues ... it depends on the "ground clearance" ... I tried to lower the front a bit but then I got problems ... contact marks close to the "rain water drain pipe" ...



Anders thank you!

I'm surprised they left the proportioning valve plumbed in the front circuit.

I'm also surprised to read that the Pirelli P Zero, 225/50R15 front tires mounted on 15x8 wheels (18mm offset) with 5mm spacers (therefore 13mm net offset) are rubbing the inner wheel house!

Anyone else have problems with 225/50R15 front tires rubbing the inner wheel house?
B bdudMember
My tires on full lock, I think used to rub in the same area as Anders with 225/50/15 P Zero's, but I have some marks where it looks like someone has "relieved" that area. I don't have the adjustable sway bar but my calipers clear the regular 8" wheels.
I can't remember how much that sump held, I used an Armando sump for my present build.
My engine I am sure was nothing special even though the article said it had a tuned engine, 2 bolt block, closed chamber heads, hydraulic cam, cast iron intake, Holley 650 DP.
I disabled or gutted my stock proportional valve as it kept locking up my front brakes, even with a new seal kit. In my case I do feel, that the rears are doing the bulk of the work. I have some Republic wheels, Detomaso style 17x11 wheels arriving next week so I can run P Zeros all around, so I will check it better then.

George, I am thinking of going with 285/40/17 rather than the 335/35/17, maybe the narrower tire will be easier to live with and more fun, what do you think?
George PGeorge PAdmin.
quote:

Originally posted by bdud:

George, I am thinking of going with 285/40/17 rather than the 335/35/17, maybe the narrower tire will be easier to live with and more fun, what do you think?



Yes! Smiler

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

What a great thread. I learned much and enjoyed it even more. Thank you to all who have posted.



Agreed! Thanks to all. Please keep it up. Thumbs Up!

.
7395gr3-757395gr3-75Member
quote:


I'm also surprised to read that the Pirelli P Zero, 225/50R15 front tires mounted on 15x8 wheels (18mm offset) with 5mm spacers (therefore 13mm net offset) are rubbing the inner wheel house!


you misunderstood me, it was not with 225/50R15, it rubbing the inner wheel house at full lock.
but from a previous owner with widener tire most likely from the competition time..

on my former Pantera GTS sat wide Michelin TB race tires 240 or was it 270? :-/ on 8 x 15" no spacer and them rubbing the inner wheel house at full lock.

Maybe it was these Michelin TB15

Anyway nice tire, longstonetyres.co.uk recommended Michelin before Avon on my GR3 Pantera

Michelin TB15
Rim Width Alt Sizing Section Width (mm) Diameter (mm)
23/62-15 Michelin TB15 8.0 - 10.5 270/45VR15 268 625
26/61-15 Michelin TB15 10 - 11.5 295/40VR15 288 615
michelin tb15


Michelin TB5
Rim Width Alt Sizing Section Width (mm) Diameter (mm)
18/60-15 Michelin TB5F 6 - 8 225/50VR15 230 605
23/62-15 Michelin TB5F 8.5 - 10.5 270/45WR15 278 620
26/61-15 Michelin TB5F 9.5 - 11 285/40WR15 291 610

18/60-15 Michelin TB5R 6 - 8 225/50WR15 230 605
23/59-15 Michelin TB5R 8.5 - 10.5 265/40WR15 269 592
23/62-15 Michelin TB5R 8.5 - 10.5 270/45WR15 278 620
26/61-15 Michelin TB5R 9.5- 11 285/40WR15 291 610
29/61-15 Michelin TB5R 11 - 13 335/35WR15 341 616
F = front R = rear
michelin tb5
B bdudMember
quote:
Originally posted by Anders Hellberg:
GR3 have 1 in = 25,4 mm bore
Stock Pantera is 0,90 in = 23 mm bore

I just checked my original master cylinder, about 25.37mm with a vernier. I am now running a vendor replacement unit, I did not know they were different. The brakes do feel good, not much travel, running a rebuilt servo, maybe I was sent a 1" replacement.

Attachments

Hide
Images (1)
  • IMG_1276
George PGeorge PAdmin.
quote:

Originally posted by Anders Hellberg:

George P

should we /you move engine issues to Engines and Engine Systems Forum?



We'll leave this topic (thread) here for now, and see where it goes. It started with a question about wheel spacers, but the topic has progressed to cover several areas in regards to the equipment found on GTS and Group 3 Panteras. Who knows what other subjects we'll cover before its through. You, Ron and Brian have made a wonderful effort in detailing the differences, posting pictures, etc. Thank you. Sometimes when a topic has finished turning, twisting and winding its way through several subjects I have to change the title in order to better describe the material covered within.
bosswrenchbosswrenchMember
AC, none of the Panteras got aluminum master cylinders with single reservoirs. They were all dual reservoir cast iron with screw tops for each individual reservoir. ATE screw caps fit both brake & clutch reserviors.

I earnestly hope you drill a hole in the front trunk floor and install a tie-down stud & wing-nut for that spare! That is the prototype position for the spare, and the assembly launched like a 15-lb missle through the windshield in the original Euro crash tests! I carry mine there, but with a tie stud & nut.
accobraaccobraMember
Boss .. After some research I'm mistaken that master appears to be a GM style master and not the original. Kind of odd wouldn't you think for someone to replace it with that? Inside it is a dual reservoir separated by a divider.

The spare tire is just stored there for now so it doesn't find a home in my BOSS 302 ... I don't actually even drive the car at this time.
bosswrenchbosswrenchMember
AC, that type master was commonly sold as a replacement by many Pantera parts vendors in years past. There's often a bolt pattern adapter with a poly bushing inside to sort-of guide the short actuating rod. The constrained bushing squeezes down when things heat up, causing the rod to stick and brakes to lock on. Reaming out the hole fixes things- I've done it to afflicted cars on weekend runs using a Swiss Army knife.
7395gr3-757395gr3-75Member
quote:
Originally posted by bdud:
quote:
Originally posted by Anders Hellberg:
was it Holley 4777?

which intake can you check it?
have you paper that says DeTomaso part no on the intake?

Yes a Holley 4777-2 with no choke flap.
The intake had an aluminum tag, no piece of paper.


interesting K-621-JG is a 71 CJ Engine code Q Comp 8.6:1 according to TSB #4

I haven't seen an engine code tag before are there any more that have one?
does anyone have Detomaso code?

Detomaso code looks like this 608 AG, 613 J, and 621 JG. Maybe there are more


The only code I have manage to crack is.
Ford code K-613-J is De Tomaso code 613 J and it is a 351C 4V 71/72 M code
panteradougpanteradougMember
That is a 650 mechanical secondary Holley with mechanical secondary pumps, aka, a 650 double pumper.

The first digit of the date code is the last digit of the year. A three digit code would be a '60s carb, a four digit would be a 1970's built carb. The other digits are the month and day of the month.

IF I am interpreting that correctly, the date on that carb is July 17, 1972?

The -2 after the list 4777, is a revision of the original. I'm surprised that there was this carb made in 1972. I thought they were newer than that?

The aluminum tag is the Ford tag that identifies the engine. It is not a detomaso applied tag as far as I know.

The intake manifold is a production line iron manifold. The engineering number indicates that it is just probably the last variation of the production manifold.

It is probably what you will find on all of the 4v 351c's built all the way until production ceased?

The Europeans do not necessarily care for the aluminum intake manifolds since they cause issue with the carbs freezing up in weather below freezing.

The iron manifolds work better for those conditions.

I'm surprised that the carb is changed but the intake is not.

There is no performance benefit to switching to the Ford aluminum intake manifold. It is just a weight savings thing.

Why the engine tag is still on there is a question. Certainly racing the car would have taken the engine out of warranty. Maybe it was left there just for future identification for replacement parts?

I know that even on the Shelby race cars, the stock "Shelby" engines were left there on the race cars for customers.

This way if the new owner blew up an expensive race engine that he bought from Shelby, there would be no hard feelings over it.

Perhaps Detomaso worked the same way.

In the era, the stock 4v Cleveland was probably more than adequate for the Gp3 cars. Those would be raced in "club racing" and not the heavy duty racing were you had manufacturers competing against each other and wanted every available horsepower they could get out of the engines?
B bdudMember
quote:
Originally posted by Anders Hellberg:
quote:
Originally posted by accobra:
That looks like the same intake on mine ... whick is odd because the car is a 1979 Euro GTS with what appears to be a 73 intake ?


Mats Gorski had a D3ZE-9426-AA intake on his Pantera -75 VIN 7434 and a 4777 Holley.

bdud have you a D3ZE-9426-AA intake also?


Anders don't you mean a D3ZE-942 5 -AA intake?
Mine is a D1ZE-9425-BB, certainly cast iron.
A couple of websites..
http://www.mercurycougar.net/f...dex.php/t-26876.html
http://www.mustangtek.com/FordIntake.html

Attachments

Hide
Images (1)
  • IMG_1277
B bdudMember
quote:
Originally posted by Anders Hellberg:
quote:
Originally posted by bdud:
quote:
Originally posted by Anders Hellberg:
was it Holley 4777?

which intake can you check it?
have you paper that says DeTomaso part no on the intake?

Yes a Holley 4777-2 with no choke flap.
The intake had an aluminum tag, no piece of paper.


interesting K-621-JG is a 71 CJ Engine code Q Comp 8.6:1 according to TSB #4

I haven't seen an engine code tag before are there any more that have one?
does anyone have Detomaso code?

Detomaso code looks like this 608 AG, 613 J, and 621 JG. Maybe there are more


The only code I have manage to crack is.
Ford code K-613-J is De Tomaso code 613 J and it is a 351C 4V 71/72 M code

George mentions this tag number in one of his posts.
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...0052674/m/2990043404
7395gr3-757395gr3-75Member
quote:
Originally posted by bdud:
quote:
Originally posted by Anders Hellberg:
quote:
Originally posted by accobra:
That looks like the same intake on mine ... whick is odd because the car is a 1979 Euro GTS with what appears to be a 73 intake ?


Mats Gorski had a D3ZE-9426-AA intake on his Pantera -75 VIN 7434 and a 4777 Holley.

bdud have you a D3ZE-9426-AA intake also?


Anders don't you mean a D3ZE-942 5 -AA intake?
Mine is a D1ZE-9425-BB, certainly cast iron.
A couple of websites..
http://www.mercurycougar.net/f...dex.php/t-26876.html
http://www.mustangtek.com/FordIntake.html


yes of course D3ZE-9425-AA
7395gr3-757395gr3-75Member
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

The Europeans do not necessarily care for the aluminum intake manifolds since they cause issue with the carbs freezing up in weather below freezing. The iron manifolds work better for those conditions.

I'm surprised that the carb is changed but the intake is not.

Why the engine tag is still on there is a question. Certainly racing the car would have taken the engine out of warranty. Maybe it was left there just for future identification for replacement parts?

I know that even on the Shelby race cars, the stock "Shelby" engines were left there on the race cars for customers. This way if the new owner blew up an expensive race engine that he bought from Shelby, there would be no hard feelings over it.

Perhaps Detomaso worked the same way.

In the era, the stock 4v Cleveland was probably more than adequate for the Gp3 cars. Those would be raced in "club racing" and not the heavy duty racing were you had manufacturers competing against each other and wanted every available horsepower they could get out of the engines?



maybe it is "just" a tuned engine and not a GR3 engine... Confused

I spoke with a Swedish guy who competed with Pantera in the 80s - 90s and he is today high up in historic racing that DeTomaso came with an aluminum intake, but unfortunately he can't remember which intake it was. Frowner

I think also it was left there just for future identification for replacement parts.


quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

There is no performance benefit to switching to the Ford aluminum intake manifold. It is just a weight savings thing.


which Ford aluminum intake manifold?


quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

The aluminum tag is the Ford tag that identifies the engine. It is not a detomaso applied tag as far as I know.


I know it is a Ford plate, but DeTomaso also had engine data plates but I don't know how them looks like...
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

There is no performance benefit to switching to the Ford aluminum intake manifold. It is just a weight savings thing.


which Ford aluminum intake manifold?


There are two versions. One with a square bore Holley pattern, the other is a spread bore pattern.

The spread bore was the Boss 351 manifold and the square bore was over the counter.
George PGeorge PAdmin.
The aluminum dual plane manifold with Holley 4150 bolt pattern had either D1ZZ-9424-G or D1ZX-9425-DA casting numbers, was sold under part number D1ZZ-9424-G. It had two slots, and could accommodate an 850 cfm Holley. At least a few of the push-button Panteras were equipped with this manifold.

The D0AE-L iron manifold also had the Holley 4150 bolt pattern. Instead of two slots it had 4 holes which were so small in diameter that the manifold could not accommodate a carburetor larger than a 650 Holley without modification.

The spread bore aluminum manifold for Autolite 4300D carbs had a casting number of D1ZX-9425-CA. It was standard equipment on Boss 351 Mustangs, and is worth a mint $$$ to owners of those cars.

The spread bore iron manifolds, designed for the Autolite/Motorcraft 4300D carburetor had 4 holes, they had casting numbers beginning D1ZE, possibly D2ZE, and D3ZE. The primaries of the 4300D carburetor were the size of Holley 600 cfm carburetor butterflies, the secondaries were the size of Holley 1050 cfm Dominator butterflies. 300cfm (1/2 of 600) plus 525cfm (1/2 of 1050) equals 825 cfm. The carburetor was rated by Ford at 750 cfm. It has been my joke since 2001 that the spread bore 4300D carb was like a mullet hair cut ... business in the front and party in the back! Smiler

If a person wants to use an Autolite/Motorcraft 4300D (spread bore) carb, one of those D1ZE iron manifolds are almost a necessity. If you look at the carburetor mounting pad you'll notice the two small holes for the primary butterflies are in the middle of the manifold. The carburetor is off-set to the rear of the engine. This was done to improve part-throttle (cruising) performance at the expense of high performance operation. In addition to that alteration the D3ZE manifold also had a trench along the side of the carburetor mounting pad in order to supply exhaust gas to the EGR valve. Snake a chain through the D3ZE manifold and use it an anchor for your fishing boat ... that's about all it is good for.

It is the opinion of Pantera International that every 351C equipped with 4V heads is better-off with a Blue Thunder intake manifold (available in a "Pantera version") and a Demon Carburetors #1402020VE carburetor rather than the factory induction (including the De Tomaso single four barrel induction). However, there is a caveat to this recommendation; many applications will not realize any benefit unless:

(1) the engine is rebuilt to resolve any ring seal or valve seal problems
(2) the static compression is raised to approximately 10:1
(3) the ignition and carburetor are in good working order and tuned for the particular engine
(4) the camshaft and/or valve train are at least up to showroom 1971 351-CJ spec (but preferably upgraded beyond that spec)

Refer to sticky #3 in the engine forum for additional information.

-G
Last edited by George P
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by George P:



Snake a chain through the D3ZE manifold and use it an anchor for your fishing boat ... that's about all it is good for.

Every 1970 - 1974 351C 4V is better-off with a Blue Thunder manifold and a Demon Carburetors #1402020VE carburetor rather than the factory induction (including the De Tomaso single four barrel induction).

-G


That could be harmful to the environment. It should be recycled.



The carb recommended by Ford through the "Muscle Perts" program back in the day, was the 4181. That is the 850 double pumper with the 50cc secondary pump.

Their information claimed it was worth 15hp over other carbs on that engine. Probably any double pumper is but blame John Vermersch (now head of the Ford "Racing" aftermarket parts program) for these writings and recommendations. That was his job back then.



Dan Jones dyno testing "program" showed that the Blue Thunder needs runner modifications. It showed that the manifold has four good runners and four "bad" runners.

His partner in that program was able to port the manifold to somewhat equalize the runner flow balance. That you need to be very knowledgeable and talented to be able to do, not to mention having a flow bench at your service.



Back in the day I ran the Shelby version of that manifold and in the days of only a "seat of the pants dyno test" available found that the Edelbrock Torker was worth several 1/10s in the 1/4 over the Shelby.

The Shelby manifold was more suited to a Cleveland running an automatic transmission. On a manual trans car, especially using a solid lifter cam like the Boss351 version, it really is a dog, and not a Greyhound either.



With original iron 4v heads now, maybe the "Ford" script manifold to run would be the "Ford Motorsport" A341? That is a FORD modified casting of the Edelbrock Torker manifold with stuffer plugs built into the port runners at the ports to match the A3 heads.

I have one here to show you if you want to see it.

Since it is a modification of the Edelbrock molds, identical on the outside EXCEPT FOR THE ELIMINATION OF THE CHOKE HEAT CHAMBER UNDERNEATH, it will still bolt up to the 4v Ford iron heads. It has to be worth some horsepower over the regular Torker and certainly crispins up the throttle noticeably.

They are not common and not easy to find but they are worth the effort. It is arguably the best Ford logo single 4v manifold available.



With that manifold you can then take your pick of what Holley carb to run with. I found that a 4179, a 750dp was about right. Be warned though that carb is very rich at idle and will smart your eyes from the fumes.

Of course all of this depends on the camshaft you are going to use. Forget about the original 4v CJ hydraulic unit. But that all starts up another thread? Not to mention a "tuned" set of headers? Smiler


What George has said about camshafts, I would have to agree with. Factory cams are much more comfortable to live with in everyday driving. High performance cars in general, are not what you want to drive everyday as your everyday car. I'd rather drive a truck to be honest with you.

The "stock" Pantera's engine characteristics were a consideration of this delema. It was intended as an "everyday" use sports car, and for many was their only car.

For racing though, it is really too mild stock.
Last edited by panteradoug

Add Reply

Views: 1,550
Post

Membership Required

We're sorry. You must be signed in to continue. Sign In or Register
×
Are you sure you want to remove from your Block List?
×
Loading...
×
When you block a person, they can no longer invite you to a private message or post to your profile wall. Replies and comments they make will be collapsed/hidden by default. Finally, you'll never receive email notifications about content they create or likes they designate for your content.
Note: if you proceed, you will no longer be following .
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×