quote:Originally posted by "72 GTS:
Hello
May you advice me please ?
I need a (good) oil pan to (really) race the Pantera
Regards
Philippe
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Hello
May you advice me please ?
I need a (good) oil pan to (really) race the Pantera
Regards
Philippe
May you advice me please ?
I need a (good) oil pan to (really) race the Pantera
Regards
Philippe
The Aviaid pan is the original race designed oil pan for the Pantera.
You will also need an oil cooler to seriously race the car too.
http://aviaid.com/shopsite_sc/...s_sbf_cleveland.html
You will also need an oil cooler to seriously race the car too.
http://aviaid.com/shopsite_sc/...s_sbf_cleveland.html
Thank you Doug !
An oil cooler is already in place
Philippe
An oil cooler is already in place
Philippe
Yuu can also get the identical pan from Armondo's Oil Pans. He's a little cheaper, but you don't get the Aviaid decal on the side.
quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Yuu can also get the identical pan from Armondo's Oil Pans. He's a little cheaper, but you don't get the Aviaid decal on the side.
My last engine had a Kevko pan and it fit great. I believe it was about the least expensive pan that I had found. It was a ten quart baffled road racing pan.
Trying to save a few dollars on a pan may risk a lot of dollars on a blown engine.
It is best to stay with a design that has been proven in competition to work.
I have noticed that other manufacturers have copied what Aviaid has done as far as the trap doors, the oil scraper and the windage tray.
Just having more oil in the pan doesn't necessarily solve the problem.
It has to stay in the right place to be picked up by the pump.
Life expectancy of an engine at 7000 rpm without oil pressure is in micro seconds.
You simply cannot criticize the Aviaid design. It works. Proceed at your own risk.
I have the Aviaid on my Pantera but went with a Canton road race pan on my 68 GT350 simply because it is identical to the Aviaid "Trans-Am" pan, and it was 1/2 the price.
Canton was smart enough to copy the Aviaid, and their workmanship is impeccable.
It is a proven design also, just not theirs.
It is best to stay with a design that has been proven in competition to work.
I have noticed that other manufacturers have copied what Aviaid has done as far as the trap doors, the oil scraper and the windage tray.
Just having more oil in the pan doesn't necessarily solve the problem.
It has to stay in the right place to be picked up by the pump.
Life expectancy of an engine at 7000 rpm without oil pressure is in micro seconds.
You simply cannot criticize the Aviaid design. It works. Proceed at your own risk.
I have the Aviaid on my Pantera but went with a Canton road race pan on my 68 GT350 simply because it is identical to the Aviaid "Trans-Am" pan, and it was 1/2 the price.
Canton was smart enough to copy the Aviaid, and their workmanship is impeccable.
It is a proven design also, just not theirs.
When it comes down to it there's not too much science in an oil pan, the main aspect being holding back oil within the baffled trap door section. Functionally the Kevko design acheives the same as the Aviaid/Armando design at a reduced price.
Julian
Julian
Its pretty interesting to look at the different pan designs. Just my observation on the design of the Kevco pans (some of the pictures are not the Pantera specific pan?)....some pan reservoirs sit out to the side of the pan which would seem to be better for a true road racing pan because it stores oil in a better location for lateral G's, and the flooding of the pickup area during side to side cornering motion. But with the chassis rails going fore and aft on a Pantera dictates design to fit in between the rails?
The Armando pan that I have has a very large reservoir fore and aft that stores the oil directly under the engine, but not out to the sides, probably to fit within the rails. The interesting part of cornering forces is, under acceleration/deceleration in a corner there isn't a 100% lateral force but a combination fore and aft (acceleration and deceleration) and lateral (side to side) effects on the oil and the baffles. On the Armando pan he's places a baffle box around the pickup that gives a 45 degree angle to the baffles and separate reservoirs for each baffle door which takes into account the lateral cornering/decel/accel motions. The pickup that comes with the Armando pan is also much smaller than a stock pickup. Also the largest part of the reservoir is placed at the front which would flood the pickup under acceleration.
When I bought my pan from Armando I recall the price was $350 but we did a group buy.
The Armando pan that I have has a very large reservoir fore and aft that stores the oil directly under the engine, but not out to the sides, probably to fit within the rails. The interesting part of cornering forces is, under acceleration/deceleration in a corner there isn't a 100% lateral force but a combination fore and aft (acceleration and deceleration) and lateral (side to side) effects on the oil and the baffles. On the Armando pan he's places a baffle box around the pickup that gives a 45 degree angle to the baffles and separate reservoirs for each baffle door which takes into account the lateral cornering/decel/accel motions. The pickup that comes with the Armando pan is also much smaller than a stock pickup. Also the largest part of the reservoir is placed at the front which would flood the pickup under acceleration.
When I bought my pan from Armando I recall the price was $350 but we did a group buy.
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I may be mistaken but I believe the Armondo pan is identical to the Aviaid.
There is no room to go on the sides with additional tanks on the Pantera because of the rails.
The Mustangs have them and the Cobras also.
Initially the R model GT350's used the Aviaid Cobra 289 race pan. The 289 Cobra does not have a cross brace behind the sump like the Mustang does so the pan is long like the Panteras is.
The pan that became called the R model pan is essentially a 289 Cobra race pan with the shortening of the sump to accommodate the Mustangs rear cross brace.
If you look at the "Trans-am" Mustang pans you will see two that I know of.
One is by Aviaid and ends or starts under the balancer like a stock pan. The Bud Moore version extends forward under the front anti-sway bar at a 45 degree angle AND has a skid pad added.
The skid pad was necessary because chassis travel but the forward extension dangerously low.
All of these pans are chassis specific in order to fit the chassis of the intended vehicle.
SOME of the vintage Mustang racers will ONLY use the AVIAID stating that they blew engines with other manufactures pans.
I can tell you that my Canton Mustang pan is IDENTICAL TO THE AVIAID but there are at least two racers that I know of that blew engines with it and blamed the pan. They went back to Aviaid.
Yes the oil pans are interesting.
The Pantera doesn't have the reputation for blowing up race engines due to inadequate oiling.
The problem they had when they were factory raced was that Bud Moore, who supplied the engines to Detomaso used Hank the Crank crankshafts which were internally balanced.
For some inexplicable reason the Mallory metal wouldn't stay in the crankshaft in the Pantera, and yet that engine was being raced in NASCAR at the time as delivered to Detomaso.
Very strange. Maybe just those Italian saints needed homage that they didn't get.
When the cars were running they were as fast as anything on the track. The engines just wouldn't stay together.
Detomaso asked Ford for help on engine development but this was at a time when Ford was bailing out of the Pantera program.
Bad timing for sure.
Detomaso blamed Ford, and Shelby too. Fact is he needed to step up and take his own destiny in his own hands and was not capable of organizing a team himself.
Anyway, the Aviaid is the original race design pan and it works. If it isn't broken...don't fix it.
There is no room to go on the sides with additional tanks on the Pantera because of the rails.
The Mustangs have them and the Cobras also.
Initially the R model GT350's used the Aviaid Cobra 289 race pan. The 289 Cobra does not have a cross brace behind the sump like the Mustang does so the pan is long like the Panteras is.
The pan that became called the R model pan is essentially a 289 Cobra race pan with the shortening of the sump to accommodate the Mustangs rear cross brace.
If you look at the "Trans-am" Mustang pans you will see two that I know of.
One is by Aviaid and ends or starts under the balancer like a stock pan. The Bud Moore version extends forward under the front anti-sway bar at a 45 degree angle AND has a skid pad added.
The skid pad was necessary because chassis travel but the forward extension dangerously low.
All of these pans are chassis specific in order to fit the chassis of the intended vehicle.
SOME of the vintage Mustang racers will ONLY use the AVIAID stating that they blew engines with other manufactures pans.
I can tell you that my Canton Mustang pan is IDENTICAL TO THE AVIAID but there are at least two racers that I know of that blew engines with it and blamed the pan. They went back to Aviaid.
Yes the oil pans are interesting.
The Pantera doesn't have the reputation for blowing up race engines due to inadequate oiling.
The problem they had when they were factory raced was that Bud Moore, who supplied the engines to Detomaso used Hank the Crank crankshafts which were internally balanced.
For some inexplicable reason the Mallory metal wouldn't stay in the crankshaft in the Pantera, and yet that engine was being raced in NASCAR at the time as delivered to Detomaso.
Very strange. Maybe just those Italian saints needed homage that they didn't get.
When the cars were running they were as fast as anything on the track. The engines just wouldn't stay together.
Detomaso asked Ford for help on engine development but this was at a time when Ford was bailing out of the Pantera program.
Bad timing for sure.
Detomaso blamed Ford, and Shelby too. Fact is he needed to step up and take his own destiny in his own hands and was not capable of organizing a team himself.
Anyway, the Aviaid is the original race design pan and it works. If it isn't broken...don't fix it.
Doug you're right on the chassis specific issues. I remember the Boss 302 cars getting these crazy looking wide pans with reservoirs sticking out the side but they had plenty of room.
Interesting to then look at dry sump systems that needed to be developed around the late 60's early 70's because the lateral G's were getting so high due to better tire compounds that a wet sump just couldn't keep the pickups covered (CanAm cars that could generate 1 to 1.5 G's in a corner).
Interesting to then look at dry sump systems that needed to be developed around the late 60's early 70's because the lateral G's were getting so high due to better tire compounds that a wet sump just couldn't keep the pickups covered (CanAm cars that could generate 1 to 1.5 G's in a corner).
quote:Originally posted by Tom@Seal Beach:
Doug you're right on the chassis specific issues. I remember the Boss 302 cars getting these crazy looking wide pans with reservoirs sticking out the side but they had plenty of room.
Interesting to then look at dry sump systems that needed to be developed around the late 60's early 70's because the lateral G's were getting so high due to better tire compounds that a wet sump just couldn't keep the pickups covered (CanAm cars that could generate 1 to 1.5 G's in a corner).
The Mustangs really don't have plenty of room at all.
The lower control arm pivot point is close in there, and that's the same volume of space that
the headers want to occupy.
the Pantera actually has less obstructions and the "boat" pan design fits in very well.
There were more then a few dry sump cars built but space becomes and issue with some of them. You need a place to put the oil tank and the size of the oil lines are at least -12. Then you need to work the pumps in. Forget about it in a Pantera.
This is one of the reasons that Carrol Smith deemed the Pantera unraceable for Ford. Ford basically abandoning the car after that report. The GT40 having been conceived of as a race car from the beginning was more adaptable to necessary accessories like a dry sump, and access to it because of the flip tops. The Pantera being a GT doesn't adapt well to all out racing requirements as it is built new.
The GT40's were the first I remember seeing with dry sumps and I think those were the Mk II's (the 427 cars). Certainly the Mk IV is dry sump.
I don't remember if the Mark I Shelby Team cars are wet or dry sump.
The only major differences I have seen that are available in a wet sump are the SB Chevys. They have an optional "swing" pick-up.
You'd have to ask Randy Gillis but I think most of the Trans-Am Boss 302 cars got the Bud Moore stile pans.
This is the SB Ford Trans-Am pan for the Mustangs. The Bud Moore is a little different in the front and projects further making it necessary to use a skid plate on it.
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I have one of these on my engine. Its an old Moroso oil pan, My car was freshened up by Hall, this was one of what he did. The others were not around at the time so it was limited. Its probably a high capacity for the time but, I can tell you it is not baffled well if at all, I know this because I have lost oil pressure in hard cornering. I will probably go with an Armando pan on my new/refreshed 351C when the time comes unless I am convinced otherwise, second is the Kevco.
From what I heard or read Armando use to work for Avaid or Canton and stated doing his own thing here in calif, but is know in Texas, Kevco is another guy who started up and is making pans, all good but who's the best?????
Mark
From what I heard or read Armando use to work for Avaid or Canton and stated doing his own thing here in calif, but is know in Texas, Kevco is another guy who started up and is making pans, all good but who's the best?????
Mark
You need a full road race oil pan. Canton and Moroso do not list one for the Pantera.
Aviaid, Armondo, and Kevko do.
A Mustang pan with side tanks might fit, but I doubt it. That's why there is a Pantera specific pan.
Kevko isn't even showing accurate photos of it, so to me it is a bit of a mystery.
I personally went with the Aviaid. Armondo used to be a lot less...but times have changed? It is identical to the Aviaid...except for the decal.
The Kevko is over $100 less.
The only thing I'm disappointed in with any of them is I would prefer the pan to have bungs fore and aft for oil drain back tubes as shown on the recommended oil pan in the Ford Boss 302 Engine Modification for racing.
A lot of people say they aren't needed but I like the option of having them available.
How much is a new engine? Is it more than $100?
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Bud Moore Trans Am MUSTANG pan with skidplate.
The side tanks won't fit in a Pantera.
Aviaid, Armondo, and Kevko do.
A Mustang pan with side tanks might fit, but I doubt it. That's why there is a Pantera specific pan.
Kevko isn't even showing accurate photos of it, so to me it is a bit of a mystery.
I personally went with the Aviaid. Armondo used to be a lot less...but times have changed? It is identical to the Aviaid...except for the decal.
The Kevko is over $100 less.
The only thing I'm disappointed in with any of them is I would prefer the pan to have bungs fore and aft for oil drain back tubes as shown on the recommended oil pan in the Ford Boss 302 Engine Modification for racing.
A lot of people say they aren't needed but I like the option of having them available.
How much is a new engine? Is it more than $100?
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Bud Moore Trans Am MUSTANG pan with skidplate.
The side tanks won't fit in a Pantera.
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I say give the Kevko pan a shot. Take a look at this photo of the Kevko pan, it looks almost identical to the Armando pan. The windage tray, scraper, side construction and bolt holes to hold the windage tray look identical, if you look down inside the sump area it looks the the baffling is at an angle just like the internals on my Armando pan (see earlier pic in this thread). I'm betting that Aviad did the R&D, and Armando and Kevko copied the pan. I'll post a picture of my Armando pan with the windage tray installed.
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Armando pan showing baffle in place. Check out the scraper, baffle and side constructions....looks real close to the Kevko pan.
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quote:Originally posted by Tom@Seal Beach:
I'm betting that Aviad did the R&D, and Armando and Kevko copied the pan.
You would win that bet. Why copy a looser
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Top view of Bud Moore Trans-Am Mustang pan. It projects so far in front it needs truss supports on the front tank.
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quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
You need a full road race oil pan. Canton and Moroso do not list one for the Pantera.
Aviaid, Armondo, and Kevko do.
A Mustang pan with side tanks might fit, but I doubt it. That's why there is a Pantera specific pan.
Kevko isn't even showing accurate photos of it, so to me it is a bit of a mystery.
I personally went with the Aviaid. Armondo is $25 less. It is identical to the Aviaid...except for the decal.
The Kevko is over $100 less.
How much is a new engine? Is it more than $100?
Doug,
I think you're right, let's go for a proven solution ... Aviaid or Armando
FWIW:
Kevco: Last summer, I purchased a Kevco Pantera 351C oil pan for a friend. He had his mechanic install the pan, so I didn't actually see the problem. All of the bolt holes (except for the front and rear 5/16" bolt holes) on one of the pan's rails were waaay off. The mechanic called Kevco. The person that he spoke with at Kevco was not very friendly upon hearing the problem, and insisted that their products always fit, yada yada. They finally agreed to send another pan, but only if the customer paid (again) for it. Since the engine was out of the car and waiting for the oil pan, this was the most expeditious way to finish the project.
The new oil pan fit better, but the mechanic still had to slightly elongate the same problem holes. Kevco sent a call tag (with the replacement pan) for returning the first pan. It took over a month (with phone calls almost every day) to receive a refund.
This may have just been a one-off problem, but I don't know.
Aviaid: Last month, I installed an Aviaid pan on a friend's Pantera. I placed the pan upside down on a flat surface. The pan's rails did not sit flat on the "test" surface. The pan had a slight twist. It would "rock" slightly, pivoting on diagonally opposite corners. A slight downward pressure on the pan caused the rails to sit flat against the test surface, but releasing the pressure caused the pan to return back to its previous state. I determined that the pan bolts would take care of the pan's slight twist.
Upon installing the pan on the engine, I discovered that the bolt holes on the pan's right side rail were slightly off, but that the bolts could be started by hand. The install was successful.
Armondo: No experience.
Recent prices:
Kevco $330.00
Aviaid $437.95
Armondo $439.00
John
Kevco: Last summer, I purchased a Kevco Pantera 351C oil pan for a friend. He had his mechanic install the pan, so I didn't actually see the problem. All of the bolt holes (except for the front and rear 5/16" bolt holes) on one of the pan's rails were waaay off. The mechanic called Kevco. The person that he spoke with at Kevco was not very friendly upon hearing the problem, and insisted that their products always fit, yada yada. They finally agreed to send another pan, but only if the customer paid (again) for it. Since the engine was out of the car and waiting for the oil pan, this was the most expeditious way to finish the project.
The new oil pan fit better, but the mechanic still had to slightly elongate the same problem holes. Kevco sent a call tag (with the replacement pan) for returning the first pan. It took over a month (with phone calls almost every day) to receive a refund.
This may have just been a one-off problem, but I don't know.
Aviaid: Last month, I installed an Aviaid pan on a friend's Pantera. I placed the pan upside down on a flat surface. The pan's rails did not sit flat on the "test" surface. The pan had a slight twist. It would "rock" slightly, pivoting on diagonally opposite corners. A slight downward pressure on the pan caused the rails to sit flat against the test surface, but releasing the pressure caused the pan to return back to its previous state. I determined that the pan bolts would take care of the pan's slight twist.
Upon installing the pan on the engine, I discovered that the bolt holes on the pan's right side rail were slightly off, but that the bolts could be started by hand. The install was successful.
Armondo: No experience.
Recent prices:
Kevco $330.00
Aviaid $437.95
Armondo $439.00
John
Pantera Performance in Colorado sells an all aluminum version of the Aviaid Pantera oil pan (which I believe is made for them by Aviaid).
John, the problem is that the cores are no longer Ford. They are aftermarket.
At one time you had to send Aviaid your original pan in exchange.
I have only installed two of these pans. Aviaid on the Pantera, and Canton on my 68 Shelby.
I used ARP pan studs on both and used flanged hex nuts on both.
Both pans needed to be jacked up into place on a floor jack and then tapped down into place.
I may have enlarged the holes in the pan slightly as well.
Considering that they are gas welded on relatively thin gauge sheet steel, I'm not shocked that either need to be fit.
I would expect that from any of them.
As the expression goes, "there is no such thing as a true bolt on!"
I've seen worse. I had a set of JBA headers for the 68 Shelby that I paid $995 for. They were absolutely beautiful out of the box and fit perfectly, sort of... except for one little thing...the pitman arm hit the #5 tube and as a result the car couldn't turn left. OOOPS!
Oh, and the special z-bar they made for this setup, it didn't fit either.
Don't buy JBA.
Well they refunded my money, but I had to pay to ship them back AND they blamed the RETAILER and took the refund out of his account.
I have a ball peen hammer here just for explaining things to them. I just love to meet with factory Reps. I guaranty they won't pull attitude on me EVER AGAIN AND SURVIVE...PROMISE! Don't worry, even if they do survive...they don't remember a thing...especially their own names. Something to do with experiencing sudden impact?
The retailer used different tactics. He dropped the entire JBA line.
I would recommend the Aviaid pan for the Pantera or the Canton for a Mustang for that matter. Issues for either are relatively minor. Both are excellent quality.
The Pantera pan hasn't come off since original install but the Canton has. On re install the Canton went right back on. None of this twisted/misalignment of the original install.
It took the proper set after running the car.
An aluminum pan sounds nice, but around here pits even just sitting in the garage. Sounds nice though. These steel pans aren't particularly light.
At one time you had to send Aviaid your original pan in exchange.
I have only installed two of these pans. Aviaid on the Pantera, and Canton on my 68 Shelby.
I used ARP pan studs on both and used flanged hex nuts on both.
Both pans needed to be jacked up into place on a floor jack and then tapped down into place.
I may have enlarged the holes in the pan slightly as well.
Considering that they are gas welded on relatively thin gauge sheet steel, I'm not shocked that either need to be fit.
I would expect that from any of them.
As the expression goes, "there is no such thing as a true bolt on!"
I've seen worse. I had a set of JBA headers for the 68 Shelby that I paid $995 for. They were absolutely beautiful out of the box and fit perfectly, sort of... except for one little thing...the pitman arm hit the #5 tube and as a result the car couldn't turn left. OOOPS!
Oh, and the special z-bar they made for this setup, it didn't fit either.
Don't buy JBA.
Well they refunded my money, but I had to pay to ship them back AND they blamed the RETAILER and took the refund out of his account.
I have a ball peen hammer here just for explaining things to them. I just love to meet with factory Reps.
I guaranty they won't pull attitude on me EVER AGAIN AND SURVIVE...PROMISE! Don't worry, even if they do survive...they don't remember a thing...especially their own names. Something to do with experiencing sudden impact?The retailer used different tactics. He dropped the entire JBA line.
I would recommend the Aviaid pan for the Pantera or the Canton for a Mustang for that matter. Issues for either are relatively minor. Both are excellent quality.
The Pantera pan hasn't come off since original install but the Canton has. On re install the Canton went right back on. None of this twisted/misalignment of the original install.
It took the proper set after running the car.
An aluminum pan sounds nice, but around here pits even just sitting in the garage. Sounds nice though. These steel pans aren't particularly light.
Installed an Aviad pan a month or so ago, purchased from Bob Byers, bolted straight on no problems,
to be picky the construction workmanship is a little to be desired all the welds are laped not butt welded, and the plating was only so so. polished up well with some 000 steel wool though.
to be picky the construction workmanship is a little to be desired all the welds are laped not butt welded, and the plating was only so so. polished up well with some 000 steel wool though.
quote:Originally posted by Chris Wilson:
Installed an Aviad pan a month or so ago, purchased from Bob Byers, bolted straight on no problems,
to be picky the construction workmanship is a little to be desired all the welds are laped not butt welded, and the plating was only so so. polished up well with some 000 steel wool though.
The welding is similar on all of them but the
Canton workmanship presentation is better but remember these are made as race pans, not for cosmetics.
Plating is just gold cad. I'll probably send it for power coating next time it comes out?
Here's the deep sump Moroso pan that fits on a Pantera. All it is, is a deeper sump with no baffles. The stock pan is better with it's minimal baffling I think.
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Here's the top view.
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Here I am seeing the price of the Armondo is MORE then the Aviaid!
I'm the looker hey?
I'm the looker hey?
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Guys,
after all discussions about WHICH alternative pan to take:
Do i really need a special pan?
Engine is a 408 with road tires an big external oil cooler.
I am just assembling my car, unfortunately the guy who built the engine used a oil pan for the Mustang, it simply doesn't fit into the pantera. I am located in Europe, so ordering a special one takes long and is VERY expensive.
So, do i really need a special one or can i use the original pan?
Thanks
Andy
after all discussions about WHICH alternative pan to take:
Do i really need a special pan?
Engine is a 408 with road tires an big external oil cooler.
I am just assembling my car, unfortunately the guy who built the engine used a oil pan for the Mustang, it simply doesn't fit into the pantera. I am located in Europe, so ordering a special one takes long and is VERY expensive.
So, do i really need a special one or can i use the original pan?
Thanks
Andy
It depends on your usage. If you never intend to use the car driven hard and just are going to drive it around like you would your 72 Country Squire station wagon then the answer is probably no you don't, but I would at least use the Boss 351 pan with the internal baffling.
But then again I'd question why you need 408 cubes, an oil cooler and a Pantera. But that's just me. I'm just the burr under the horses saddle, but then again, everyone here already knew that.
But then again I'd question why you need 408 cubes, an oil cooler and a Pantera. But that's just me. I'm just the burr under the horses saddle, but then again, everyone here already knew that.
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
It depends on your usage. If you never intend to use the car driven hard and just are going to drive it around like you would your 72 Country Squire station wagon then the answer is probably no you don't, but I would at least use the Boss 351 pan with the internal baffling.
The 351 Cobra Jet motor had the same pan as the 351 HO (Boss) motor. See the picture below. No baffles, just a minimalist windage tray & mid-section scraper. Don't forget the high volume oil pick-up (also in the picture), another integral part of the factory performance oil pan.
As an alternative the standard pan can be used with an aftermarket windage tray available from Milodon & Moroso, plus the high volume pick-up.
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
... I'm just the burr under the horses saddle ...
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Well
I've heard about front or rear oil pickup ?
Does this engine works two ways ?
I'll soon make my decision since Kevco has not replied my mail (rather uncomon for american guys !)
I've heard about front or rear oil pickup ?
Does this engine works two ways ?
I'll soon make my decision since Kevco has not replied my mail (rather uncomon for american guys !)
quote:Originally posted by "72 GTS:
Well
I've heard about front or rear oil pickup ?
Does this engine works two ways ?
I'll soon make my decision since Kevco has not replied my mail (rather uncomon for american guys !)
Not that I know of. There is only front pick up for a Pantera and I've not seen an application where the Cleveland oil pan needed to be modified into a rear pick-up.
What you may be thinking about is that in the 70's the 302 was being installed into the Mustang II, and in order to do that Ford had to make a duel sump pan, small one in front, bigger one in rear, in order to fit the 302 into that chassis.
There are some dual sump pans made for racing but it is the chassis configuration that determines which pan configuration to use.
Even though they are duel sump, they are still just single pick-up. The oil pump would be in the front just above the small sump and thr pickup would be in the rear sump on an extended tube to reach it.
I would call Kevko and not wait for them to email me back. For the difference in the price I'd go with the Aviaid, and did. You can't go wrong with it.
I did notice one thing with the Kevko though. The oil scraper is not the full length of the pan. On the Aviaid, it is.
Thanks Doug
Here's a picture of the engine at this time.
quote:What you may be thinking about is that in the 70's the 302 was being installed into the Mustang II, and in order to do that Ford had to make a duel sump pan, small one in front, bigger one in rear, in order to fit the 302 into that chassis.
Ford trucks with the Windsor used a rear sump oil pan.
quote:I did notice one thing with the Kevko though. The oil scraper is not the full length of the pan. On the Aviaid, it is.
I noticed that too.
John
@ PanteraDoug: The car is not for racing purpose, but also not for cruising only, so 1G cornering forces should be possible.
The question is which benefits a big sump has. For cornering only a deeper pan or some baffles make sense, a wider one does not garantee a better oil supply when cornering from my point of view. On the other hand more oil is good to equalize temperature peaks, but for this i have the oil cooler. So any ideas what the difference really makes?
Thanks
Andy
The question is which benefits a big sump has. For cornering only a deeper pan or some baffles make sense, a wider one does not garantee a better oil supply when cornering from my point of view. On the other hand more oil is good to equalize temperature peaks, but for this i have the oil cooler. So any ideas what the difference really makes?
Thanks
Andy
quote:Originally posted by jb1490:quote:What you may be thinking about is that in the 70's the 302 was being installed into the Mustang II, and in order to do that Ford had to make a duel sump pan, small one in front, bigger one in rear, in order to fit the 302 into that chassis.
Ford trucks with the Windsor used a rear sump oil pan.
John
Same issue. Front suspension is in the way. Ford cross beams and all. But it all works out. The Pantera has none of that in the way for a front sump.
quote:Originally posted by Panterrrra:
@ PanteraDoug: The car is not for racing purpose, but also not for cruising only, so 1G cornering forces should be possible.
The question is which benefits a big sump has. For cornering only a deeper pan or some baffles make sense, a wider one does not guarantee a better oil supply when cornering from my point of view. On the other hand more oil is good to equalize temperature peaks, but for this i have the oil cooler. So any ideas what the difference really makes?
Thanks
Andy
I think it more then coinsidence that 10 quarts seems to be the norm with a high performance oil pan.
With 5 quarts the engine is capable of pumping the pan dry at upper rpms. There is a reason most Fords, even high performance ones are restricted to 6000 rpm.
Just drag racing a Boss 351 with a 7000rpm limit, the car needs 8 quarts. Been there done that.
There are no side tanks for these pans on the Pantera. The extra capacity is added to the rear of the sump.
It all depends on the intended use? I had my car on Ford's Utica, MI test track. It has banked turns. 100mph is nothing on that track. Old ladys in shopping carts were going 125 through the turns. Where so you think the oil goes at 125 mph on a banked turn without internal baffling in the pan?
To me the Aviad pan is cheap insurance compared to what I have invested in the engine.
Did I even tell you that I spun in my own oil when I blew up the oil cooler hose? That could have cost a lot more then just an engine. Now all the hoses are braided metallic.
All personal choice. Personal perspective.
Everything I have done is for a reason.
There is a similarity here with being a fighter pilot. 99% of the time is sheer boredom, but the other 1% is pure terror. You don't have even time to think if all your equipment is ready to run. You just do it, but under those stresses a mechanical failure is sure death.
99% of the time in a car you need nothing of things like this. It's the 1% you need to provide for.
Best to be prepared without hesitation to my way of thinking.
I've done what I can to show anyone who is interested alternatives. Gentlemen, the choices are yours.
quote:Originally posted by "72 GTS:
Thanks Doug
Here's a picture of the engine at this time.
Needs a nice pretty gold oil pan!
Those remote filter hoses are huge. They look to be at least -12. Big Mommas!
I'm running -10 lines to the right side of the car where I have a dual remote filter mounted to the chassis and the hoses continue through to an oil cooler (like in the picture I posted) to the right side splash shield.
I have room in that spot because I'm running 180 degree headers which go up rather then down and under the chassis. This opens that area up to the oil filter and cooler use. Also have a Mocal oil cooler thermostat on the set up along with an auxiliary electric fan that turns on at 210 F automatically to blow through the cooler.
Doug,
Here's the oil cooling setup that was fitted on the car.
Would you advice to use 10mm lines ?
Here's the oil cooling setup that was fitted on the car.
Would you advice to use 10mm lines ?
Those look to me like -12 hoses. The AN system means that a -12 hose is 12/16", or 3/4"id.
The metric equivelent is 19.06mm. That's huge.
Usually -8 or 1/2" (and these are ID or inside diameter hoses) are recommended for an oiling system,
On my car I used -10, or 5/8" or 15.875mm id hoses. Those are plenty big enough.
USUALLY on dry sump systems you would use -12 hoses. Sometimes -16 or 1" or 25.4mm.
I definitely would eliminate as much of the unnecessary hose as possible. All that additional hose is an additional strain on the oil pump for no reason.
I understand the thought of using a remote oil filter and I suppose it is your choice of where to put it but I picked a different location then that.
When I did mine, it was before digital cameras and certainly before the days of my Sony digital, so I didn't take pictures.
As I said, I mounted my remote filter on the chassis near the right engine mount. I snaked the hoses under the oil pan over the chassis cross brace.
The Aviaid pan is notched there to clear the stock cross brace and makes a good protected spot to bring the hoses around under the pan but over the brace.
You guys are going to make me go crawling around under the car taking pictures and revealing all of my secrets.
I wonder if I will find any women s underwear and hotel room keys that they threw at me in there? Huh?
Probably just from the fat ones that you could make a tent out of?
The metric equivelent is 19.06mm. That's huge.
Usually -8 or 1/2" (and these are ID or inside diameter hoses) are recommended for an oiling system,
On my car I used -10, or 5/8" or 15.875mm id hoses. Those are plenty big enough.
USUALLY on dry sump systems you would use -12 hoses. Sometimes -16 or 1" or 25.4mm.
I definitely would eliminate as much of the unnecessary hose as possible. All that additional hose is an additional strain on the oil pump for no reason.
I understand the thought of using a remote oil filter and I suppose it is your choice of where to put it but I picked a different location then that.
When I did mine, it was before digital cameras and certainly before the days of my Sony digital, so I didn't take pictures.
As I said, I mounted my remote filter on the chassis near the right engine mount. I snaked the hoses under the oil pan over the chassis cross brace.
The Aviaid pan is notched there to clear the stock cross brace and makes a good protected spot to bring the hoses around under the pan but over the brace.
You guys are going to make me go crawling around under the car taking pictures and revealing all of my secrets.
I wonder if I will find any women s underwear and hotel room keys that they threw at me in there? Huh?
Probably just from the fat ones that you could make a tent out of?
Thanks doug
then, where's the oil cooler ?
then, where's the oil cooler ?
My oil cooler is mounted on the inside of the right splash shield.
It isn't as fancy as the louvered splash I posted in the picture, but it works well there none the less.
The motion of the right rear tire creates a vacuum and draws air through the cooler.
This may in fact have been the location of the Gp4 oil coolers on the factory race cars.
It isn't as fancy as the louvered splash I posted in the picture, but it works well there none the less.
The motion of the right rear tire creates a vacuum and draws air through the cooler.
This may in fact have been the location of the Gp4 oil coolers on the factory race cars.
Attachments
Images (1)
George,
The Pantera Si had holes in the rear fenders
The cooler is in the air flow ...
Doug,
sorry for my bad english understanding, but you mean that you mounted it in behind or in front of the wheel ?
I don't really understand, in fact, what is the "right splash shield" ?
The Pantera Si had holes in the rear fenders
The cooler is in the air flow ...
Doug,
sorry for my bad english understanding, but you mean that you mounted it in behind or in front of the wheel ?
I don't really understand, in fact, what is the "right splash shield" ?
"72 GTS,
Look at the picture I posted above. This is a picture of an aftermarket stainless steel splash shield.
It installs in the right rear fender well, in front of the wheel and tire.
The oil cooler gets mounted on to it. It mounts on the engine side of the shield.
The louvres are punched into it to permit the air to be drawn through the oil cooler, and then out through the louvres.
The circular motion of the wheel/tire, clockwise, draws the air through the oil cooler, then through the louvres, while the car is in motion and the wheel/tire are rotating.
The tire when it is in motion, acts as a fan.
Your English is very good. I am probably not illustrative enough. I am trying to speak Pantera.
Look at the picture I posted above. This is a picture of an aftermarket stainless steel splash shield.
It installs in the right rear fender well, in front of the wheel and tire.
The oil cooler gets mounted on to it. It mounts on the engine side of the shield.
The louvres are punched into it to permit the air to be drawn through the oil cooler, and then out through the louvres.
The circular motion of the wheel/tire, clockwise, draws the air through the oil cooler, then through the louvres, while the car is in motion and the wheel/tire are rotating.
The tire when it is in motion, acts as a fan.
Your English is very good. I am probably not illustrative enough. I am trying to speak Pantera.
Thank you Doug,
I "see" what you mean, Well I hope !
But you know, we are in a numeric era, in case you find a camera
(That's with respect !)
Philippe
I "see" what you mean, Well I hope !
But you know, we are in a numeric era, in case you find a camera
(That's with respect !)
Philippe
quote:Originally posted by "72 GTS:
Thank you Doug,
I "see" what you mean, Well I hope !
But you know, we are in a numeric era, in case you find a camera
(That's with respect !)
Philippe
I don't have any reservations in taking pictures, BUT in order to do them, I need to take the wheel off, then disassemble the splash shield, AND document everything as I do it.
If I take them from underneath, where everything is normally servicable from, you won't understand how everything relates to each other because of the perspective view that must be taken to get the camera in there.
I never thought when I did these installations that there ever would be anyone interested in seeing them?
The digital 35mm camera on Macro now makes it so easy to do. I did a lot of documentation with my Minolta 35mm at one time on slides. In looking at them though they have been turning green and loosing resolution.
Apparently they were being processed with the Fugi processing, but were Kodachrome film? This was typical for the era but not everyone was told this by the processing company. I wasn't. So now in many cases the pictures are crap, hard to see detail, AND need to be transferred to digital formatting. This is all fine but I have boxes, and boxes of slides to transfer. Many haven't been looked at in 30 years.
As far as the photo developers using the wrong processes on my slides, I didn't know, and I can't do everything. It is easier in a digital world to be more self reliant. It inables me to eliminate the scum bitches that cause the issues to begin with. (sorry for the new term GP. My wife coined it the other day when she got cut off by a Princess driving a SUV.
)The problem also Philippe with digital on Macro setting, I have so much polished stainless steel on the car, I have to put on clothes when I shoot the pictures so you don't see me in the reflections. That is against my nature and have to schedule it to shoot the pictures that you want to see.
Don't worry,
I'll not redesign the wheel, but I have a more precise idea now, as I said, I'm looking for proven solutions
Philippe
I'll not redesign the wheel, but I have a more precise idea now, as I said, I'm looking for proven solutions
Philippe
quote:Originally posted by "72 GTS:
Don't worry,
I'll not redesign the wheel, but I have a more precise idea now, as I said, I'm looking for proven solutions
Philippe
Worry, nah, not me!
In all seriousness though, I think that you need to install the engine and the exhaust system.
Where the exhaust is, the oil lines can't be, etc, so that is a large factor in race access to these accessories.
GP has another thread going for the oil coolers.
Here's my last post on it.
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...991011746#6991011746
Right,
I'm going to order an "Aviaid" soon, is there anything else I should consider ?
(already have a stock gasket)
Thanks
Philippe
I'm going to order an "Aviaid" soon, is there anything else I should consider ?
(already have a stock gasket)
Thanks
Philippe
For a race car I'd install an oil cooler too and I'd need to be talked out of oil drain back hoses into the oil pan.
The Cleveland racing head design is supposed to hold a quart or so of oil in the valve covers to cool the valve springs and reduce the likeliness of spring failure from fatigue.
My A3 heads always hold about 1-1/2" of oil in the covers.
I'm not sure if it's a good or bad idea to change that with drain back tubes. Those were an early solution on the iron heads used in the Boss 302's.
I use a Melling high volume oil pump and a chrome moly drive but with that drive be very, very sure that the gear retaining pins in the distributor are much more then just ok.
The Cleveland racing head design is supposed to hold a quart or so of oil in the valve covers to cool the valve springs and reduce the likeliness of spring failure from fatigue.
My A3 heads always hold about 1-1/2" of oil in the covers.
I'm not sure if it's a good or bad idea to change that with drain back tubes. Those were an early solution on the iron heads used in the Boss 302's.
I use a Melling high volume oil pump and a chrome moly drive but with that drive be very, very sure that the gear retaining pins in the distributor are much more then just ok.
I have been looking at some oil pans recently. Out side of the current offerings, I spoke with a rep at Canton and also one at Moroso. Both companies seemed willing to make a custom oil pan. They would build them to your specifications, just in case anyone is interested.
I'm curious, a wet sump racing oil pan is not rocket science. The current offerings from Aviaid, Kevko and Armando fit between the frame rails, they offer higher capacity (9qt verses 4qt), they have baffles and hinged doors to keep the oil at the pump inlet, they have windage trays and scrapers. What is to be gained by going elsewhere? Do Canton or Moroso offer a new twist?
quote:Originally posted by jimmym:
I have been looking at some oil pans recently. Out side of the current offerings, I spoke with a rep at Canton and also one at Moroso. Both companies seemed willing to make a custom oil pan. They would build them to your specifications, just in case anyone is interested.
Oil pans are old news. You just need to catch up on your reading. Everything you are asking for is now off of the shelf.
There is only one thing I can think of that as far as I know has never appeared in anything but a Chevy version of a pan? That's a 'swing' pick-up.
Canton is right in there with the others as far as the technology goes.
Moroso has circle track pans for Chebies but nothing for Fords besides big open drag race sumps.
The other thing is that Aviaid is no longer top of the heap as far as quality of workmansip.
I have a Canton and an Aviaid. The Canton makes the Aviaid look like a high school shop class project by comparison.
They won't even spring for a nice plating on it?
...and of course the Pantera pan is off all by itself because of the chassis rail configuration but don't worry, the pan builders already figured that out too?
I was looking for a 10 qt pan for a 427 stroker engine that I am having built. Aviaid offers a 7 qt. and Kevko offers an 8 qt. pan. Pantera Performance does offer a 10 qt. but has been selling them in aluminum. I was told that they used to sell one in steel, but haven't sold one in years. They are looking into it for me. I just figured I would let people know of a few more options. The gentleman that I spoke with at Moroso stated that the pan would be built with all extra's and not just a big sump.
Options aren't a bad thing.
Options aren't a bad thing.
quote:Originally posted by jimmym:
I was looking for a 10 qt pan for a 427 stroker engine that I am having built. Aviaid offers a 7 qt. and Kevko offers an 8 qt. pan. Pantera Performance does offer a 10 qt. but has been selling them in aluminum. I was told that they used to sell one in steel, but haven't sold one in years. They are looking into it for me. I just figured I would let people know of a few more options. The gentleman that I spoke with at Moroso stated that the pan would be built with all extra's and not just a big sump.
Options aren't a bad thing.
Correct. I always carry a change of clothes with me wherever I go?
quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:quote:Originally posted by jimmym:
I have been looking at some oil pans recently. Out side of the current offerings, I spoke with a rep at Canton and also one at Moroso. Both companies seemed willing to make a custom oil pan. They would build them to your specifications, just in case anyone is interested.
Oil pans are old news. You just need to catch up on your reading. Everything you are asking for is now off of the shelf.
There is only one thing I can think of that as far as I know has never appeared in anything but a Chevy version of a pan? That's a 'swing' pick-up.
Canton is right in there with the others as far as the technology goes.
Moroso has circle track pans for Chebies but nothing for Fords besides big open drag race pan.
I have a Canton and an Aviaid. The Canton makes the Aviaid look like a high school shop class project by comparison.
They won't even spring for a nice plating on it?
...and of course the Pantera pan is off all by itself because of the chassis rail configuration but don't worry, the pan builders already figured that out too?
The reason why I posted this was because of some of the reading I had done. Fitment issues with some of the current offerings and also the quality that was mentioned in the Aviaid pan versus the Canton pan. On an
other Cleveland site one of the engine builders stated that he found the Moroso pans to be very well made and uses them a lot for his engine builds. Again Kevko offers 8 qts, Aviaid offers 7 qts. I did not look into the Armondo pans. Pantera Performance offers a 10 qt. which I ended up purchasing.
Please post pictures of your new pan when you receive it.
Steve
Steve
quote:Originally posted by jimmym:quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:quote:Originally posted by jimmym:
I have been looking at some oil pans recently. Out side of the current offerings, I spoke with a rep at Canton and also one at Moroso. Both companies seemed willing to make a custom oil pan. They would build them to your specifications, just in case anyone is interested.
Oil pans are old news. You just need to catch up on your reading. Everything you are asking for is now off of the shelf.
There is only one thing I can think of that as far as I know has never appeared in anything but a Chevy version of a pan? That's a 'swing' pick-up.
Canton is right in there with the others as far as the technology goes.
Moroso has circle track pans for Chebies but nothing for Fords besides big open drag race pan.
I have a Canton and an Aviaid. The Canton makes the Aviaid look like a high school shop class project by comparison.
They won't even spring for a nice plating on it?
...and of course the Pantera pan is off all by itself because of the chassis rail configuration but don't worry, the pan builders already figured that out too?
The reason why I posted this was because of some of the reading I had done. Fitment issues with some of the current offerings and also the quality that was mentioned in the Aviaid pan versus the Canton pan. On an
other Cleveland site one of the engine builders stated that he found the Moroso pans to be very well made and uses them a lot for his engine builds. Again Kevko offers 8 qts, Aviaid offers 7 qts. I did not look into the Armondo pans. Pantera Performance offers a 10 qt. which I ended up purchasing.
I'm using an Aviaid pan, oil cooler, dual oil filers and an oil thermostat set to open at 210 F.
The entire system is 12 quarts.
Big pans on Panteras are problematic. On one hand you need the added capacity and the ability to keep it near the pickup because of the cars handling and cornering capabilities but it is VERY VERY IMPORTANT that the oil reaches normal operating temperature in the engine.
210 to 220 is a nice round number, otherwise you are doing more harm than good.
Thanks for the tip. I appreciate it.