Ricardo

Hi Dave,

I am the crazy nut having the Ricardo installed in my car, and to do it in a 351 or even a mod motor car is a challenge. Not that it cannot be done, but it does take some modifications. First off, the most obvious thing is that it is a wide transaxle, and longer than the ZF. Something has to be done to the frame rails so it does not hit them, and there is no kit to make this work. Then there is the issue of the transaxle mounts. It is held in place from above on the original setup, so either something totally new needs to be made up, or use the original setup and make something to fit in the Pantera. I know the bellhousing should fit up to a mod motor, but I do not know how it would work with the special clutch setup in the Ford GT/ Ricardo setup -- you are in unknown waters with that one. Steve Wilkinson would be the best resource for technical questions. He is installing the Ford GT engine and Ricardo into my car, and he is also installing a GT motor and ZF transaxle into another owners car -- so he has been dealing with "issues" longer than likely anyone else.

As far as the linkage goes, these are cable driven as on the Ford GT, and I do not know if you can route them under the intake manifold as on the Ford GT engine -- so placement of the cables may be an issue as well, unless they can be routed in a different area. There is also an issue with the output shafts of the Ricardo. They are very different than the ZF, so there would have to be a custom CV joint and an adapter at the wheel hub end to make it work properly. I am sure that anything can be done, but it is the same old answer -- time and money. I also do not know how the starter would be mounted in your particular instance. This is an issue with the Ricardo setups as well as the starter placement is just plain different -- again, Steve would be a good resource to see if he can help you at all.

I know the reason that I went this route is because of a light clutch feel and butter smooth accurate shifting. Otherwise I would have stayed with the ZF.

Best of luck with whatever you decide to do. But again, there is no one doing kits for this setup, so anything you do in this regard will be trail blazing; and that always means more time and $$$.

Cheers,

Mark

The only person I know who has done/is doing this is Steve Wilkinson - PanterasbyWilkinson.

Give him a call. (562) 634-3434

Larry

Mark,
You're not a nut by any means, the Ricardo has some advantadges over the ZF and it can be rather appealing. So I don't blame you for going that route, and I am quite interested to see your car when it has been completed.

The adapters to the engine and half shafts I'm not terribly concerned with. Niether am I over the mounting of the transaxle. All are time and money but not so much that I would consider them a deal breaker.

Thanks for the info on the shifter cables, I didnt know that they were routed under the intake on the GT. Same goes for the starter.

Do you know how far Steve had to move the frame rails on your car to get the ZF to fit? I am afraid I dont know the Input shaft to output shaft vertical distance on a Ricardo, so I dont really know how "low" the transaxle needs to sit in the car. Hopefully its not so great that a dry sump oiling system is required.

Thanks,
Dave

Hi Dave,

I do not know for sure, but my gut tells me that the dry sump issue is what will determine how it fits in the car; so your inference to the "height" of the engine in regards to the Ricardo is spot on. Steve would be the one to ask about the specific things that were done to my car.

So it seems to me if you are serious about going this route, you will need to know if a 351 or mod motor will be out because of dry sump requirements for the Ricardo -- Steve is your guy for that question. If you would like to PM me and send your e-mail, I would be happy to send you photos of what the Ricardo and GT motor look like in the car. I would have to say that the half shafts do look like they are in the stock location, and this is with the GT dry sump motor. I would be concerned with the height as well .......

Thanks,

Mark

Hello Mark,

Could you post the current pictures of your car in the car photo section? That way all of us could see. Last time I saw your car was the beginning of July with the headers fitted.

Thanks, David

Hi David,

Do you mean on the POCA site or this one?

Thanks,

Mark

Hi Mark,

I guess I was thinking this one, but either would probably do. I uploaded some pictures in bulk to the POCA site and some can't be seen. If I was planning the Ricardo install at other than Steve's shop, I would probably load it and the Pantera frame into a CAD program and play with it.

I think your engine sits lower than mine but I am not sure. Steve did a lot of bracing to my frame. I do know that Steve lowered my ZF about one and a half inches. The Ricardo is huge compared to the ZF.

Thanks, David

I have just posted photos of my car on the POCA site. Just look under the Mark Hoffman album -- you will see what has been done so far to the car to make the Ford GT and Ricardo fit. Long way to go, that's all I am going to say.

Enjoy,

Mark

quote:

you will see what has been done

Thanks Mark.

Nice to finally get a 'feel' for what Steve is doing.

Please post more, and I think there is more going on than just the modular/Ricardo swap, when available.

Larry

Hey Mark! Was that your car I saw when I visited Steve's shop Summer of 2008. Here's a pic. I can't wait to see it when it's finished.

Here's a pic I snapped of the re-engineered chassis.

garth66,

That's my car. I wonder whose car is over mine on the lift? I cannot wait until it is done as well. Steve and Bill are going over the top on this one.

Mark

Here is a link to the POCA site for the photos that I posted of the car with the Ricardo:

POCA Ricardo Photos

Enjoy!

Mark

Well sorry for the delay, but I had a rather interesting week.

Walked into work Monday morning and was told to hop a plane to Socal to visit a vendor, had some extra time so I managed to talk with Steve, in person!

Mark, Steve showed me your car, and its quite true you car has had some very extensive modifications done to fit the ford GT drive train, but it is looking outstanding. However, after talking with Steve I don’t believe a Ricardo behind an older pushrod motor would require anything near that much work.

Due to the Ricardo dimensions, in order to get the half shaft angle acceptable you need to sink the Ricardo down in between the aft frame rails. To fit the Ricardo in between the frame rails you need to increase the distance between them by more than a couple inches from a standard Pantera. So modifications are needed to the back subframe and suspension points are required, but again not as extensive as what was done to Mark's car (back-halfed) in order to fit the complete GT drive train.

I don’t think just going to a CV shaft kit would fix the problem, you will need to do some modification of the aft frame rails. You may be able to get away with just sectioning the rails, but its hard to say. Really just need to get a Ricardo, bolt it up to an engine and start doing check fits to find out I think.

Hopefully that helps other people know what is required for the swap, besides the ambiguous "extensive modifications”.

Dave

I'm kinda at a loss why you'd want to put a Ricardo behind an older pushrod motor and do all that work to make it fit? What's so special about the Ricardo? If you look at the total install costs and figure that into you transaxle budget you can get one hell of a transaxle, even a full sequential for the same investment.

You know Ford's first choice for the new GT was a ZF right? They went with the Ricardo because they took a look at RBT's ability to produce 5,000 odd transaxles and decided they needed another option.

Julian

Hi Dave,

The other thing that you have to be careful about on the Ricardo is the differential final drive ratio. I believe it is 3.31 or something crazy like that. With the power of the GT motor, it is not as big an issue as if you had something that was not as powerful (i.e. 650 HP with 600 ft/pounds of torque). There is a 3.90 final drive ratio offered, but that is quite pricey at $7,000; just for the kit! Most Pantera ZF's have a 4.22 final drive ratio -- so they can really go off the line!

That is the bad news, the good news on why you would want such a thing is that this transaxle has triple synchros on first thru third gears, then it has double on the rest. This means that this transaxle will shift like butter, everytime. There will be no notchy feel, and with the cable shift, it will be spot on until it needs to be adjusted like everything does. I do not know for a fact, but I thought I heard that the ZF was used on the prototype cars and they never intended to use it on the production cars -- they went with Ricardo because of the newer technology, and I am sure, for the production requirements.

Joules, have you ever driven a Ford GT? I have not, just curious if you have any first hand knowledge of what it is like to drive such a thing. I am hoping for a smooth shift and light clutch pedal -- this is what I have read anyway, so we shall see..... I am looking for gas, key, and go. I have enough other cars to work on all of the time.....

Mark

Mark,

Don't get me wrong, I admire what you are doing with the FGT motor and transaxle and follow your updates rigorously. I'm sure you will achieve your goals for a light clutch and smooth shift, but I wonder if you will lose much of the uniqueness that is a Pantera in the first place? As they say we are a diverse group and each to his own.

If money is no object you can achieve whatever your heart desires. But in general the later posts here sounded more like dropping a Ricardo in was driven by the fact a recon transaxle was cheap now and about the same as a ZF. That may be so for a bare Ricardo, but I undertsand the unique starter motor to go with it is $800 alone. With the expense of the mods required for a transaxle swap to a Ricardo there are other equally good options one shoudl be at least considering out there. For example you can get a Gearfox or numerous other equally suitable transaxles that likely won't require such extensive mods to the subframe. Personally at that level of expenditure I'd go fully sequential, but then again if I was spending that sort of money personally I'd have bought the rest of the FGT too.

My personal experience with cable shifters is they are finicky and a PITA. The cables stretch and give a very different feel/feedback when hot and cold. Ford seem to have the best I've come across, but will all that transcend across to the Pantera?

FWIW I'm currently looking at the Mastershift system, that converts a ZF or any cable shift to a semi sequential. You can have a conventioanl bump gear selector or a paddle shifter.


http://mastershift.com/new-str...manual.html#proddesc


Cheers,
Julian

Julian,

Yes, it would have been a lot cheaper to purchase a Ford GT, no question about it. They are wonderful cars mechanically and a feast for the eyes. I have always been a hot rodder at heart, so when I learned that there is a group of people that modify their cars in the mechanical and body areas, well, I was hooked. Ford GT guys modify their cars too, but it is not the same, if you know what I mean. Very rarely will they modify the body, so mechanical stuff gets modified, if anything.

Anyway, I know I am getting long winded with this, but I think the golden era of cars stopped in the mid to late 70's. The Pantera has such a wonderful story, and in Group 4 form it is very hard to say it is an ugly car -- I know there will be some, but they will be in the minority. Couple that with the ultimate factory Ford motor of the modern era and now you will have combined a gorgeous body with a reliable, refined mechanical system and now you have something that, in my mind, is worth more than a Ford GT. I know this will not be the case for most people, but then again, I am not most people. I put value on a well executed resto mod where others outside this forum will always poo poo any modifications from stock.

I just hope that the modification work out as well as I hope, and any snafus will be corrected and I have something that drives comparably to a Ford GT, or better.

Mark

Well since I started this post I might as well state all the reasons why I find the Ricardo an attractive option.

First, my car has dash 1 ZF which is currently getting rebuilt. About 50% of the people I talk to tell me to junk it, and the other 50% tell me there are no problems with using it. So thats kinda what prompted the search.

Ricardo seems to be a pretty stout transmission, and I have been told they shift nicely even though I have never driven a GT so its all second hand accounts. The Ricardo price has dropped to about on par with the ZF, and is still cheaper than other transaxle options like the ZFQ (as stated though modifications will raise the overall price). Plus these are running around in the GT's, thier reliability is pretty well documented.

Basically, if I've got about 50% of the people I talk too (Vendors etc) telling me the that a -1 is not worth it for street use, I'm going to look at other options (Ricardo and others) before spending a ton of cash for a -2.

Dave

Hi Dave,

The one thing that I would be hesitant about is the rear diff ratio in the Ricardo. It is nothing close to the ZF transaxle -- if you want to distill it down to the main issue if you have no trouble with mods, then this is it, IMHO. The Ford GT gets around that by brute power; and there is a modification to the Ricardo Ford GT transaxle -- but it is expensive.

I guess it all depends what you are going to do with your car -- I wish you all the best on getting it done.

Mark

Thanks Mark, I wasn't plannin for my pantera to be a slouch when I finished it, maybe not as powerful as a GT but hopefully north of 450 HP at the engine. Plus the GT has larger rolling stock over the pantera, which should help to equalize everything, but I haven't run the numbers yet to see how much.

Not sure what I am going to do, will most likely end up sticking with dash-1 ZF and baby it. I'll let everyone know when I figure it all out.

Dave

I ran the tractive effort numbers and I seem to remember that for the same engine the ZF-2 with the 4.22 had around a 17% advantage overall. Of course it varies by the gear. Therefore a stock Ford GT motor with a ZF in a Pantera with 17 inch wheels had around the tractive effort of a Ford GT motor running a 17lb pulley on a 3rd gen whipple supercharger and a Ricardo in a Ford GT.

Hi DeMopuar

Like your project! How is it going with your cat? not see any update for a long time. I’m just now looking for a Ricardo to put in my pantera. Got an offer for a fresh one for 10500 USD. Just bought a Roush Yates D3 Nascar engine that I will put 2 turbo’s on. Do you know of any Ford Gt engine and Ricardo for sale? Here’s a link to my project: http://www.dittnettsted.com/di...&mforum=panteranorge
Maybe it’s cheaper to by a GT engine than to rebuild my Roush Yates.
Do you have some measurement on the Ricardo?

quote:

Do you know of any Ford Gt engine and Ricardo for sale?

X2 Builders specialize in wrecked Ford GT's, a low miles engine and transaxle sells for $25K, they have one listed on Ebay right now.


When searching somethinge else I came across another Ford GT parts specialist that had engines for $14K the other day, but at the time it wasn't important and I cannot find it again now.

Julian

Thank you Julian and Denis for your respond. Find it difficult to find these parts, so any help I can get will be grate

Thanks!

Be4you,

My car is still being done, just at a glacial pace.

When I purchased my GT motor and Ricardo, I bought them new from a distributor of Ford called Diversified Products Marketing, Inc. from Plymouth, MI. I have no idea if they are still around and are able to get these items, but you could try. The phone number when I did this is (734) 459-0130 and I spoke to either Mike or Belinda. I paid $12,300 for a brand new Ricardo in 2005 and the part number is M7003GT. There is a site to check out the size of the transaxle and a newer cost at the following:

Ricardo Transaxle Web Address

As far as the motor goes, it is Ford part number M6007GT. I cannot find it anywhere brand new. That does not mean they are not available yet, but that I cannot find it myself. There are places in the USA that part out Ford GT's, and I know you could get a motor there, try eBay. I have seen packages of motor, computers, and transaxle for USD $25,000 price as well. If the motor and transaxle are good, and the computers are not fried that is a smoking deal. Otherwise, not so much.

Best of luck with whatever you choose to do. Sounds like you will have a really nice car when you get it completed.

Guys have successfully installed twin turbos on their Ford GT's as well. It is not uncommon to run 1,000 horsepower out of these modular 5.4L motors with twin turbos. Check out the Ford GT Forum bulletin board for more information on what is being done to these cars. The crazy thing is, the cars are incredibly streetable as well. 1,000 horsepower and streetable. You can go to the grocery store or pound it on the track with equal enthusiasm. But do not take my word for it, take a look yourself on the Ford GT Forum. Simply amazing.

Best of luck with your project whatever you do.

Mark

quote:

As far as the motor goes, it is Ford part number M6007GT. I cannot find it anywhere brand new. That does not mean they are not available yet, but that I cannot find it myself.

The engines were hand assembled for each GT and I understood only a handful of spares were made, all of which have long since sold. That's not to say someone doesn't have one ore more stored waiting for the right moment, but I suspect any NOS you find would carry a hefty premium.

Looking at the amount of wrecked Ford GT's around they will likley become a rareity in themselves before long.

Julian

Hi Guys

I been i contact with 2 companies that partout GT's but they will only sell complete engine and trany. Another company well sell me a used one for 10500 US. Little expensive I think. If you know of any trany out there please let me know.
What I’m looking for is a Ford GT transaxle (Ricardo) with the oil cooling system, starter, complete gear leaver with wire control (for changing gear)and drive shafts (CV joints)

Thanks!

$10.5K sounds about the going price. There was a company in Rugby, UK selling reconditioned ones for GBP6500, but I could not find the name/address, although I did find this.... truly a bargain if still available.

http://london.craigslist.co.uk/pts/1908894639.html

Julian

If that's not a misprint, that is one hell of a deal.
That's the equivalent of ~$2500.00 USD!
I paid $6500.00+ shipping for a Rugby reconditioned takeout and thought I got a great deal.
BTW I spoke to an engineer at the Rugby plant and was told that the Ricardo trans would handle my 800+HP 572" BBC thru 14" wide race tires racecar project drivetrain no problem.
I wonder what these bulletproof Ricardos will be worth in 10 yrs...

Jack

Jack,

Torrie on the Ford GT Forum has a twin turbo Ford GT that is running 1,000 horsepower. He recently found the weak spot, the CV joint. Totally destroyed the cage of the CV at the transaxle end. Did not wreck anything else, and these were stock CV's as well, and he has run them since new.

I do not think you will have any trouble with your Ricardo with that horsepower or footprint. Something else will fail before that. Best of luck with your project. Let us all know how it turns out.

Mark

If a Ricardo can live behind 1000 HP in a 3500+ lbs. Ford GT thru street tires, you would think it could handle 800HP in a sub-2000 lbs. racecar. But you'd be surprised at the traction of modern race radials and the stress they put on a transaxle on a racetrack.
We had to regularly replace Hewland LG500 transaxle internals(big$) in a 1600 lbs. Lola T163 Can Am racecar powered by a BBChev 510" making about 690 HP/710tq. The traction was so good once tires were warm that you couldn't spin the rears in 2nd thru 4th (note: 1st gear went to about 92mph).
When driving,you got a sense that the entire drivetrain was under great stress, and you just hoped something wouldn't break at speed. That's why I don't race that car anymore.
We'll see how the Ricardo holds up.

Jack

I reread my above post, and feel I should clarify: I sold the T163 after breaking a (virtually new) HP halfshaft and narrowly avoided a bad accident. The old can am cars offered little driver protection due to weight targets when new, and now 40 yrs. later, require constant expensive component replacement(incl. tubs) due to high power and modern race tire grip. Its a very expensive business, and its incredibly easy to get killed or badly injured through no fault of one's own. Someone offered to buy the car right after my accident and I sold it to him right there.

One of my friends still races his Mclaren M12 w/ BBC power, and I passed him at Watkins Glen in a(relatively)low powered sports racer like he was standing still. I spoke to him after the race, and he said he's so worried about breaking halfshafts, etc., that he's afraid to really "get on it". How well I understood! It also explains why you see so many can am cars with small blocks now, even though to many like me, the can ams were all about the big blocks.

Jack

According to Steve Wilkinson, the Ricardo transaxle not only weighs some 50 lbs more than a ZF, it is too wide to fit between Pantera frame rails. The one they managed to install (Ford GT engine & trans in a Pantera) required extensive frame cutting and repositioning of the lower a-arm mountings, which then altered the geometry of the rear suspension.
FWIW, Jr Wilson had no trouble in 10 years of competition with a ZF behind his Silver State racer running a 900 bhp 574-inch Boss 429. But Jr shifts easy; its possible to break anything with shock-loads. Greg Esakoff has broken at least four ZFs (usually, 2nd or 3rd gear) with a 750-bhp stroker in his roadracer 'cause he slam-shifts the poor thing. Same thing goes for u-joints vs. CV joints. CVs are less easy to regularly inspect & grease than u-joints, and do break behind factory Porsche turbos.

Just bought a fresh Ricardo from the UK. Had to pay 6400 USD. Not so bad for a fresh one.

Thanks for all help!

Is there anybody how knows the length on the CV and adapters for the CV joints. Also dim and length on the gear cables and shifter to use, Where to buy?

Thanks

Be4you,

As far as the shifter and shift cables, I am using the stock parts from a 2006 Ford GT.

As far as the CV's and adapters, you are on your own. There is nothing out there to just bolt it up. I am working with Ike installing different billet uprights and his CV axle solution with no adapters. These billet uprights will fit the rest of the stock suspension pieces, but the hub and axle is different, and makes the CV a bolt on piece. If you would like to get in touch with Ike, his email is burrid1@netzero.net . The web link to look at SACO parts is as follows:

SACO Performance

Best of luck,

Mark