Ricardo

Hi Dave,

I am the crazy nut having the Ricardo installed in my car, and to do it in a 351 or even a mod motor car is a challenge. Not that it cannot be done, but it does take some modifications. First off, the most obvious thing is that it is a wide transaxle, and longer than the ZF. Something has to be done to the frame rails so it does not hit them, and there is no kit to make this work. Then there is the issue of the transaxle mounts. It is held in place from above on the original setup, so either something totally new needs to be made up, or use the original setup and make something to fit in the Pantera. I know the bellhousing should fit up to a mod motor, but I do not know how it would work with the special clutch setup in the Ford GT/ Ricardo setup -- you are in unknown waters with that one. Steve Wilkinson would be the best resource for technical questions. He is installing the Ford GT engine and Ricardo into my car, and he is also installing a GT motor and ZF transaxle into another owners car -- so he has been dealing with "issues" longer than likely anyone else.

As far as the linkage goes, these are cable driven as on the Ford GT, and I do not know if you can route them under the intake manifold as on the Ford GT engine -- so placement of the cables may be an issue as well, unless they can be routed in a different area. There is also an issue with the output shafts of the Ricardo. They are very different than the ZF, so there would have to be a custom CV joint and an adapter at the wheel hub end to make it work properly. I am sure that anything can be done, but it is the same old answer -- time and money. I also do not know how the starter would be mounted in your particular instance. This is an issue with the Ricardo setups as well as the starter placement is just plain different -- again, Steve would be a good resource to see if he can help you at all.

I know the reason that I went this route is because of a light clutch feel and butter smooth accurate shifting. Otherwise I would have stayed with the ZF.

Best of luck with whatever you decide to do. But again, there is no one doing kits for this setup, so anything you do in this regard will be trail blazing; and that always means more time and $$$.

Cheers,

Mark

The only person I know who has done/is doing this is Steve Wilkinson - PanterasbyWilkinson.

Give him a call. (562) 634-3434

Larry

Mark,
You're not a nut by any means, the Ricardo has some advantadges over the ZF and it can be rather appealing. So I don't blame you for going that route, and I am quite interested to see your car when it has been completed.

The adapters to the engine and half shafts I'm not terribly concerned with. Niether am I over the mounting of the transaxle. All are time and money but not so much that I would consider them a deal breaker.

Thanks for the info on the shifter cables, I didnt know that they were routed under the intake on the GT. Same goes for the starter.

Do you know how far Steve had to move the frame rails on your car to get the ZF to fit? I am afraid I dont know the Input shaft to output shaft vertical distance on a Ricardo, so I dont really know how "low" the transaxle needs to sit in the car. Hopefully its not so great that a dry sump oiling system is required.

Thanks,
Dave

Hi Dave,

I do not know for sure, but my gut tells me that the dry sump issue is what will determine how it fits in the car; so your inference to the "height" of the engine in regards to the Ricardo is spot on. Steve would be the one to ask about the specific things that were done to my car.

So it seems to me if you are serious about going this route, you will need to know if a 351 or mod motor will be out because of dry sump requirements for the Ricardo -- Steve is your guy for that question. If you would like to PM me and send your e-mail, I would be happy to send you photos of what the Ricardo and GT motor look like in the car. I would have to say that the half shafts do look like they are in the stock location, and this is with the GT dry sump motor. I would be concerned with the height as well .......

Thanks,

Mark

Hello Mark,

Could you post the current pictures of your car in the car photo section? That way all of us could see. Last time I saw your car was the beginning of July with the headers fitted.

Thanks, David

Hi David,

Do you mean on the POCA site or this one?

Thanks,

Mark

Hi Mark,

I guess I was thinking this one, but either would probably do. I uploaded some pictures in bulk to the POCA site and some can't be seen. If I was planning the Ricardo install at other than Steve's shop, I would probably load it and the Pantera frame into a CAD program and play with it.

I think your engine sits lower than mine but I am not sure. Steve did a lot of bracing to my frame. I do know that Steve lowered my ZF about one and a half inches. The Ricardo is huge compared to the ZF.

Thanks, David

I have just posted photos of my car on the POCA site. Just look under the Mark Hoffman album -- you will see what has been done so far to the car to make the Ford GT and Ricardo fit. Long way to go, that's all I am going to say.

Enjoy,

Mark

quote:

you will see what has been done

Thanks Mark.

Nice to finally get a 'feel' for what Steve is doing.

Please post more, and I think there is more going on than just the modular/Ricardo swap, when available.

Larry

Hey Mark! Was that your car I saw when I visited Steve's shop Summer of 2008. Here's a pic. I can't wait to see it when it's finished.

Here's a pic I snapped of the re-engineered chassis.

garth66,

That's my car. I wonder whose car is over mine on the lift? I cannot wait until it is done as well. Steve and Bill are going over the top on this one.

Mark

Here is a link to the POCA site for the photos that I posted of the car with the Ricardo:

POCA Ricardo Photos

Enjoy!

Mark

Well sorry for the delay, but I had a rather interesting week.

Walked into work Monday morning and was told to hop a plane to Socal to visit a vendor, had some extra time so I managed to talk with Steve, in person!

Mark, Steve showed me your car, and its quite true you car has had some very extensive modifications done to fit the ford GT drive train, but it is looking outstanding. However, after talking with Steve I don’t believe a Ricardo behind an older pushrod motor would require anything near that much work.

Due to the Ricardo dimensions, in order to get the half shaft angle acceptable you need to sink the Ricardo down in between the aft frame rails. To fit the Ricardo in between the frame rails you need to increase the distance between them by more than a couple inches from a standard Pantera. So modifications are needed to the back subframe and suspension points are required, but again not as extensive as what was done to Mark's car (back-halfed) in order to fit the complete GT drive train.

I don’t think just going to a CV shaft kit would fix the problem, you will need to do some modification of the aft frame rails. You may be able to get away with just sectioning the rails, but its hard to say. Really just need to get a Ricardo, bolt it up to an engine and start doing check fits to find out I think.

Hopefully that helps other people know what is required for the swap, besides the ambiguous "extensive modifications”.

Dave

I'm kinda at a loss why you'd want to put a Ricardo behind an older pushrod motor and do all that work to make it fit? What's so special about the Ricardo? If you look at the total install costs and figure that into you transaxle budget you can get one hell of a transaxle, even a full sequential for the same investment.

You know Ford's first choice for the new GT was a ZF right? They went with the Ricardo because they took a look at RBT's ability to produce 5,000 odd transaxles and decided they needed another option.

Julian

Hi Dave,

The other thing that you have to be careful about on the Ricardo is the differential final drive ratio. I believe it is 3.31 or something crazy like that. With the power of the GT motor, it is not as big an issue as if you had something that was not as powerful (i.e. 650 HP with 600 ft/pounds of torque). There is a 3.90 final drive ratio offered, but that is quite pricey at $7,000; just for the kit! Most Pantera ZF's have a 4.22 final drive ratio -- so they can really go off the line!

That is the bad news, the good news on why you would want such a thing is that this transaxle has triple synchros on first thru third gears, then it has double on the rest. This means that this transaxle will shift like butter, everytime. There will be no notchy feel, and with the cable shift, it will be spot on until it needs to be adjusted like everything does. I do not know for a fact, but I thought I heard that the ZF was used on the prototype cars and they never intended to use it on the production cars -- they went with Ricardo because of the newer technology, and I am sure, for the production requirements.

Joules, have you ever driven a Ford GT? I have not, just curious if you have any first hand knowledge of what it is like to drive such a thing. I am hoping for a smooth shift and light clutch pedal -- this is what I have read anyway, so we shall see..... I am looking for gas, key, and go. I have enough other cars to work on all of the time.....

Mark

Mark,

Don't get me wrong, I admire what you are doing with the FGT motor and transaxle and follow your updates rigorously. I'm sure you will achieve your goals for a light clutch and smooth shift, but I wonder if you will lose much of the uniqueness that is a Pantera in the first place? As they say we are a diverse group and each to his own.

If money is no object you can achieve whatever your heart desires. But in general the later posts here sounded more like dropping a Ricardo in was driven by the fact a recon transaxle was cheap now and about the same as a ZF. That may be so for a bare Ricardo, but I undertsand the unique starter motor to go with it is $800 alone. With the expense of the mods required for a transaxle swap to a Ricardo there are other equally good options one shoudl be at least considering out there. For example you can get a Gearfox or numerous other equally suitable transaxles that likely won't require such extensive mods to the subframe. Personally at that level of expenditure I'd go fully sequential, but then again if I was spending that sort of money personally I'd have bought the rest of the FGT too.

My personal experience with cable shifters is they are finicky and a PITA. The cables stretch and give a very different feel/feedback when hot and cold. Ford seem to have the best I've come across, but will all that transcend across to the Pantera?

FWIW I'm currently looking at the Mastershift system, that converts a ZF or any cable shift to a semi sequential. You can have a conventioanl bump gear selector or a paddle shifter.


http://mastershift.com/new-str...manual.html#proddesc


Cheers,
Julian

Julian,

Yes, it would have been a lot cheaper to purchase a Ford GT, no question about it. They are wonderful cars mechanically and a feast for the eyes. I have always been a hot rodder at heart, so when I learned that there is a group of people that modify their cars in the mechanical and body areas, well, I was hooked. Ford GT guys modify their cars too, but it is not the same, if you know what I mean. Very rarely will they modify the body, so mechanical stuff gets modified, if anything.

Anyway, I know I am getting long winded with this, but I think the golden era of cars stopped in the mid to late 70's. The Pantera has such a wonderful story, and in Group 4 form it is very hard to say it is an ugly car -- I know there will be some, but they will be in the minority. Couple that with the ultimate factory Ford motor of the modern era and now you will have combined a gorgeous body with a reliable, refined mechanical system and now you have something that, in my mind, is worth more than a Ford GT. I know this will not be the case for most people, but then again, I am not most people. I put value on a well executed resto mod where others outside this forum will always poo poo any modifications from stock.

I just hope that the modification work out as well as I hope, and any snafus will be corrected and I have something that drives comparably to a Ford GT, or better.

Mark

Well since I started this post I might as well state all the reasons why I find the Ricardo an attractive option.

First, my car has dash 1 ZF which is currently getting rebuilt. About 50% of the people I talk to tell me to junk it, and the other 50% tell me there are no problems with using it. So thats kinda what prompted the search.

Ricardo seems to be a pretty stout transmission, and I have been told they shift nicely even though I have never driven a GT so its all second hand accounts. The Ricardo price has dropped to about on par with the ZF, and is still cheaper than other transaxle options like the ZFQ (as stated though modifications will raise the overall price). Plus these are running around in the GT's, thier reliability is pretty well documented.

Basically, if I've got about 50% of the people I talk too (Vendors etc) telling me the that a -1 is not worth it for street use, I'm going to look at other options (Ricardo and others) before spending a ton of cash for a -2.

Dave