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My  view was over time the chassis does flex as pointed out by Bosswrench. The Sway bay keeps its shape but the mounting brackets wear and distort to suit the new rest state of the car.

You pull the whole mess apart- there is no apparent spring in the sway bar . You install new bushes and hardware that have tight original tolerances  and it becomes very apparent how much the chassis has moved.

We are not talking allot here - perhaps a few mm each side , but it is enough to make fitting the bar back into the new no wear clearance supports a challenge when the A arm fixing points are all captive threads. Using  clamps to pull the sway bar back into the rear mounts is very controlled and avoids overstressing all the captive bolts and nuts.

The  clamps are very limited in the force they can apply - nothing like the huge forces generated during exuberant cornering. Any residual force in the sway bar after installation  would be insignificant compared to this.

IMHO.

Thanks for the great discussion.
I'm going to try to find someone with press and will coerce it until it fits nicely. The spherical mounts make a lot of sense too. I do have an adjustable upper brace (from IPSCO) that has been on for a few months. I set it up with just a very slight amount of outward pressure but haven't touched it since.

@bosswrench posted:

Thanks for the backup, Percy. Although I don't quite agree with the late Carroll Smith (crew chief on the winning GT-40 team) who when asked by Ford for his rating on the Pantera as a race car, stated "..It is hopeless. The rear suspension is fastened to nothing at all"... It's a bit flexy but not THAT bad.

The first time I saw a '40 suspension I was shocked and concerned. It's made of 1" square tubing  like the shade tent in my backyard from Viet Nam is.

I always thought that Smith was referring to the lack of "race" access to service a Pantera race car at the International GT level? That I would agree with in spades.

There are "signs" that there was considerable internal conflicts between Ford and Detomaso which shows, culminates, with buying, then shutting down Vignale and walking away from Detomaso as a retaliation? Smith's negative is an outlying symptom.



As far as the rear mounting goes, I have only two broken studs replaced right now (with BW's description 'cause that's how you do it) but am considering going all out and replacing them all now.

Considering my rear bar is upgraded in size, it can't reduce the stress on the studs, now I'm concerned what could happen if the studs break under hard load driving conditions or EVEN just cruising?

My "time" is normally now 3am. I just wake up sometimes in a cold sweat and start listing all of these "concerns" and don't get back to the "Playmate of the Year" until about 4am. Then she's not interested. Floated away actually. Figures?    

I need to organize my priorities better.

Last edited by panteradoug

Thanks BW and PanteraDoug. I have carefully been ignoring any squeeking pleas from my rear sway Bar , cross member and the even crosser non adjustable upper brace-bar.

As my rear cross member looks like it was already pounded by the Kiwi artillery at Long Tan, I am seriously looking  at cutting it out and replacing it . It is pretty well stuffed .

I have seen some posts on  the rear cross member replacement process but are there recommendations specifically on the replacement and securing of recommended stud types as part of this process ?

Is there a consensus on the best adjustable upper brace bar cross member ? Before I buy four of them - all wrong ?????

Percy, as I remember it, the rear crossmember is made of several pieces of sheet metal somehow welded together. Any squeeking may be bushings, or maybe the crossmember parts moving!  Certainly a one-piece crossmember would be better. In a test done in the last century, we laid out a skid pad circle, then ran our Pantera with several swaybar sizes, all with rubber bar ends. Stock, then GTS, then 1" solid. The worst was the stock, the GTS was noticably better and the 1" aftermarket bar was similar to the stock bar! Tried the 1" bar on a GT-5 with 13" wide rear tires and got the same results. We finally decided the 1" solid bar was stiffer than the rear crossmembers, so the whole rear end was flexing during heavy cornering with that bar! Decades later, I found this was not so when using a slightly weaker hollow 1" bar.

Using rubber on the bar ends causes severe distortion of the rubber and subtracts from whatever benefits the swaybar provides. Using much stiiffer poly bushings on swaybar ends often causes the steel mount on the a-arm to flex, then crack due to lack of poly-compliance. Thats why the sphere-ball ends are such a good idea. I use them on both front and back, on the bar ends. I use poly in the middle where they act simply as slightly compliant pivot bushings.

As for the upper bay-brace, in my opinion the Hall straight adjustable bar in black steel with long ends is best at bracing if not as pretty as others. The u-shaped bracket the bar fastens to is actually a weldment, part of  the rear shock top, so a bar that has an end which protrudes far into the bracket will transfer cornering loads best. When a bar like that is inserted, the small bolts only keep it in position and the bar itself takes & transfers cornering loads to the shock, upper a-arm & rear upright. As-stock, the weldment tabs flex and with monstrously oversized stock bolt-holes, the bolts move around as well. You can see this from paint worn away around the stock bolt & nut.

I found that this type of adjustable bar can not only brace best, it can actually compensate for a rear suspension that's "settled" into excess camber! The key seems to be to NOT attempt to preload it enough to take out ALL SUBFRAME DISTORTION AT ONCE! Impatiently doing this can warp the rear body panels. My 'method' is to preload the adjustment only a little and drive the car a dozen miles or so, let it relax, then add a bit more preload the next day and drive it some more.

Continue this over a week or so until the rear wheel alignment is in the stock range, then periodically check rear camber for further distortion. Slow adjustment allows the rear alignment to be 'teased' back into good working order without bad effects. Our car had popped spot-welds and excess camber in 1998. I teased it back into zero camber over a week or so. Since then, it has not moved much. It won't perform miracles but can readjust for some settling.

...I have to say it! Rene, YOU are Serious about 'Frame Stiffness'-Triangulation!! You did not say if you plan to 'Race', or all this bracing is for 'the Street'. My point being...did you keep track of the Weight of Steel you added to the Rear, Entirety, of your Pantera? Looks as if it could be over 200 pounds, perhaps, closer to 300*, added to the rear. IMO this does not 'Improve' very well, towards  the cornering/handling response. NOT trying to piss anybody off...just bringing this to the equation.

* That's equivalent to having TWO People, Permanently laying in the Engine Bay!

Great Work, though!

MJ

P.S. ...Quote: Ferruccio Lamborghini..."Weight is the Enemy!". Although I HAVE added vendor sold cross-members, I am constantly 'weight-stripping' My Pantera. I have Her down to around 2700 Pounds or even less. Started 21 Years ago...exchanging the 20 Pound Cast-Iron Waterpump, for a  8 Pound Aluminum. Good-Luck getting Your Pantera back on the Road!! Your in for a Lot of Fun!

Last edited by marlinjack

The so-called double brace is likely more effective than the stock one but the upper bar still attaches and transmits loads only thru stock sheet metal tabs & bolts. All are hand-made and the engineering problem I see is, the lower brackets attach to a compound-curved surface on the face of sheet metal inner rear fenders. Because the brackets only attach to sheet metal, at least 1/4" thick steel is normally used for stiffness. Forming such thick steel to a compound curve so it can be properly welded or brazed to the fender panels is a lot of metal pounding, and preload adjustments with 4 heim joints are more complicated.

Thee was a third type produced in very small numbers for awhile, consisting of two 3" or 4" thick shaped triangular carbon-fiber parts that completely filled the area between the two inner fender panels, from the upper tabs all the way down to the subframe rails. There was a threaded clevis between the two shaped parts. Rather elaborate and showy- I don't remember now who built them- but no tech article was done and I never heard anything about how well it worked. There are a few photos in the POCA Archives somewhere.

I did not model anything, I am too old for that, and therefore totally intuitive according to what I learned 50 years ago on the decomposition and the transmission of the constraints.

This is for street use, but when I saw the cracks including in the pewter trim in the corners of the engine compartment opening, near the lights, I thought it was all there openness that needed to be strengthened.
200 or 300 pounds ...... I think there is one zero too many; i'm not at home but I will weigh the top brace which is taken apart when I get home, I think it weighs less than 10kg, these are just tubes. The rear cross member is a bit heavier, but it is located very low and that lowers the center of gravity.

I like light cars a lot, I have a 1996 TVR Griffith 500 (1050 kg and 300 HP) and a Westfield replica of Lotus Seven (Collin Chapman said "light is right")  (620kg and 190 HP), but they don't have a big all-cast American V8. Just by replacing the original cast iron intake manifold with an aluminum Blue Thunder and the cast iron water pump with an aluminum one, I had to compensate for the weight of the reinforcements.

The anchor points welded to the thin sheet are positioned exactly opposite the reinforcing "side members" located in the wheel arches on the other side of the sheet, the forces will therefore be transmitted to the structure and obviously not to simple plate sheets that have no resistance.

Last edited by rene4406

I came back home and weighed the top triple reinforcement: 6kg
So even though the bottom taverse is twice as heavy, that's 40 pounds in total.

Edit: I estimated the weight of the bottom rail from the dimensions of the different pieces of steel used and it is around 9kg, owe around 30 pounds for the total of the top brace and bottom rail

Last edited by rene4406

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