is the restrictor plate in place, in the block under the T-stat?
.
Get it from MarlinJack here. He has the right one and has the brass plate if you need one. Even if you don't get one as a spare. They are not expensive.
Airmail to the UK and the GB customs is fast.
Why mess around with the locals who do not know what you are talking about.
The Cleveland thermostat has become difficult to get.
It gets crossed over in the listings to the Windsor unit (the one on the left in the picture) which is the wrong one.
Switching the thermostat system in the Pantera plays havoc with everything. You do not want to or need to reinvent the wheel.
Pishadeperro this is MarlinJack. There. Now you are introduced.
Airmail to the UK and the GB customs is fast.
Why mess around with the locals who do not know what you are talking about.
The Cleveland thermostat has become difficult to get.
It gets crossed over in the listings to the Windsor unit (the one on the left in the picture) which is the wrong one.
Switching the thermostat system in the Pantera plays havoc with everything. You do not want to or need to reinvent the wheel.
Pishadeperro this is MarlinJack. There. Now you are introduced.
I hear you...but I've just been to the number one guy in the UK and bought a replacement.
Once fitted the temp was off the gauge in 3 mins....no heat in the radiator or front pipes...water in the header tank still cold..but engine steaming....as a process of elimination shall I remove the stat completley..I think it maybe the pump though as it ran with this type of stat in when the appraiser drove it in StLouise...if it was stuck I'd understand it but it must have worked for him...
Once fitted the temp was off the gauge in 3 mins....no heat in the radiator or front pipes...water in the header tank still cold..but engine steaming....as a process of elimination shall I remove the stat completley..I think it maybe the pump though as it ran with this type of stat in when the appraiser drove it in StLouise...if it was stuck I'd understand it but it must have worked for him...
But I'd still like to buy another...can I pay you with PayPal?
quote:Originally posted by 4V & Proud:
is the restrictor plate in place, in the block under the T-stat?
.
???
Yes I think so...but back to my original comment...the car was driven some distance by the appraiser before it left the U.S...this would not have been possible if the stat was wrong as the engine would have let go after a short time as it gets too hot after. 3 mins sat in my garage...I can remove the stat completly to eliminate this but think there is another issue
quote:Originally posted by Pishadeperro:
...I can remove the stat completly to eliminate this ...
I just wanted to verify, you are saying you removed the stat and the engine would run/drive around without over heating?
Couldn't you verify the stats were opening with a pot of boiling water?
Yes..I removed the stat and put it in boiling water to check it worked fine...I have now fitted another new stat which is the correct type.....I was thinking about removing the stat completley to eliminate that part of the system as everyone has a different opinion on what type to use.....but I'm convinced is not the stat...it's not air locked either as I've bled the system
is that "YES", I can drive the car without the stat and not overheating?
if the wrong stat is used, I was thinking that a percent of the coolant flow was just circulated from the pump, through the block/heads and back to the pump due to the hole in the resector plate. and not going to the radiator.
thus without a stat, the same would happen unless the hole in the restrictor plate was pluged (or the pump not drilled for bypass)
with out the stat, could you notice flow in the swirl tank, increasing with rpms?
if the wrong stat is used, I was thinking that a percent of the coolant flow was just circulated from the pump, through the block/heads and back to the pump due to the hole in the resector plate. and not going to the radiator.
thus without a stat, the same would happen unless the hole in the restrictor plate was pluged (or the pump not drilled for bypass)
with out the stat, could you notice flow in the swirl tank, increasing with rpms?
I am now total lost!!!
Sometimes the first thing to determine is not the most obvious.
Something wacky appears to be going on here.
The forum wisdom has determined your Pantera had the incorrect thermostat installed. You now say you have the correct one from the "number one guy". ARE YOU SURE?
Even with our photos of the correct style thermostat, you seemed to not grasp the difference.
Can you please post a photo of the one you sourced in UK?
For now (until we see a photo), let's assume it IS the correct style, let's move on.
And actually, even it is is the wrong one, the pipes and radiator should be getting warm.
Which leads me to this train of thought.
The problem is believed to be poor circulation of coolant.
What circulates coolant? The water pump.
SOOOO.....
Have you confirmed there is a fan belt turning the water pump? A bad belt means no circulation.
If confirmed, you next need to confirm the water pump is freely rotating.
I've had just one frozen water pump experience, but it can happen.
Just saying........
Larry
Something wacky appears to be going on here.
The forum wisdom has determined your Pantera had the incorrect thermostat installed. You now say you have the correct one from the "number one guy". ARE YOU SURE?
Even with our photos of the correct style thermostat, you seemed to not grasp the difference.
Can you please post a photo of the one you sourced in UK?
For now (until we see a photo), let's assume it IS the correct style, let's move on.
And actually, even it is is the wrong one, the pipes and radiator should be getting warm.
Which leads me to this train of thought.
The problem is believed to be poor circulation of coolant.
What circulates coolant? The water pump.
SOOOO.....
Have you confirmed there is a fan belt turning the water pump? A bad belt means no circulation.
If confirmed, you next need to confirm the water pump is freely rotating.
I've had just one frozen water pump experience, but it can happen.
Just saying........
Larry
Larry....This sounds more likely....I will check the belts as even with my extreamly limited knowledge it points to the pump as the water is not movings at all....
If the thermostat is the wrong one (Windsor thermostat) then it's missing the little hat that needs to seat against the block plate and water will not be forced to go to the radiator. Therefore, your radiator will not get hot. The same thing will happen if you try to run without a thermostat at all.
Share a pic of your thermostat, or a part name/number at the very least.
Share a pic of your thermostat, or a part name/number at the very least.
One worry though...if it is the pump...how do I change it?
As in how do you access it? Access to the front of the engine is through the rear bulkhead in the passenger compartment. Once the bulkhead cover is removed there is a metal "bubble" that needs to be removed also. This will uncover the front of the engine. There is a fairly simple modification you can do to the bulkhead cover which would allow the removal of the bubble without removing the entire bulkhead cover.
I'm betting the belt has broken or jumped the pully .. any takers? :-)
Here's some more info on the correct thermostat.
http://www.banzairunnerpantera...dates_thermostat.htm
Also, here's thread with pics of how you access the water pump from the interior.
http://www.banzairunnerpantera...tes_distrinstall.htm
http://www.banzairunnerpantera...dates_thermostat.htm
Also, here's thread with pics of how you access the water pump from the interior.
http://www.banzairunnerpantera...tes_distrinstall.htm
quote:Originally posted by Robbie:
I'm betting the belt has broken or jumped the pully .. any takers? :-)
Having a warning light to let you know the pump is not pumpng seems like it would be nice to have?
quote:Having a warning light to let you know the pump is not pumpng seems like it would be nice to have?
That's what the temp gauge is for. If its hot something is wrong. Best not to over complicate the issue.
quote:Originally posted by ItalFord:quote:Having a warning light to let you know the pump is not pumpng seems like it would be nice to have?
That's what the temp gauge is for. If its hot something is wrong. Best not to over complicate the issue.
In this situation with a novice mechanic, verify that the gauge is actually what the temp is.
Verify that the cap is actually sealing and holding pressure. If it isn't the system WILL "boil over" at about 215F.
Do you even know how to do that? You MUST pressure test the CAP and the entire system. You NEED the pressure test kit in order to do that.
Just because you may have changed the cap doesn't mean 1) it is the correct one 2) it is actually sealing against it's seat on the tank. The Pantera takes a european stile long cap.
A 18 year old selling you parts out of a book is not going to pick up on that. The cap is not necessarily a universal cap. Many US caps will not seal against the seat in the pressure tank.
The Pantera pressure tank is special and unique to the car. It is in no way universal to anything. Don't look at me like I have four eyes if you don't know what I am talking about?
This is not a big learning curve but you are not going to learn it any other place but here.
On the pump, first you need to verify that the belt is connected and tight but actually even before that you need to verify that the water pump pulley is bolted to the pump drive flange?
There are too many paramaters here that you are looking at and have no idea what you are looking at.
The engine just didn't just self destruct itself out of now where. There is something unusual but still strange that you are looking right at but are not seeing.
Removed the bulkhead and got to the front of the engine...all belts are tight and pulley's are turning...think I may have the added problem of a faulty gauge because on start up it went straight to 160 degrees...reaching about 220, it boiled over within 2 mins of ticking over..
quote:Originally posted by Pishadeperro:
.. it boiled over within 2 mins of ticking over..
What are you seeing when you say "boiled over"?
are the caps on both coolant tanks when you observe boil over?
how full are both tanks with the engine cold?
when it boiled over, were the pipes at the radiator still cold? how about the swirl tank, was it still cold?
No heat in the rad or front pipes...swirl tank is still cold but expansion tank is hot...could it be a badly fitted cap and a dodgy temp gauge...is there a way of testing the temp gauge?
a dogy temp gauge is possible. DO you know where your temp sender is located. there are at least three possible locations. the original location is the Supply (swirl) tank. the better location is just below the stat and some have used the water pump aux return plug. using a test thermometer is the best way to determine the actual temp to compare to the gauge. A lot have purchased those non contact IR guns
the illustration below is the original, the arrangement can be modified though. is your expansion tank hose arrangement like shown? or is there a third lower hose back to the water pump.
what type of caps do you have on the tanks. the cap on the supply (swirl) should be the pressure cap, but the cap on the expansion (recovery) is just a cover so it allows overflow to dump to ground
why are you saying "boiled over"?
the illustration below is the original, the arrangement can be modified though. is your expansion tank hose arrangement like shown? or is there a third lower hose back to the water pump.
what type of caps do you have on the tanks. the cap on the supply (swirl) should be the pressure cap, but the cap on the expansion (recovery) is just a cover so it allows overflow to dump to ground
why are you saying "boiled over"?
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Sure. Get a IR temp gun. Should be readily available. The temp sensor for the gauge should be mounted in the front of the block below the thermostat, NOT in the stock location in the tank.
First check you water pump is spinning.
It seems hard to believe the Expansion Tank (long, taller tank) is hot, and the swirl tank is not (shorter tank with two big hoses coming in and out) is not. Both tanks (if stock) have pressure caps on them.
Rocky
It seems hard to believe the Expansion Tank (long, taller tank) is hot, and the swirl tank is not (shorter tank with two big hoses coming in and out) is not. Both tanks (if stock) have pressure caps on them.
Rocky
quote:Originally posted by Rocky:
Both tanks (if stock) have pressure caps on them.
Rocky
The expansion tank should have a non-pressurized cap if you have the stock cooling system. See this thread.
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...0045562/m/9961098456
Rocky[/QUOTE]
The expansion tank should have a non-pressurized cap
Thats wrong, the Expension tank must have a pressurized cap, the overflow a non pressurized cap.
Simon
The expansion tank should have a non-pressurized cap
Thats wrong, the Expension tank must have a pressurized cap, the overflow a non pressurized cap.
Simon
quote:Rocky
The expansion tank should have a non-pressurized cap
Thats wrong, the Expension tank must have a pressurized cap, the overflow a non pressurized cap.
Simon[/quote]
Sorry Simon, Rocky is correct.
The two tanks are FOREVER being mis-named by owners. It makes these types of discussions very difficult and confusing when the same tank is called a different name by different people.
Please refer to the diagram posted in this thread by JFB.
The tall tank, the one that has the overflow hose that drains to the ground, does NOT use a pressured cap.
The shorter tank, the one that has the large diameter hoses at top and bottom, DOES need a pressure cap.
Larry
You want a full cooling system. You want it full when cold. You want it air tight. As the engine warms up, the coolant heats and expands in volume. That heated, and expanded in volume, coolant needs to go somewhere. The expansion tank is so named as it is the reservoir for the heat-expanded volume of coolant that is created once the engine is up to operating temperature.
It collects the coolant and holds it until engine shut off. As the engine cools, the coolant volume in the system shrinks, creates a vacuum and the coolant collected in the expansion tank is drawn back into the cooling system.
Then the pattern repeats itself.
Larry
It collects the coolant and holds it until engine shut off. As the engine cools, the coolant volume in the system shrinks, creates a vacuum and the coolant collected in the expansion tank is drawn back into the cooling system.
Then the pattern repeats itself.
Larry
quote:Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:quote:Rocky
The expansion tank should have a non-pressurized cap
Thats wrong, the Expension tank must have a pressurized cap, the overflow a non pressurized cap.
Simon
Sorry Simon, Rocky is correct.
The two tanks are FOREVER being mis-named by owners. It makes these types of discussions very difficult and confusing when the same tank is called a different name by different people.
Please refer to the diagram posted in this thread by JFB.
The tall tank, the one that has the overflow hose that drains to the ground, does NOT use a pressured cap.
The shorter tank, the one that has the large diameter hoses at top and bottom, DOES need a pressure cap.
Larry[/QUOTE]
Larry
thats exactly what I say ,the first tank is the pressure tank, the other tank the overflow tank whitout pressure cap.
sometimes I have seen that both tanks have the same lenght , only the hose's are different.
Simon
I agree I mis-spoke. My stock system had just a twist on cap on the tall expansion tank.
I typed too fast, and didn't remember hard enough. Sorry.
Rocky.
I typed too fast, and didn't remember hard enough. Sorry.
Rocky.
quote:Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:
You want a full cooling system. You want it full when cold. You want it air tight. As the engine warms up, the coolant heats and expands in volume. That heated, and expanded in volume, coolant needs to go somewhere. The expansion tank is so named as it is the reservoir for the heat-expanded volume of coolant that is created once the engine is up to operating temperature.
It collects the coolant and holds it until engine shut off. As the engine cools, the coolant volume in the system shrinks, creates a vacuum and the coolant collected in the expansion tank is drawn back into the cooling system.
Then the pattern repeats itself.
Larry
This is correct, theoretically. In practice you will find that after at least one complete heat/ cool cycle, there will be about 3 inches of air space in the pressure tank.
That is where the system adjusts itself and will maintain that level for normal operating.
And we once again demonstrate the problems in naming these tanks.
PLEASE:
Refer to the nice, colorful diagram posted earlier in this thread. The tank names listed are the most common names used for these tanks.
Simon previously said - "the Expension tank must have a pressurized cap"
Which I said is wrong. Because it is wrong.
Then Simon wrote -
So Simon, in just this thread, has called the short tank -
expansion tank
pressure tank
first tank
No wonder it is so hard to understand our cooling systems and how they work.
While some cars may now have two tanks of the same size, from the factory there was the shorter
PRESURE tank and the taller EXPANSION tank.
In any case, we still haven't solved this overheating problem.
Our UK owner - do you have a name?? - said it "boils over".
We need to better understand what that means. Water coming out? If so, where? Boiling noises? If so, from where?
He said the belts are tight and pulleys are turning. Was this observed with the engine running? Or a static test? Have you removed the water pump belt and rotated the pump by hand?
Have the under car pipes been inspected for damage, that is, crushed somehow?
There is still something wacky here.
I have heard of the pump's internal impeller loosening from the pulley shaft, so while it turns on the outside pulley, the impeller isn't turning. A long shot, but all needs to be considered.
Please, dear UK friend, more specific details. The more the better. Troubleshooting from across The Pond needs all the descriptive text possible.
Larry
PLEASE:
Refer to the nice, colorful diagram posted earlier in this thread. The tank names listed are the most common names used for these tanks.
Simon previously said - "the Expension tank must have a pressurized cap"
Which I said is wrong. Because it is wrong.
Then Simon wrote -
quote:Larry
thats exactly what I say ,the first tank is the pressure tank
So Simon, in just this thread, has called the short tank -
expansion tank
pressure tank
first tank
No wonder it is so hard to understand our cooling systems and how they work.
While some cars may now have two tanks of the same size, from the factory there was the shorter
PRESURE tank and the taller EXPANSION tank.
In any case, we still haven't solved this overheating problem.
Our UK owner - do you have a name?? - said it "boils over".
We need to better understand what that means. Water coming out? If so, where? Boiling noises? If so, from where?
He said the belts are tight and pulleys are turning. Was this observed with the engine running? Or a static test? Have you removed the water pump belt and rotated the pump by hand?
Have the under car pipes been inspected for damage, that is, crushed somehow?
There is still something wacky here.
I have heard of the pump's internal impeller loosening from the pulley shaft, so while it turns on the outside pulley, the impeller isn't turning. A long shot, but all needs to be considered.
Please, dear UK friend, more specific details. The more the better. Troubleshooting from across The Pond needs all the descriptive text possible.
Larry
quote:I agree I mis-spoke. My stock system had just a twist on cap on the tall expansion tank.
Rocky, that is correct and as it should be.
Is everyone now totally confused?
Larry
Ok...It's been a least two hours since I switched it of...I've just turn the ignition on and the temp gauge went straight to 200 degrees...The block is still slightly warm but not 200 degrees....I've ordered a IR temp gun but that'll take a couple of days to come...if the header tank cap was badly fitted would that let steam out...what I'm thinking is that with a faulty 200degree reading and steam coming out of the tank...maybe the car is not reaching temp? That's why the rad is Luke warm and no fans are cutting in...and by the way my name is Dean ( not knob of dog in spanish)
quote:This is correct, theoretically. In practice you will find that after at least one complete heat/ cool cycle, there will be about 3 inches of air space in the pressure tank.
That is where the system adjusts itself and will maintain that level for normal operating.
I have no reason to doubt that is your experience.
However, my experience with 2511 leaves a totally full pressure tank when everything has cooled down.
2511 has a stock system, Weiand water pump, blocked-off restrictor plate and a high flow Windsor style thermostat, with the top of the radiator bleed hose running back to the pressure tank, as per TSB #8, article 61.
Larry
quote:steam coming out of the tank
Makes me think the pump is working. If no water was moving, don't think the pressure tank would see that kind of heat.
Makes me, again, question if the under car pipes have been inspected?
A visual inspection of ALL the cooling system is something that needs to be completed. Try to look inside the pressure tank, too.
Larry
quote:he temp gauge went straight to 200 degrees...The block is still slightly warm but not 200 degrees
Dean,
have you confirmed the temp sensor is located in the block? The stock location was - incorrectly - in the pressure tank.
Most have now been moved to the front of the block, but some may still be in that tank, which works fine until the water level falls below the sensor, gives a false air temp reading and allows your engine to self-destruct with no water.
Larry
To eliminate the thermostat once. And for all. What'd happen if I just removed it....