Some good...some bad! It passed the MoT test ... But it over heated on the way home.

quote:

To eliminate the thermostat once. And for all. What'd happen if I just removed it....

No water would be forced to go through the radiator and your engine would overheat miserably! You need the correct thermostat with the hat to seal against the block plate in order for the water pump to develop sufficient line pressure to force the coolant all the way up to the radiator and back.

quote:

To eliminate the thermostat once. And for all. What'd happen if I just removed it....

Since you said you have tested the thermostat and confirmed it is opening, I can see no manner by which it would be causing your problem. You can better use your time.

Put your car up on jack stands, slide underneath and do an inspection.

We are either missing something very obvious that hasn't been conveyed to us, or there is something out-of-the-box going on here.

Troubleshooting goes by steps. First step, confirm system is as designed and not damaged.

Larry

quote:

have you confirmed the temp sensor is located in the block? The stock location was - incorrectly - in the pressure tank.

Hi Dean,

Here's where the temp sender SHOULD be located or moved to, in the block directly beneath the thermostat and right above the water pump (half visible in this picture with the red wire and blue connector). There's a 1/2" pipe plug there already, so on my car it was merely a matter of moving the pipe plug to the water pump and moving the temp sender to the block.

to see if the pump is pumping, how about a section of clear 5/8" hose to bypass the heater core and there would be flow there even with stat closed (and radiator/piping plugged)

is there a thought some one could have dropped a small ball in the pressure (swirl) tank and it is now lodged in the tubes?

quote:

Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:
And we once again demonstrate the problems in naming these tanks.

PLEASE:

Refer to the nice, colorful diagram posted earlier in this thread. The tank names listed are the most common names used for these tanks.

Simon previously said - "the Expension tank must have a pressurized cap"

Which I said is wrong. Because it is wrong.

Then Simon wrote -

quote:

Larry
thats exactly what I say ,the first tank is the pressure tank

So Simon, in just this thread, has called the short tank -

expansion tank
pressure tank
first tank

No wonder it is so hard to understand our cooling systems and how they work.

While some cars may now have two tanks of the same size, from the factory there was the shorter
PRESURE tank and the taller EXPANSION tank.

In any case, we still haven't solved this overheating problem.

Our UK owner - do you have a name?? - said it "boils over".

We need to better understand what that means. Water coming out? If so, where? Boiling noises? If so, from where?

He said the belts are tight and pulleys are turning. Was this observed with the engine running? Or a static test? Have you removed the water pump belt and rotated the pump by hand?

Have the under car pipes been inspected for damage, that is, crushed somehow?

There is still something wacky here.

I have heard of the pump's internal impeller loosening from the pulley shaft, so while it turns on the outside pulley, the impeller isn't turning. A long shot, but all needs to be considered.

Please, dear UK friend, more specific details. The more the better. Troubleshooting from across The Pond needs all the descriptive text possible.

Larry

I think the tanks should have numbers instead of names. I vote for 2 and 7.I like those numbers.

Your engine won't operate at the correct design temperature. The system requires a thermostat, or more exactly, the correct thermostat.

Thanks everyone for your continued support...tomorrow I will go through all the sent links to repair or eliminate the suggestions and post my findings in detail...

quote:

Originally posted by Pishadeperro:
To eliminate the thermostat once. And for all. What'd happen if I just removed it....

if you operate a factory system with a functioning internal bypass w/o the T-stat, Hot coolant will recirculate through the engine block and never get sent to the radiator or any of the tanks for that matter... if the water pump is moving coolant at all

the T-stat acts as a switch that controls the internal bypass or warm-up circuit

when the T-stat reaches temp & opens, the warm-up circuit gets shut off & all coolant gets sent to the radiator. or a tank somewhere

here's how it works http://www.are.com.au/feat/techt/thermostat.htm

quote:

when the T-stat reaches temp & opens, the warm-up circuit gets shut off & all coolant gets sent to the radiator. or a tank somewhere

Actually, the hat on a Cleveland thermostat does not totally seal the bypass plate. There is, even at full operating temperature, a certain amount of coolant that remains bypassing within the engine block. The Cleveland bypass is internal, but other small block Ford's have an external rubber hose bypass that constantly allows a set amount of coolant to bypass being sent to the radiator.

Larry

Note the small ninety degree hose in this photo.

I'm waving the white flag.....I'm going to paint it black and put it in a dark corner of the garage and never mention it again......I admit defeat and will endeavour to find someone who knows better as I dare not run it again for risk of doing more damage...I'm sure the temp gauge is bust though as I started it this evening it and it shot immediatley to 200 degrees again, the sensor is on the expansion tank and that was cool to the touch, within 3-4. Mins of the engine ticking over it rose agin to the max about 230 degree, the engine by then smelled hot and I could hear hissing...so enough is enough...
I will however test it again once the IR temp gun arrives....I'll keep everyone posted!

Dean

I'll give you ten k and a season ticket to Elland road for it Dean

Just a thought mate, you have turned the fans yeah?

don't surrender, just retreat till enforcements arrive (the temp gun).
I'm thinking it is a faulty temp sender/gauge and an overfilled expansion (recover) tank

while you are waiting, have you considered getting a $25 "parts store" gauge/sender and installing this one in the block. I would verify it too with a pot of boiling water

Sounds to me like air pockets in the heads. My car would do what yours is doing or something very similar. See this thread Filling a completely dry system

Steve

T.Solo,
in your post about filling a coolant system, in the photo of the water pump, are you using duel temp senders? one under the stat and the other in the pump suction, thus looking at block outlet and inlet temp?

The sensor in the water pump is for my EFI ECU.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Tomato Panscourer:
I'll give you ten k and a season ticket to Elland road for it Dean

Do I have to have the season ticket?

I have taken the liberty to review the posts and have made an outline of what I thought were just the facts;

quote:

Originally posted by Pishadeperro:
1 Drove it for the first time today...it over heated ....there is water in the first header tank and the pipes are hot but the pipe work to the rad and the rad itself are clad cold...
2 water in the lower tank but I can't see the upper tank...the pipes going towards the front of the car are hot..but the ones returning to the radiator are cold....Coolant is not leaking anywhere
3 taken the thermostat out....it opens and close's fine....PHOTO NOT CORRECT ONE
4 bought a replacement… temp was off the gauge in 3 mins....no heat in the radiator or front pipes...water in the header tank still cold..but engine steaming
5 it's not air locked as I've bled the system
6 all belts are tight and pulley's are turning...on start up (gauge) went straight to 160 degrees...reaching about 220, it boiled over within 2 mins of ticking over.
7 No heat in the rad or front pipes...swirl tank is still cold but expansion tank is hot
8 least two hours since I switched it off... the temp gauge went straight to 200 degrees... steam coming out of the tank
9 (gauge) shot immediatley to 200 degrees… the sensor is on the expansion tank and that was cool to the touch, within 3-4. Mins of the engine ticking over it rose to 230 degree, the engine by then smelled hot and I could hear hissing.

Yup...that about sums it up......break down truck coming tomorrow and car been sent away to think about what it's done and won't be back until it's changed it's attitude and apologized to all concerned.....meanwhile does anyone one have a Yaris for sale!

Dean xxxx

Dean,

Did the car previously run cool without overheating? Is this new behavior? And, is this a newly rebuilt engine? If recently rebuilt, and that's when you started experiencing the overheating issue, I would check that the head gaskets were not installed backwards. Depending on the gaskets used, you may be able to tell by the location of the tabs that stick out from the head, if any. You'll need to check with the gasket manufacturer.

This may be a silly suggestion, but I've seen new waterpumps in which the impeller came loose from the shaft. No external indications except that no matter what, the engine overheated. And one was a $250 pump, not an E-Bay cheapie.

quote:

Originally posted by Bosswrench:

... I've seen new waterpumps in which the impeller came loose from the shaft ...

That happened to one of my cars. The coolant pump shaft seal was leaking, so I installed a new pump which I had purchased from NAPA, afterwards the engine had an overheating problem which it didn't have previously.

the description of the OP's problem does suggest a water pump remove & inspect

at the top of the list

After checking and confirming all the things others have suggested that I'm sure know more than me, I can share with you my experience when starting my car after emptying the water system.

The water hoses needed to be "burped" or squeezed to get all the air out of the system. The manual says something about jacking the rear of the car up as well.

It took burping, and bleeding air out of my radiator with the little valves on the radiator to get the bubbles out completely.

Also, we needed to run the engine, all the way to HOT, hot enough to cause the thermostat to open. If the thermostat never opens, water will never flow through the radiator and fill the whole system.

When we did this, the temp gauge went to 200, but then the thermostat opened (you need to be ready to pour coolant into the main tank as soon as this happens) and only THEN will the cooling system accept coolant and fill itself up completely.

The thermostat needs to open. The engine gets hot before this happens because it has no water in it, or very little water (we filled the main tank, and had one HOT, and one cold water hose until the thermostat opened, then WOOSH! the radiator got hot, we quickly poured coolant into the main tank until it stopped accepting water, burping and squeezing the soft pipes (up front) the whole time. We also opened the bleeder valves on the radiator to let air out, they shot some coolant, then some air, then solid coolant, we closed them at that point.

We cycled the car a few times after that, checking that the thermostat opened at 180 (watched the temps drop from 185 down to like 140-150) and then back up to 180.

Now it bounces between 180 and 150, and as long as it's doing that I know all is good to go.

The expansion tank, I leave 1/2 full, so there's room to go either way.

I was told the whole water system was completely sealed, meaning even the expansion tank cap was sealed. That's how my car is running, with a sealed expansion tank cap.

I've read here others say the expansion cap is supposed to be vented (hole in the top), I'm not sure which is correct there, I know my car runs with everything sealed completely.

quote:

a sealed expansion tank cap.

I've read here others say the expansion cap is supposed to be vented (hole in the top), I'm not sure which is correct there, I know my car runs with everything sealed completely.

A radiator cap fitting is designed to be sealed in two places. At the top of the fitting 'neck', and at the smaller diameter passage inside the 'neck'.

When the fitting is in the pressure tank of a coolant system, both seals come into play. The wider top-of-the-neck seal keeps the system closed, allowing pressure to build and also allowing a vacuum to occur upon cool-down, which draws coolant from the expansion tank. More on that later.

The smaller diameter seal is designed to open at the rated pressure, preventing system damage. When that smaller seal is forced open by high pressure, the hot coolant and hot gases is directed into the expansion tank through the small hose in the neck of the pressure tank fitting, where it is retained until cool-down vacuum draws it back into the pressure tank.

AND... (this is the later part)

within the radiator cap itself is a third, small "vacuum" seal that comes into play during the cool-down of the system. That seal has a very weak spring that allows a vacuum-induced flow of coolant from the expansion tank back into the cooled-down pressure tank.

If a pressure cap is used on the expansion tank, the hot coolant and hot gases cannot escape until pressure rises to the rated pressure of the cap.

BUT, there is no reason to trap that pressure in that tank. That is why all the caps on all modern cars' expansion tanks do NOT have a pressure rating.

You can put a pressure-rated cap on the expansion tank, but it prevents the release of the hot gases and steam.

I'm happy that your car is running with an incorrect expansion tank cap.

But, I know what is correct. If the cap on your expansion tank is identified with a psi rating, it is not correct.

You are free to believe as you please.

Larry

good, short video on how a pressure cap works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JdDWWoX-70

pressure rated cap on the left, non-pressure rated cap on right

exploded pressure cap. Note the third, small seal and spring

For what it is worth, my process when filling an empty system is roughly this:

First off, a stuck thermostat is a MAJOR problem. Whenever I have my Pantera coolant system opened, I always replace the stat. Always.

AND, with the thermostat pipe removed and everything is open, I fill the engine block at the thermostat location all the way to the top. That little trick removes a LOT of air from the system before you even start the engine.

Install the stat and the stat pipe.

I then install the Lisle spill-proof funnel in the pressure tank fitting and start to add coolant to the system at the funnel.

Air trapped in the radiator can be bled at the radiator, or on cars like 2511 that have the air-bleed hose running back to the pressure tank, that trapped air is free to bleed out of the pressure tank.

Once filled, start the engine. Funnel is still in place, and filled at least half-way with coolant.

Run engine until warm enough to open thermostat. Since I prefill the block, the stat opening does not noticeably affect the funnel coolant level, but if no prefill, expect a quick drop of the funnel fluid level as coolant is allowed to enter the block. WATCH TO MAKE SURE THE FUNNEL DOES NOT EMPTY.

Eventually, the funnel coolant level reaches a steady level and very few air bubbles are being seen rising from the bottom of the funnel. You are almost done.

Shut off the engine.

As that hot coolant cools, its volume shrinks and the funnel coolant level will lower as the system refills itself to a cool state.

Wait for everything to cool down.

Put the funnel 'fluid stopper' in the funnel, remove the funnel and install the pressure tank cap. Check that the expansion tank is about 1/3 to 1/2 full.

Done.

As I take the car back onto the road, I always check the system several times after this process, but rarely need to add any coolant.

The funnel is readily available online or locally for less than $30.

I need to acknowledge Jack DeRyke for bringing the Lisle funnel to my attention, many years ago.

Larry

Dean,
any good news?

When working on my car, which was owned for 30 years by the same owner prior to me, I found my expansion tank cap to be sealed (albeit in terrible condition, with the rubber falling apart) and I was told it was supposed to be sealed.

I also seem to remember reading in the manual about the system being a completely sealed system.

I recently called around to a few Pantera shops, and they said run it sealed.

I do know what you are saying about the expansion tank, like on most cars they have a small hole to allow the coolant level to rise and fall as the engine pushes out, and pulls back in the coolant.

Since my car is functioning perfectly (it can idle for hours in 100 degree weather) I'm just going to leave it as-is.

I read about some mods that some people did, switching the tubes around to keep air from building up in the radiator as well. It seems there's a number of ways to set up the cooling system on our cars.

quote:

Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:

quote:

a sealed expansion tank cap.

I've read here others say the expansion cap is supposed to be vented (hole in the top), I'm not sure which is correct there, I know my car runs with everything sealed completely.

A radiator cap fitting is designed to be sealed in two places. At the top of the fitting 'neck', and at the smaller diameter passage inside the 'neck'.

When the fitting is in the pressure tank of a coolant system, both seals come into play. The wider top-of-the-neck seal keeps the system closed, allowing pressure to build and also allowing a vacuum to occur upon cool-down, which draws coolant from the expansion tank. More on that later.

The smaller diameter seal is designed to open at the rated pressure, preventing system damage. When that smaller seal is forced open by high pressure, the hot coolant and hot gases is directed into the expansion tank through the small hose in the neck of the pressure tank fitting, where it is retained until cool-down vacuum draws it back into the pressure tank.

AND... (this is the later part)

within the radiator cap itself is a third, small "vacuum" seal that comes into play during the cool-down of the system. That seal has a very weak spring that allows a vacuum-induced flow of coolant from the expansion tank back into the cooled-down pressure tank.

If a pressure cap is used on the expansion tank, the hot coolant and hot gases cannot escape until pressure rises to the rated pressure of the cap.

BUT, there is no reason to trap that pressure in that tank. That is why all the caps on all modern cars' expansion tanks do NOT have a pressure rating.

You can put a pressure-rated cap on the expansion tank, but it prevents the release of the hot gases and steam.

I'm happy that your car is running with an incorrect expansion tank cap.

But, I know what is correct. If the cap on your expansion tank is identified with a psi rating, it is not correct.

You are free to believe as you please.

Larry

good, short video on how a pressure cap works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JdDWWoX-70

pressure rated cap on the left, non-pressure rated cap on right

Just got the car back from the garage, and 7 months after purchase finally got to drive her, they couldn't find anything wrong with the cooling system other than the temp sensor in the tank is suspect so they ordered another from the US. Not sure about the fans so taking it easy at present. They did a couple of other things like changing the clutch fluid but now the bite point is too high so they'll have to adjust that and the exhausts are popping on lift off so maybe it needs a tune. I'll drive it over the weekend and post how I'm doing on Sunday.

Congratulations, glad to hear you are getting there and enjoy the weekend driving!

The temp sensor should be relocated to the block, this is a standard modification and I believe one of the original TSB's (Technical Service Bulletins).

Julian

quote:

I recently called around to a few Pantera shops, and they said run it sealed.

Would that be the vendor that has sold Windsor thermostats for our Cleveland engines?

Perhaps the vendor that told me, with all sincerity, that it is not necessary to have the ZF ring and pinion bolts safety wired?

Maybe the vendor that sold Lord-knows-how-many reproduction, "bolt-in" clutch master cylinders that had such cheap o-rings that they tended to dissolve and fall apart, sometimes within days of installation?

Perhaps the vendor who told me there are only two versions of the left and right side marker lights? In truth, each side marker corner has its own, unique design and they are marked with different part numbers. I've got all four if anyone needs photographic proof.

Or maybe the vendor that sold, for years, fiberglass front "L" bumpers that were about 2" narrower than the factory original unit?

I could go on....

Bottom line, our vendors are vital to our marque, but they are not always correct.

My 2¢

Larry

There are Ford Pantera manuals indicating the surge-pressure-shorter tank uses a 13# cap.

Those same manuals make no note of a pressure rating for the expansion tank, just calling it a cap.

The caps for the two tanks are listed with different part numbers.

The manual illustration clearly shows two different styles of caps.

Again, I am pleased your car runs fine with a pressure cap on the expansion tank.

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:..
I also seem to remember reading in the manual about the system being a completely sealed system..

I "think" the phrase sealed is from the historical perpestive that automotive coolant systems prior to the 70's did NOT have recovery systems and required periodical addition of coolant. Thus marketing came up with the phrase sealed to refer to the recovery system which was relatively new at the time the Pantera was introduced.

Installing a second pressure cap on the expansion (recovery) tank might be a good thing!. The pressure that might devolp in the recovery tank would result in a greater than atmospheric pressure on the top of the swirl tank's cap pressure seal and increase its lifting pressure.

Dean, I hope you have a great weekend driving.

No no no....every part of the front end makes an terrible noise, and I lost at a junction..scared me silly.....not happy!

do you mean the front suspension is noisy?

and I don't have a clue what "lost at a junction" would mean.

spun out?

understeer fail to negotiate a turn?

I am just doing research. I think I've figured it out.

The cap on the main tank (the one with the big hoses from the engine) has the pressure cap, no argument there.

The expansion tank, has a hole in the neck, so if a regular pressure cap is uses there, then YES, this is incorrect, as there will be no way for the coolant to flow up or down.

But if a sealed cap is used (cap with round rubber piece) then that doesn't impede the coolant and air from flowing in and out through the vent tube on the expansion tank. Look at the diagram pic you posted (#21).

The issue arises when you put a regular radiator cap on the expansion tank, which makes a seal BELOW the hole in the neck of the expansion tank. This keeps the system completely sealed and may cause pressure problems I would assume.

quote:

Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:

quote:

I recently called around to a few Pantera shops, and they said run it sealed.

Would that be the vendor that has sold Windsor thermostats for our Cleveland engines?

Perhaps the vendor that told me, with all sincerity, that it is not necessary to have the ZF ring and pinion bolts safety wired?

Maybe the vendor that sold Lord-knows-how-many reproduction, "bolt-in" clutch master cylinders that had such cheap o-rings that they tended to dissolve and fall apart, sometimes within days of installation?

Perhaps the vendor who told me there are only two versions of the left and right side marker lights? In truth, each side marker corner has its own, unique design and they are marked with different part numbers. I've got all four if anyone needs photographic proof.

Or maybe the vendor that sold, for years, fiberglass front "L" bumpers that were about 2" narrower than the factory original unit?

I could go on....

Bottom line, our vendors are vital to our marque, but they are not always correct.

My 2¢

Larry

There are Ford Pantera manuals indicating the surge-pressure-shorter tank uses a 13# cap.

Those same manuals make no note of a pressure rating for the expansion tank, just calling it a cap.

The caps for the two tanks are listed with different part numbers.

The manual illustration clearly shows two different styles of caps.

Again, I am pleased your car runs fine with a pressure cap on the expansion tank.

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:
I am just doing research. I think I've figured it out.

The cap on the main tank (the one with the big hoses from the engine) has the pressure cap, no argument there.

The expansion tank, has a hole in the neck, so if a regular pressure cap is uses there, then YES, this is incorrect, as there will be no way for the coolant to flow up or down.

But if a sealed cap is used (cap with round rubber piece) then that doesn't impede the coolant and air from flowing in and out through the vent tube on the expansion tank. Look at the diagram pic you posted (#21).

The issue arises when you put a regular radiator cap on the expansion tank, which makes a seal BELOW the hole in the neck of the expansion tank. This keeps the system completely sealed and may cause pressure problems I would assume.

quote:

Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:

quote:

I recently called around to a few Pantera shops, and they said run it sealed.

Would that be the vendor that has sold Windsor thermostats for our Cleveland engines?

Perhaps the vendor that told me, with all sincerity, that it is not necessary to have the ZF ring and pinion bolts safety wired?

Maybe the vendor that sold Lord-knows-how-many reproduction, "bolt-in" clutch master cylinders that had such cheap o-rings that they tended to dissolve and fall apart, sometimes within days of installation?

Perhaps the vendor who told me there are only two versions of the left and right side marker lights? In truth, each side marker corner has its own, unique design and they are marked with different part numbers. I've got all four if anyone needs photographic proof.

Or maybe the vendor that sold, for years, fiberglass front "L" bumpers that were about 2" narrower than the factory original unit?

I could go on....

Bottom line, our vendors are vital to our marque, but they are not always correct.

My 2¢

Larry

There are Ford Pantera manuals indicating the surge-pressure-shorter tank uses a 13# cap.

Those same manuals make no note of a pressure rating for the expansion tank, just calling it a cap.

The caps for the two tanks are listed with different part numbers.

The manual illustration clearly shows two different styles of caps.

Again, I am pleased your car runs fine with a pressure cap on the expansion tank.

Yes, in other words, the tall tank, #22 is vented to the atmosphere. It's ONLY purpose is to maintain a reservoir to top off the pressurized portion of the cooling system AND to catch expansion overflow from it.

It is kept at 1/2 full or 1/2 empty (depending on your perspective).

The cap is "optional" to it's operation. It will do the same job without it.

quote:

Originally posted by JFB #05177:
do you mean the front suspension is noisy?

and I don't have a clue what "lost at a junction" would mean.

Yes the suspension or the steering is making a terrible noise, and regarding " lost at a junction" I mean I made a left turn and the car ended up backwards...too much power whilst turning!

So I guess the car is no longer overheating?

On to the next challenge!

Rocky