Some good...some bad! It passed the MoT test ... But it over heated on the way home.

Are you using a correct 351C thermostat with the hat? Sounds like you could have a 351W thermostat which is allowing the water to merely circulate through the engine without forcing it to the radiator. Marlin Jack on this board sells the correct thermostat with a precision machined hat.

I don't think I explained that very well...the is water in the lower tank but I can't see the upper tank but I think that's just for expansion anyway..the pipes going towards the front of the car are hot..but the ones returning to the radiator are cold...is there an electric pump or is it belt driven, is it possible I've got and air lock? Coolant is not leaking anywhere either so I'm stuck...but I do have an mot!...they must have missed the cracked windscreen that I'm still waiting on the replacement.

Great to hear you are legal...too bad on the roll back home

the original coolant system is a belt driven water pump off the engine's front pulley

Congratulations on you getting the MOT, not an easy accomplishment in the UK.
Did the water tank spit out water or did it read high on the temp gauge?
The water pump is driven off the engine pulley with a belt that also drives the alternator. If your battery was charging / amp meter reading or alternator lamp not on, your belt is most likely installed and running. Water pumps generally leak when they fail, they normally don't stop moving water.
The thermostat being stuck closed is the most common reason for over heating. The 351c thermostat is unique to this engine and if the incorrect one is used, it can also cause overheating. Have a look at George's post in this link which have pictures..
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...50045562/m/346105744

A stuck thermostat will cause overheating pretty quickly. Remove the engine cover over the air filter, remove the air filter and you should be able to see / touch the engine water outlet pipe and see where it connects to the water tank. Start the car and let it idle, watch the water temp gauge (hopefully the water temp sensor is located in the engine block right next to where the water outlet pipe bolts to the engine, which holds the thermostat). After a couple of minutes if you are touching the water pipe you will feel it get a little warmer. When the water temp gauge starts to get near half way, the water pipe will or should suddenly get very warm as the thermostat opens. You can use an IR heat gun if you have one, your gauge may read lower when the thermostat opens. Don't let the car over heat.
In the link above is a diagram of the water flow, only the system tank has a pressure cap.
Or you can look at JFB's post who beat me to it..

You sir are a great help....even I can understand those instruction...as soon as I get back from work tomorrow I'll have a go and let you know...thanks again for the advice

I am so reluctant to ask this because it make me sound like a complete hairdresser...but. In the diagram there appears to be two radiators...I've only seen and checked the one in the extream rear of the car ...the one with an electric fan and a tank at the side that looks like an oil cooler....is this the only rad or is there another?

quote:

I've only seen and checked the one in the extream rear of the car

That's not a rad. It' part of the Air Conditioning system. The little tank beside it is the dryer. The much larger cooling radiator is up front. The heater core is enclosed in a box under the dash and you can't really see it.

Doug M

And don't worry about sounding like a hairdresser. The only way to learn about the car is to ask.

Doug M

So what's wrong with sounding like and being a hairdresser? You don't like my hair?

I seem to have lost some of the links...regarding the access and position of the thermostat...can anyone help please

If you not seeing images in the threads (including Doug's monkey), you are most likely not logged into the forum. I see the pictures and the threads work for me.
If you still having problems, attach a picture of what you are seeing.

quote:

Originally posted by bdud:
If you not seeing images in the threads (including Doug's monkey), you are most likely not logged into the forum. I see the pictures and the threads work for me.
If you still having problems, attach a picture of what you are seeing.

MONKEY? Don't you know an Orangutan when you see us?

The link missing is the one explaining where the thermostat is and how to gain access...other than using a garden spade and crowbar as is my usual preferred access method of access to cars that throw a tantrum after $65k and 1 mile....maybe I should buy a Toyota!

Still can't see the thermostat !

The thermostat is not easy to see or get to on a Pantera, not sure it will show it in any of those links. It is at the front of the engine under that metal pipe that goes to the system tank. 2 bolts hold that pipe down onto the engine block. Here is a picture of mine from the inside with the bulkhead cover removed.

No need to be rash and get a Toyota, life is not that bad. I would try to get to the thermostat from the back by crawling on top of the gearbox. Remove the engine cover, air filter - put a rag or tape over the carb to stop dropping parts in the engine, you may have to remove the distributor cap or disconnect some leads - may sure you note where they go.
Disconnect a pipe from underneath or just all the water / antifreeze come out when you remove the thermostat 2 bolts. It is normally treated as a hazardous waste, don't get it in your eyes, you will know why.
To fill up use the older "green" style anti freeze. The modern stuff is not compatible with the copper / lead / solder in the heater and engine radiator. It also needs to be replaced every couple of years to prevent corrosion.
Picture from the back. Still not easy to see..

it looks do-able..I'll get my spoons and spanners out tonight and have a go...the missing link advised going in through the rear bulkhead...is this not an option without using oxy-acetlene?

If you have the stock style swirl and overflow tanks, you might make a little less of a mess by using a thin piece of tubing and syphening the coolant our of both tanks as low as it will go.

The coolant has to come out somehow - better to catch as much of it as you can versus pouring it out through the radiator pipe connection into your interior.


Rocky

quote:

Originally posted by Pishadeperro:
it looks do-able..I'll get my spoons and spanners out tonight and have a go...the missing link advised going in through the rear bulkhead...is this not an option without using oxy-acetlene?

Put down the torch and crowbar and step away from the car.. Or I will set Doug's Orangeetange on you.
You can get to the front of the engine for changing belts, water pump etc by removing the cover behind the seats. Some cars are different on what panels are installed and some cars have been modified.
On my car I slide the 2 seats forward, tilt the seat backs forward, remove the top seatbelt retractor guides, a couple of thin long screws holding the upholstered cover at the bottom and then lift the complete cover up over thin metal hooks that are located at the top near where you removed the seatbelt bolts. Underneath is a metal dished cover that has many bolts around its edge. You can then see the front of the engine.

I was only joking about the crowbar...I have a fully comprehensive set of mechanic tools

If you want to get the thermostat out you're going to need a bigger hammer

Doug M

Isn't there a Pantera friend nearby that can help you?

I'm not sure the Pantera is the best car to learn on. It is possible to do more damage than good if you're not careful. For example, a relatively simple problem could be resolved easily for an experienced mechanic, however, someone that has no experience troubleshooting a car could be tearing it apart needlessly, thus causing more problems than they started with...

I applaud your willingness to learn but learning over the internet isn't the best method. A friend with a Pantera that can come over and help would be better IMO.

BUT, we are here to help if you don't have a mechanic friend nearby...

Thanks for your concern and your offer of help...but I'm like pork..I Can't be educated and experience over many years has taught me that I'm never going to be a mechanic..that's why I became an electrician...but I have an large advantage now I'm older ...a mobile phone and a great credit card...I therefore am confident enough to be able to f..k anything up and pay someone to fix it...but I get a great deal of pleasure f..king it up first though.
I have an impressive collection of cars And eventually I've got them all running like a cheap Swiss watch....it's been done by a process of elimination...sooner or later I get it right!

Ps I live in Doncaster...nobody here has a Pantera...or a car...but there is a pony in the next village

LOL... I like your attitude!

And boy is it beautiful there!

We are here to help...

You could try the UK DeTomaso owners club, if they are still around, some links don't seem to work.
http://www.detomasodc.co.uk/contact

I am a Brit and bought my Pantera when Phil Stebbings was starting the club. Norman Ashton from Newark with a Mangusta was #2, I was #3. They had nice meetings, good times.

quote:

Originally posted by Pishadeperro:
Thanks for your concern and your offer of help...but I'm like pork..I Can't be educated and experience over many years has taught me that I'm never going to be a mechanic..that's why I became an electrician...but I have an large advantage now I'm older ...a mobile phone and a great credit card...I therefore am confident enough to be able to f..k anything up and pay someone to fix it...but I get a great deal of pleasure f..king it up first though

I have an impressive collection of cars And eventually I've got them all running like a cheap Swiss watch....it's been done by a process of elimination...sooner or later I get it right!

I feel ya, I could have written this myself

Hi Andy, I met Ropger last week, a relly nice but busy guy...I spent an enjoyable hour with him discussing cars and he said he'd call me when he has time and space to look at the car.
Regards to the club...I found the website but it appeared to be dormant for the past couple of years so I presumed it was defunct...as with every make of car I own..all the social meeting are down south...us poor northerners get forgot about..even the Northen Austin Club meets are in Coventry...which is as far south as I've ever been as there be giants down there...and they all speak in "tongues"

quote:

Originally posted by Pishadeperro:
....there is water in the first header tank and the pipes are hot but the pipe work to the rad and the rad itself are clad cold...anyone got any ideas?

Brass restrictor plate missing, wrong thermostat installed, low coolant level and/or air pocket in the system

some/all these conspire to recirculate Hot coolant through the engine but not be able to send any to the radiator

first check is to make sure the Brass plate is in place under the T-stat, and the T-tat is the correct type with the 'bell' on the bottom of the temp sensor doo-dad

can you post up pics?

quote:

Originally posted by Pishadeperro:
Hi Andy, I met Ropger last week, a relly nice but busy guy...I spent an enjoyable hour with him discussing cars and he said he'd call me when he has time and space to look at the car.
Regards to the club...I found the website but it appeared to be dormant for the past couple of years so I presumed it was defunct...as with every make of car I own..all the social meeting are down south...us poor northerners get forgot about..even the Northen Austin Club meets are in Coventry...which is as far south as I've ever been as there be giants down there...and they all speak in "tongues"

I know, I have one of them southerners living with my daugther, still, they make lovely grandchildern

#1154

Ok...I've taken the thermostat out....it opens and close's fine....but is it the correct one for my engine?

Not correct.

Plus it appears to be a 160 degree unit, not what many of us use.

Larry

Your style on the left.

Proper Cleveland style with the additional "hat" on the right.

Is there a name for the correct one...I may have to buy it from the U.S. by someone must sell them in the UK if I knew what to ask for

Marlin Jack on this forum sells them plus the brass plate which sits underneath, on eBay..
http://www.ebay.com/itm/351C-C...?hash=item2a52e4ab23

Do you know what water pump you have installed? Some water pumps have the bypass blocked, mainly Weiand pumps. If you have one of those pumps you can use a regular thermostat, but the bypass could have been drilled... You can also use a plate with just a small bleed hole and then also use a regular thermostat. It is still recommended to use the correct one..
Do you have the brass plate under the thermostat?
This thread has some nice pictures..
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...562/m/7101010346/p/1
The Robertshaw thermostat is considered a high flow thermostat.

Apparentley the correct one looks like the one on the right....so now I'm total confused!!

So did they jam 2 thermostats in there?
What is the temperature markings on the Robertshaw thermostat?
Do you have a brass plate under where the thermostat sits?

The thermostat on the right is the correct Cleveland style to use with the brass plate, and the bypass hole drilled in the water pump.

Some people also like to drill a 1/8" hole into the thermostat itself but I don't really think you need that in the Cleveland cooling design?

I would not worry much about using a 160 thermostat vs a 182. I use a 160. It is fine for this car.

It is almost insignificant in this car. Your water temp will reach 230 to 240 regardless of which thermostat you use.

My idling temps are right around 212 with the 160.

The significant temperature is the oil temp. That is as long as your coolant doesn't boil over. That would be more significant? That shouldn't happen until 252 with 50/50 coolant and a 16 psi cap.

The OIL needs to reach 212 F to boil out the moisture. You will START to cook out other contaminants at 180 but you will not remove the moisture until it boils.

If you don't get hot enough you will cause undue wear and tear, can score the piston bores, over stress other components.

The water thermostat does not control that. Particularly in a Pantera. The quantity of fluid is calculated to arrive at operating temperatures, considering the pressure of the water pump and the distance the fluid needs to travel.

The last photo is one I nicked from another site...I'm just trying to confirm which is the correct one...The original photo is the one I've taken out of the car....I just need info on what type to fit...

is the restrictor plate in place, in the block under the T-stat?



.

Get it from MarlinJack here. He has the right one and has the brass plate if you need one. Even if you don't get one as a spare. They are not expensive.
Airmail to the UK and the GB customs is fast.
Why mess around with the locals who do not know what you are talking about.
The Cleveland thermostat has become difficult to get.

It gets crossed over in the listings to the Windsor unit (the one on the left in the picture) which is the wrong one.

Switching the thermostat system in the Pantera plays havoc with everything. You do not want to or need to reinvent the wheel.

Pishadeperro this is MarlinJack. There. Now you are introduced.

I hear you...but I've just been to the number one guy in the UK and bought a replacement.
Once fitted the temp was off the gauge in 3 mins....no heat in the radiator or front pipes...water in the header tank still cold..but engine steaming....as a process of elimination shall I remove the stat completley..I think it maybe the pump though as it ran with this type of stat in when the appraiser drove it in StLouise...if it was stuck I'd understand it but it must have worked for him...

But I'd still like to buy another...can I pay you with PayPal?

quote:

Originally posted by 4V & Proud:
is the restrictor plate in place, in the block under the T-stat?
.

???

Yes I think so...but back to my original comment...the car was driven some distance by the appraiser before it left the U.S...this would not have been possible if the stat was wrong as the engine would have let go after a short time as it gets too hot after. 3 mins sat in my garage...I can remove the stat completly to eliminate this but think there is another issue

quote:

Originally posted by Pishadeperro:
...I can remove the stat completly to eliminate this ...

I just wanted to verify, you are saying you removed the stat and the engine would run/drive around without over heating?

Couldn't you verify the stats were opening with a pot of boiling water?

Yes..I removed the stat and put it in boiling water to check it worked fine...I have now fitted another new stat which is the correct type.....I was thinking about removing the stat completley to eliminate that part of the system as everyone has a different opinion on what type to use.....but I'm convinced is not the stat...it's not air locked either as I've bled the system

is that "YES", I can drive the car without the stat and not overheating?

if the wrong stat is used, I was thinking that a percent of the coolant flow was just circulated from the pump, through the block/heads and back to the pump due to the hole in the resector plate. and not going to the radiator.

thus without a stat, the same would happen unless the hole in the restrictor plate was pluged (or the pump not drilled for bypass)

with out the stat, could you notice flow in the swirl tank, increasing with rpms?

I am now total lost!!!

Sometimes the first thing to determine is not the most obvious.

Something wacky appears to be going on here.

The forum wisdom has determined your Pantera had the incorrect thermostat installed. You now say you have the correct one from the "number one guy". ARE YOU SURE?

Even with our photos of the correct style thermostat, you seemed to not grasp the difference.

Can you please post a photo of the one you sourced in UK?

For now (until we see a photo), let's assume it IS the correct style, let's move on.

And actually, even it is is the wrong one, the pipes and radiator should be getting warm.

Which leads me to this train of thought.

The problem is believed to be poor circulation of coolant.

What circulates coolant? The water pump.

SOOOO.....

Have you confirmed there is a fan belt turning the water pump? A bad belt means no circulation.

If confirmed, you next need to confirm the water pump is freely rotating.

I've had just one frozen water pump experience, but it can happen.

Just saying........

Larry

Larry....This sounds more likely....I will check the belts as even with my extreamly limited knowledge it points to the pump as the water is not movings at all....

If the thermostat is the wrong one (Windsor thermostat) then it's missing the little hat that needs to seat against the block plate and water will not be forced to go to the radiator. Therefore, your radiator will not get hot. The same thing will happen if you try to run without a thermostat at all.

Share a pic of your thermostat, or a part name/number at the very least.

One worry though...if it is the pump...how do I change it?

As in how do you access it? Access to the front of the engine is through the rear bulkhead in the passenger compartment. Once the bulkhead cover is removed there is a metal "bubble" that needs to be removed also. This will uncover the front of the engine. There is a fairly simple modification you can do to the bulkhead cover which would allow the removal of the bubble without removing the entire bulkhead cover.

I'm betting the belt has broken or jumped the pully .. any takers? :-)

Here's some more info on the correct thermostat.
http://www.banzairunnerpantera...dates_thermostat.htm

Also, here's thread with pics of how you access the water pump from the interior.
http://www.banzairunnerpantera...tes_distrinstall.htm

quote:

Originally posted by Robbie:
I'm betting the belt has broken or jumped the pully .. any takers? :-)

Having a warning light to let you know the pump is not pumpng seems like it would be nice to have?

quote:

Having a warning light to let you know the pump is not pumpng seems like it would be nice to have?

That's what the temp gauge is for. If its hot something is wrong. Best not to over complicate the issue.

quote:

Originally posted by ItalFord:

quote:

Having a warning light to let you know the pump is not pumpng seems like it would be nice to have?

That's what the temp gauge is for. If its hot something is wrong. Best not to over complicate the issue.

In this situation with a novice mechanic, verify that the gauge is actually what the temp is.

Verify that the cap is actually sealing and holding pressure. If it isn't the system WILL "boil over" at about 215F.

Do you even know how to do that? You MUST pressure test the CAP and the entire system. You NEED the pressure test kit in order to do that.

Just because you may have changed the cap doesn't mean 1) it is the correct one 2) it is actually sealing against it's seat on the tank. The Pantera takes a european stile long cap.
A 18 year old selling you parts out of a book is not going to pick up on that. The cap is not necessarily a universal cap. Many US caps will not seal against the seat in the pressure tank.

The Pantera pressure tank is special and unique to the car. It is in no way universal to anything. Don't look at me like I have four eyes if you don't know what I am talking about?

This is not a big learning curve but you are not going to learn it any other place but here.

On the pump, first you need to verify that the belt is connected and tight but actually even before that you need to verify that the water pump pulley is bolted to the pump drive flange?

There are too many paramaters here that you are looking at and have no idea what you are looking at.

The engine just didn't just self destruct itself out of now where. There is something unusual but still strange that you are looking right at but are not seeing.

Removed the bulkhead and got to the front of the engine...all belts are tight and pulley's are turning...think I may have the added problem of a faulty gauge because on start up it went straight to 160 degrees...reaching about 220, it boiled over within 2 mins of ticking over..

quote:

Originally posted by Pishadeperro:
.. it boiled over within 2 mins of ticking over..

What are you seeing when you say "boiled over"?

are the caps on both coolant tanks when you observe boil over?

how full are both tanks with the engine cold?

when it boiled over, were the pipes at the radiator still cold? how about the swirl tank, was it still cold?

No heat in the rad or front pipes...swirl tank is still cold but expansion tank is hot...could it be a badly fitted cap and a dodgy temp gauge...is there a way of testing the temp gauge?

a dogy temp gauge is possible. DO you know where your temp sender is located. there are at least three possible locations. the original location is the Supply (swirl) tank. the better location is just below the stat and some have used the water pump aux return plug. using a test thermometer is the best way to determine the actual temp to compare to the gauge. A lot have purchased those non contact IR guns

the illustration below is the original, the arrangement can be modified though. is your expansion tank hose arrangement like shown? or is there a third lower hose back to the water pump.

what type of caps do you have on the tanks. the cap on the supply (swirl) should be the pressure cap, but the cap on the expansion (recovery) is just a cover so it allows overflow to dump to ground

why are you saying "boiled over"?

Sure. Get a IR temp gun. Should be readily available. The temp sensor for the gauge should be mounted in the front of the block below the thermostat, NOT in the stock location in the tank.

First check you water pump is spinning.

It seems hard to believe the Expansion Tank (long, taller tank) is hot, and the swirl tank is not (shorter tank with two big hoses coming in and out) is not. Both tanks (if stock) have pressure caps on them.

Rocky

quote:

Originally posted by Rocky:
Both tanks (if stock) have pressure caps on them.

Rocky

The expansion tank should have a non-pressurized cap if you have the stock cooling system. See this thread.
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...0045562/m/9961098456

Rocky[/QUOTE]
The expansion tank should have a non-pressurized cap

Thats wrong, the Expension tank must have a pressurized cap, the overflow a non pressurized cap.
Simon

quote:

Rocky

The expansion tank should have a non-pressurized cap

Thats wrong, the Expension tank must have a pressurized cap, the overflow a non pressurized cap.
Simon[/quote]


Sorry Simon, Rocky is correct.

The two tanks are FOREVER being mis-named by owners. It makes these types of discussions very difficult and confusing when the same tank is called a different name by different people.

Please refer to the diagram posted in this thread by JFB.

The tall tank, the one that has the overflow hose that drains to the ground, does NOT use a pressured cap.

The shorter tank, the one that has the large diameter hoses at top and bottom, DOES need a pressure cap.

Larry

You want a full cooling system. You want it full when cold. You want it air tight. As the engine warms up, the coolant heats and expands in volume. That heated, and expanded in volume, coolant needs to go somewhere. The expansion tank is so named as it is the reservoir for the heat-expanded volume of coolant that is created once the engine is up to operating temperature.

It collects the coolant and holds it until engine shut off. As the engine cools, the coolant volume in the system shrinks, creates a vacuum and the coolant collected in the expansion tank is drawn back into the cooling system.

Then the pattern repeats itself.

Larry

quote:

Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:

quote:

Rocky

The expansion tank should have a non-pressurized cap

Thats wrong, the Expension tank must have a pressurized cap, the overflow a non pressurized cap.
Simon

Sorry Simon, Rocky is correct.

The two tanks are FOREVER being mis-named by owners. It makes these types of discussions very difficult and confusing when the same tank is called a different name by different people.

Please refer to the diagram posted in this thread by JFB.

The tall tank, the one that has the overflow hose that drains to the ground, does NOT use a pressured cap.

The shorter tank, the one that has the large diameter hoses at top and bottom, DOES need a pressure cap.

Larry[/QUOTE]
Larry
thats exactly what I say ,the first tank is the pressure tank, the other tank the overflow tank whitout pressure cap.
sometimes I have seen that both tanks have the same lenght , only the hose's are different.
Simon

I agree I mis-spoke. My stock system had just a twist on cap on the tall expansion tank.

I typed too fast, and didn't remember hard enough. Sorry.

Rocky.

quote:

Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:
You want a full cooling system. You want it full when cold. You want it air tight. As the engine warms up, the coolant heats and expands in volume. That heated, and expanded in volume, coolant needs to go somewhere. The expansion tank is so named as it is the reservoir for the heat-expanded volume of coolant that is created once the engine is up to operating temperature.

It collects the coolant and holds it until engine shut off. As the engine cools, the coolant volume in the system shrinks, creates a vacuum and the coolant collected in the expansion tank is drawn back into the cooling system.

Then the pattern repeats itself.

Larry

This is correct, theoretically. In practice you will find that after at least one complete heat/ cool cycle, there will be about 3 inches of air space in the pressure tank.

That is where the system adjusts itself and will maintain that level for normal operating.

And we once again demonstrate the problems in naming these tanks.

PLEASE:

Refer to the nice, colorful diagram posted earlier in this thread. The tank names listed are the most common names used for these tanks.

Simon previously said - "the Expension tank must have a pressurized cap"

Which I said is wrong. Because it is wrong.

Then Simon wrote -

quote:

Larry
thats exactly what I say ,the first tank is the pressure tank

So Simon, in just this thread, has called the short tank -

expansion tank
pressure tank
first tank

No wonder it is so hard to understand our cooling systems and how they work.

While some cars may now have two tanks of the same size, from the factory there was the shorter
PRESURE tank and the taller EXPANSION tank.

In any case, we still haven't solved this overheating problem.

Our UK owner - do you have a name?? - said it "boils over".

We need to better understand what that means. Water coming out? If so, where? Boiling noises? If so, from where?

He said the belts are tight and pulleys are turning. Was this observed with the engine running? Or a static test? Have you removed the water pump belt and rotated the pump by hand?

Have the under car pipes been inspected for damage, that is, crushed somehow?

There is still something wacky here.

I have heard of the pump's internal impeller loosening from the pulley shaft, so while it turns on the outside pulley, the impeller isn't turning. A long shot, but all needs to be considered.

Please, dear UK friend, more specific details. The more the better. Troubleshooting from across The Pond needs all the descriptive text possible.

Larry

quote:

I agree I mis-spoke. My stock system had just a twist on cap on the tall expansion tank.

Rocky, that is correct and as it should be.

Is everyone now totally confused?

Larry

Ok...It's been a least two hours since I switched it of...I've just turn the ignition on and the temp gauge went straight to 200 degrees...The block is still slightly warm but not 200 degrees....I've ordered a IR temp gun but that'll take a couple of days to come...if the header tank cap was badly fitted would that let steam out...what I'm thinking is that with a faulty 200degree reading and steam coming out of the tank...maybe the car is not reaching temp? That's why the rad is Luke warm and no fans are cutting in...and by the way my name is Dean ( not knob of dog in spanish)

quote:

This is correct, theoretically. In practice you will find that after at least one complete heat/ cool cycle, there will be about 3 inches of air space in the pressure tank.

That is where the system adjusts itself and will maintain that level for normal operating.

I have no reason to doubt that is your experience.

However, my experience with 2511 leaves a totally full pressure tank when everything has cooled down.

2511 has a stock system, Weiand water pump, blocked-off restrictor plate and a high flow Windsor style thermostat, with the top of the radiator bleed hose running back to the pressure tank, as per TSB #8, article 61.

Larry

quote:

steam coming out of the tank

Makes me think the pump is working. If no water was moving, don't think the pressure tank would see that kind of heat.

Makes me, again, question if the under car pipes have been inspected?

A visual inspection of ALL the cooling system is something that needs to be completed. Try to look inside the pressure tank, too.

Larry

quote:

he temp gauge went straight to 200 degrees...The block is still slightly warm but not 200 degrees

Dean,

have you confirmed the temp sensor is located in the block? The stock location was - incorrectly - in the pressure tank.

Most have now been moved to the front of the block, but some may still be in that tank, which works fine until the water level falls below the sensor, gives a false air temp reading and allows your engine to self-destruct with no water.

Larry

To eliminate the thermostat once. And for all. What'd happen if I just removed it....

quote:

To eliminate the thermostat once. And for all. What'd happen if I just removed it....

No water would be forced to go through the radiator and your engine would overheat miserably! You need the correct thermostat with the hat to seal against the block plate in order for the water pump to develop sufficient line pressure to force the coolant all the way up to the radiator and back.

quote:

To eliminate the thermostat once. And for all. What'd happen if I just removed it....

Since you said you have tested the thermostat and confirmed it is opening, I can see no manner by which it would be causing your problem. You can better use your time.

Put your car up on jack stands, slide underneath and do an inspection.

We are either missing something very obvious that hasn't been conveyed to us, or there is something out-of-the-box going on here.

Troubleshooting goes by steps. First step, confirm system is as designed and not damaged.

Larry

quote:

have you confirmed the temp sensor is located in the block? The stock location was - incorrectly - in the pressure tank.

Hi Dean,

Here's where the temp sender SHOULD be located or moved to, in the block directly beneath the thermostat and right above the water pump (half visible in this picture with the red wire and blue connector). There's a 1/2" pipe plug there already, so on my car it was merely a matter of moving the pipe plug to the water pump and moving the temp sender to the block.

to see if the pump is pumping, how about a section of clear 5/8" hose to bypass the heater core and there would be flow there even with stat closed (and radiator/piping plugged)

is there a thought some one could have dropped a small ball in the pressure (swirl) tank and it is now lodged in the tubes?

quote:

Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:
And we once again demonstrate the problems in naming these tanks.

PLEASE:

Refer to the nice, colorful diagram posted earlier in this thread. The tank names listed are the most common names used for these tanks.

Simon previously said - "the Expension tank must have a pressurized cap"

Which I said is wrong. Because it is wrong.

Then Simon wrote -

quote:

Larry
thats exactly what I say ,the first tank is the pressure tank

So Simon, in just this thread, has called the short tank -

expansion tank
pressure tank
first tank

No wonder it is so hard to understand our cooling systems and how they work.

While some cars may now have two tanks of the same size, from the factory there was the shorter
PRESURE tank and the taller EXPANSION tank.

In any case, we still haven't solved this overheating problem.

Our UK owner - do you have a name?? - said it "boils over".

We need to better understand what that means. Water coming out? If so, where? Boiling noises? If so, from where?

He said the belts are tight and pulleys are turning. Was this observed with the engine running? Or a static test? Have you removed the water pump belt and rotated the pump by hand?

Have the under car pipes been inspected for damage, that is, crushed somehow?

There is still something wacky here.

I have heard of the pump's internal impeller loosening from the pulley shaft, so while it turns on the outside pulley, the impeller isn't turning. A long shot, but all needs to be considered.

Please, dear UK friend, more specific details. The more the better. Troubleshooting from across The Pond needs all the descriptive text possible.

Larry

I think the tanks should have numbers instead of names. I vote for 2 and 7.I like those numbers.

Your engine won't operate at the correct design temperature. The system requires a thermostat, or more exactly, the correct thermostat.

Thanks everyone for your continued support...tomorrow I will go through all the sent links to repair or eliminate the suggestions and post my findings in detail...

quote:

Originally posted by Pishadeperro:
To eliminate the thermostat once. And for all. What'd happen if I just removed it....

if you operate a factory system with a functioning internal bypass w/o the T-stat, Hot coolant will recirculate through the engine block and never get sent to the radiator or any of the tanks for that matter... if the water pump is moving coolant at all

the T-stat acts as a switch that controls the internal bypass or warm-up circuit

when the T-stat reaches temp & opens, the warm-up circuit gets shut off & all coolant gets sent to the radiator. or a tank somewhere

here's how it works http://www.are.com.au/feat/techt/thermostat.htm

quote:

when the T-stat reaches temp & opens, the warm-up circuit gets shut off & all coolant gets sent to the radiator. or a tank somewhere

Actually, the hat on a Cleveland thermostat does not totally seal the bypass plate. There is, even at full operating temperature, a certain amount of coolant that remains bypassing within the engine block. The Cleveland bypass is internal, but other small block Ford's have an external rubber hose bypass that constantly allows a set amount of coolant to bypass being sent to the radiator.

Larry

Note the small ninety degree hose in this photo.

I'm waving the white flag.....I'm going to paint it black and put it in a dark corner of the garage and never mention it again......I admit defeat and will endeavour to find someone who knows better as I dare not run it again for risk of doing more damage...I'm sure the temp gauge is bust though as I started it this evening it and it shot immediatley to 200 degrees again, the sensor is on the expansion tank and that was cool to the touch, within 3-4. Mins of the engine ticking over it rose agin to the max about 230 degree, the engine by then smelled hot and I could hear hissing...so enough is enough...
I will however test it again once the IR temp gun arrives....I'll keep everyone posted!

Dean

I'll give you ten k and a season ticket to Elland road for it Dean

Just a thought mate, you have turned the fans yeah?

don't surrender, just retreat till enforcements arrive (the temp gun).
I'm thinking it is a faulty temp sender/gauge and an overfilled expansion (recover) tank

while you are waiting, have you considered getting a $25 "parts store" gauge/sender and installing this one in the block. I would verify it too with a pot of boiling water

Sounds to me like air pockets in the heads. My car would do what yours is doing or something very similar. See this thread Filling a completely dry system

Steve

T.Solo,
in your post about filling a coolant system, in the photo of the water pump, are you using duel temp senders? one under the stat and the other in the pump suction, thus looking at block outlet and inlet temp?

The sensor in the water pump is for my EFI ECU.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Tomato Panscourer:
I'll give you ten k and a season ticket to Elland road for it Dean

Do I have to have the season ticket?

I have taken the liberty to review the posts and have made an outline of what I thought were just the facts;

quote:

Originally posted by Pishadeperro:
1 Drove it for the first time today...it over heated ....there is water in the first header tank and the pipes are hot but the pipe work to the rad and the rad itself are clad cold...
2 water in the lower tank but I can't see the upper tank...the pipes going towards the front of the car are hot..but the ones returning to the radiator are cold....Coolant is not leaking anywhere
3 taken the thermostat out....it opens and close's fine....PHOTO NOT CORRECT ONE
4 bought a replacement… temp was off the gauge in 3 mins....no heat in the radiator or front pipes...water in the header tank still cold..but engine steaming
5 it's not air locked as I've bled the system
6 all belts are tight and pulley's are turning...on start up (gauge) went straight to 160 degrees...reaching about 220, it boiled over within 2 mins of ticking over.
7 No heat in the rad or front pipes...swirl tank is still cold but expansion tank is hot
8 least two hours since I switched it off... the temp gauge went straight to 200 degrees... steam coming out of the tank
9 (gauge) shot immediatley to 200 degrees… the sensor is on the expansion tank and that was cool to the touch, within 3-4. Mins of the engine ticking over it rose to 230 degree, the engine by then smelled hot and I could hear hissing.

Yup...that about sums it up......break down truck coming tomorrow and car been sent away to think about what it's done and won't be back until it's changed it's attitude and apologized to all concerned.....meanwhile does anyone one have a Yaris for sale!

Dean xxxx

Dean,

Did the car previously run cool without overheating? Is this new behavior? And, is this a newly rebuilt engine? If recently rebuilt, and that's when you started experiencing the overheating issue, I would check that the head gaskets were not installed backwards. Depending on the gaskets used, you may be able to tell by the location of the tabs that stick out from the head, if any. You'll need to check with the gasket manufacturer.

This may be a silly suggestion, but I've seen new waterpumps in which the impeller came loose from the shaft. No external indications except that no matter what, the engine overheated. And one was a $250 pump, not an E-Bay cheapie.

quote:

Originally posted by Bosswrench:

... I've seen new waterpumps in which the impeller came loose from the shaft ...

That happened to one of my cars. The coolant pump shaft seal was leaking, so I installed a new pump which I had purchased from NAPA, afterwards the engine had an overheating problem which it didn't have previously.

the description of the OP's problem does suggest a water pump remove & inspect

at the top of the list

After checking and confirming all the things others have suggested that I'm sure know more than me, I can share with you my experience when starting my car after emptying the water system.

The water hoses needed to be "burped" or squeezed to get all the air out of the system. The manual says something about jacking the rear of the car up as well.

It took burping, and bleeding air out of my radiator with the little valves on the radiator to get the bubbles out completely.

Also, we needed to run the engine, all the way to HOT, hot enough to cause the thermostat to open. If the thermostat never opens, water will never flow through the radiator and fill the whole system.

When we did this, the temp gauge went to 200, but then the thermostat opened (you need to be ready to pour coolant into the main tank as soon as this happens) and only THEN will the cooling system accept coolant and fill itself up completely.

The thermostat needs to open. The engine gets hot before this happens because it has no water in it, or very little water (we filled the main tank, and had one HOT, and one cold water hose until the thermostat opened, then WOOSH! the radiator got hot, we quickly poured coolant into the main tank until it stopped accepting water, burping and squeezing the soft pipes (up front) the whole time. We also opened the bleeder valves on the radiator to let air out, they shot some coolant, then some air, then solid coolant, we closed them at that point.

We cycled the car a few times after that, checking that the thermostat opened at 180 (watched the temps drop from 185 down to like 140-150) and then back up to 180.

Now it bounces between 180 and 150, and as long as it's doing that I know all is good to go.

The expansion tank, I leave 1/2 full, so there's room to go either way.

I was told the whole water system was completely sealed, meaning even the expansion tank cap was sealed. That's how my car is running, with a sealed expansion tank cap.

I've read here others say the expansion cap is supposed to be vented (hole in the top), I'm not sure which is correct there, I know my car runs with everything sealed completely.

quote:

a sealed expansion tank cap.

I've read here others say the expansion cap is supposed to be vented (hole in the top), I'm not sure which is correct there, I know my car runs with everything sealed completely.

A radiator cap fitting is designed to be sealed in two places. At the top of the fitting 'neck', and at the smaller diameter passage inside the 'neck'.

When the fitting is in the pressure tank of a coolant system, both seals come into play. The wider top-of-the-neck seal keeps the system closed, allowing pressure to build and also allowing a vacuum to occur upon cool-down, which draws coolant from the expansion tank. More on that later.

The smaller diameter seal is designed to open at the rated pressure, preventing system damage. When that smaller seal is forced open by high pressure, the hot coolant and hot gases is directed into the expansion tank through the small hose in the neck of the pressure tank fitting, where it is retained until cool-down vacuum draws it back into the pressure tank.

AND... (this is the later part)

within the radiator cap itself is a third, small "vacuum" seal that comes into play during the cool-down of the system. That seal has a very weak spring that allows a vacuum-induced flow of coolant from the expansion tank back into the cooled-down pressure tank.

If a pressure cap is used on the expansion tank, the hot coolant and hot gases cannot escape until pressure rises to the rated pressure of the cap.

BUT, there is no reason to trap that pressure in that tank. That is why all the caps on all modern cars' expansion tanks do NOT have a pressure rating.

You can put a pressure-rated cap on the expansion tank, but it prevents the release of the hot gases and steam.

I'm happy that your car is running with an incorrect expansion tank cap.

But, I know what is correct. If the cap on your expansion tank is identified with a psi rating, it is not correct.

You are free to believe as you please.

Larry

good, short video on how a pressure cap works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JdDWWoX-70

pressure rated cap on the left, non-pressure rated cap on right

exploded pressure cap. Note the third, small seal and spring

For what it is worth, my process when filling an empty system is roughly this:

First off, a stuck thermostat is a MAJOR problem. Whenever I have my Pantera coolant system opened, I always replace the stat. Always.

AND, with the thermostat pipe removed and everything is open, I fill the engine block at the thermostat location all the way to the top. That little trick removes a LOT of air from the system before you even start the engine.

Install the stat and the stat pipe.

I then install the Lisle spill-proof funnel in the pressure tank fitting and start to add coolant to the system at the funnel.

Air trapped in the radiator can be bled at the radiator, or on cars like 2511 that have the air-bleed hose running back to the pressure tank, that trapped air is free to bleed out of the pressure tank.

Once filled, start the engine. Funnel is still in place, and filled at least half-way with coolant.

Run engine until warm enough to open thermostat. Since I prefill the block, the stat opening does not noticeably affect the funnel coolant level, but if no prefill, expect a quick drop of the funnel fluid level as coolant is allowed to enter the block. WATCH TO MAKE SURE THE FUNNEL DOES NOT EMPTY.

Eventually, the funnel coolant level reaches a steady level and very few air bubbles are being seen rising from the bottom of the funnel. You are almost done.

Shut off the engine.

As that hot coolant cools, its volume shrinks and the funnel coolant level will lower as the system refills itself to a cool state.

Wait for everything to cool down.

Put the funnel 'fluid stopper' in the funnel, remove the funnel and install the pressure tank cap. Check that the expansion tank is about 1/3 to 1/2 full.

Done.

As I take the car back onto the road, I always check the system several times after this process, but rarely need to add any coolant.

The funnel is readily available online or locally for less than $30.

I need to acknowledge Jack DeRyke for bringing the Lisle funnel to my attention, many years ago.

Larry

Dean,
any good news?

When working on my car, which was owned for 30 years by the same owner prior to me, I found my expansion tank cap to be sealed (albeit in terrible condition, with the rubber falling apart) and I was told it was supposed to be sealed.

I also seem to remember reading in the manual about the system being a completely sealed system.

I recently called around to a few Pantera shops, and they said run it sealed.

I do know what you are saying about the expansion tank, like on most cars they have a small hole to allow the coolant level to rise and fall as the engine pushes out, and pulls back in the coolant.

Since my car is functioning perfectly (it can idle for hours in 100 degree weather) I'm just going to leave it as-is.

I read about some mods that some people did, switching the tubes around to keep air from building up in the radiator as well. It seems there's a number of ways to set up the cooling system on our cars.

quote:

Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:

quote:

a sealed expansion tank cap.

I've read here others say the expansion cap is supposed to be vented (hole in the top), I'm not sure which is correct there, I know my car runs with everything sealed completely.

A radiator cap fitting is designed to be sealed in two places. At the top of the fitting 'neck', and at the smaller diameter passage inside the 'neck'.

When the fitting is in the pressure tank of a coolant system, both seals come into play. The wider top-of-the-neck seal keeps the system closed, allowing pressure to build and also allowing a vacuum to occur upon cool-down, which draws coolant from the expansion tank. More on that later.

The smaller diameter seal is designed to open at the rated pressure, preventing system damage. When that smaller seal is forced open by high pressure, the hot coolant and hot gases is directed into the expansion tank through the small hose in the neck of the pressure tank fitting, where it is retained until cool-down vacuum draws it back into the pressure tank.

AND... (this is the later part)

within the radiator cap itself is a third, small "vacuum" seal that comes into play during the cool-down of the system. That seal has a very weak spring that allows a vacuum-induced flow of coolant from the expansion tank back into the cooled-down pressure tank.

If a pressure cap is used on the expansion tank, the hot coolant and hot gases cannot escape until pressure rises to the rated pressure of the cap.

BUT, there is no reason to trap that pressure in that tank. That is why all the caps on all modern cars' expansion tanks do NOT have a pressure rating.

You can put a pressure-rated cap on the expansion tank, but it prevents the release of the hot gases and steam.

I'm happy that your car is running with an incorrect expansion tank cap.

But, I know what is correct. If the cap on your expansion tank is identified with a psi rating, it is not correct.

You are free to believe as you please.

Larry

good, short video on how a pressure cap works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JdDWWoX-70

pressure rated cap on the left, non-pressure rated cap on right

Just got the car back from the garage, and 7 months after purchase finally got to drive her, they couldn't find anything wrong with the cooling system other than the temp sensor in the tank is suspect so they ordered another from the US. Not sure about the fans so taking it easy at present. They did a couple of other things like changing the clutch fluid but now the bite point is too high so they'll have to adjust that and the exhausts are popping on lift off so maybe it needs a tune. I'll drive it over the weekend and post how I'm doing on Sunday.

Congratulations, glad to hear you are getting there and enjoy the weekend driving!

The temp sensor should be relocated to the block, this is a standard modification and I believe one of the original TSB's (Technical Service Bulletins).

Julian

quote:

I recently called around to a few Pantera shops, and they said run it sealed.

Would that be the vendor that has sold Windsor thermostats for our Cleveland engines?

Perhaps the vendor that told me, with all sincerity, that it is not necessary to have the ZF ring and pinion bolts safety wired?

Maybe the vendor that sold Lord-knows-how-many reproduction, "bolt-in" clutch master cylinders that had such cheap o-rings that they tended to dissolve and fall apart, sometimes within days of installation?

Perhaps the vendor who told me there are only two versions of the left and right side marker lights? In truth, each side marker corner has its own, unique design and they are marked with different part numbers. I've got all four if anyone needs photographic proof.

Or maybe the vendor that sold, for years, fiberglass front "L" bumpers that were about 2" narrower than the factory original unit?

I could go on....

Bottom line, our vendors are vital to our marque, but they are not always correct.

My 2¢

Larry

There are Ford Pantera manuals indicating the surge-pressure-shorter tank uses a 13# cap.

Those same manuals make no note of a pressure rating for the expansion tank, just calling it a cap.

The caps for the two tanks are listed with different part numbers.

The manual illustration clearly shows two different styles of caps.

Again, I am pleased your car runs fine with a pressure cap on the expansion tank.

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:..
I also seem to remember reading in the manual about the system being a completely sealed system..

I "think" the phrase sealed is from the historical perpestive that automotive coolant systems prior to the 70's did NOT have recovery systems and required periodical addition of coolant. Thus marketing came up with the phrase sealed to refer to the recovery system which was relatively new at the time the Pantera was introduced.

Installing a second pressure cap on the expansion (recovery) tank might be a good thing!. The pressure that might devolp in the recovery tank would result in a greater than atmospheric pressure on the top of the swirl tank's cap pressure seal and increase its lifting pressure.

Dean, I hope you have a great weekend driving.

No no no....every part of the front end makes an terrible noise, and I lost at a junction..scared me silly.....not happy!

do you mean the front suspension is noisy?

and I don't have a clue what "lost at a junction" would mean.

spun out?

understeer fail to negotiate a turn?

I am just doing research. I think I've figured it out.

The cap on the main tank (the one with the big hoses from the engine) has the pressure cap, no argument there.

The expansion tank, has a hole in the neck, so if a regular pressure cap is uses there, then YES, this is incorrect, as there will be no way for the coolant to flow up or down.

But if a sealed cap is used (cap with round rubber piece) then that doesn't impede the coolant and air from flowing in and out through the vent tube on the expansion tank. Look at the diagram pic you posted (#21).

The issue arises when you put a regular radiator cap on the expansion tank, which makes a seal BELOW the hole in the neck of the expansion tank. This keeps the system completely sealed and may cause pressure problems I would assume.

quote:

Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:

quote:

I recently called around to a few Pantera shops, and they said run it sealed.

Would that be the vendor that has sold Windsor thermostats for our Cleveland engines?

Perhaps the vendor that told me, with all sincerity, that it is not necessary to have the ZF ring and pinion bolts safety wired?

Maybe the vendor that sold Lord-knows-how-many reproduction, "bolt-in" clutch master cylinders that had such cheap o-rings that they tended to dissolve and fall apart, sometimes within days of installation?

Perhaps the vendor who told me there are only two versions of the left and right side marker lights? In truth, each side marker corner has its own, unique design and they are marked with different part numbers. I've got all four if anyone needs photographic proof.

Or maybe the vendor that sold, for years, fiberglass front "L" bumpers that were about 2" narrower than the factory original unit?

I could go on....

Bottom line, our vendors are vital to our marque, but they are not always correct.

My 2¢

Larry

There are Ford Pantera manuals indicating the surge-pressure-shorter tank uses a 13# cap.

Those same manuals make no note of a pressure rating for the expansion tank, just calling it a cap.

The caps for the two tanks are listed with different part numbers.

The manual illustration clearly shows two different styles of caps.

Again, I am pleased your car runs fine with a pressure cap on the expansion tank.

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:
I am just doing research. I think I've figured it out.

The cap on the main tank (the one with the big hoses from the engine) has the pressure cap, no argument there.

The expansion tank, has a hole in the neck, so if a regular pressure cap is uses there, then YES, this is incorrect, as there will be no way for the coolant to flow up or down.

But if a sealed cap is used (cap with round rubber piece) then that doesn't impede the coolant and air from flowing in and out through the vent tube on the expansion tank. Look at the diagram pic you posted (#21).

The issue arises when you put a regular radiator cap on the expansion tank, which makes a seal BELOW the hole in the neck of the expansion tank. This keeps the system completely sealed and may cause pressure problems I would assume.

quote:

Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:

quote:

I recently called around to a few Pantera shops, and they said run it sealed.

Would that be the vendor that has sold Windsor thermostats for our Cleveland engines?

Perhaps the vendor that told me, with all sincerity, that it is not necessary to have the ZF ring and pinion bolts safety wired?

Maybe the vendor that sold Lord-knows-how-many reproduction, "bolt-in" clutch master cylinders that had such cheap o-rings that they tended to dissolve and fall apart, sometimes within days of installation?

Perhaps the vendor who told me there are only two versions of the left and right side marker lights? In truth, each side marker corner has its own, unique design and they are marked with different part numbers. I've got all four if anyone needs photographic proof.

Or maybe the vendor that sold, for years, fiberglass front "L" bumpers that were about 2" narrower than the factory original unit?

I could go on....

Bottom line, our vendors are vital to our marque, but they are not always correct.

My 2¢

Larry

There are Ford Pantera manuals indicating the surge-pressure-shorter tank uses a 13# cap.

Those same manuals make no note of a pressure rating for the expansion tank, just calling it a cap.

The caps for the two tanks are listed with different part numbers.

The manual illustration clearly shows two different styles of caps.

Again, I am pleased your car runs fine with a pressure cap on the expansion tank.

Yes, in other words, the tall tank, #22 is vented to the atmosphere. It's ONLY purpose is to maintain a reservoir to top off the pressurized portion of the cooling system AND to catch expansion overflow from it.

It is kept at 1/2 full or 1/2 empty (depending on your perspective).

The cap is "optional" to it's operation. It will do the same job without it.

quote:

Originally posted by JFB #05177:
do you mean the front suspension is noisy?

and I don't have a clue what "lost at a junction" would mean.

Yes the suspension or the steering is making a terrible noise, and regarding " lost at a junction" I mean I made a left turn and the car ended up backwards...too much power whilst turning!

So I guess the car is no longer overheating?

On to the next challenge!

Rocky

quote:

they couldn't find anything wrong with the cooling system other than the temp sensor in the tank is suspect so they ordered another

First, does your shop know the proper place for the replacement sender IS NOT IN THE TANK? I hope so.

Second, what in Heaven's name were we trying to solve for the last 12 pages?

We mentioned the incorrect in-the-tank sender issue pages ago.

How did the "boiling over" cooling system suddenly and miraculously repair itself, apparently with nothing being done other than take it to a shop?

Was there EVER an overheating issue, or was it just a faulty sender/gauge.

I'm more confused than ever.

How does a system that is "boiling over" suddenly repair itself?

Larry

as for noisy front suspension, inspecting the bushings is fairly easy. If original bushings they could be dry rotted, if replacements, it might just be hard inserts.

besides breaking the rear end lose during hard throttle, I still remember the "first" time I had the rear end pass me due to lifting throttle in a hard curve.

Well, half of the thread is about a misunderstanding of cap descriptions. I never said I was running a "pressure cap" on my car, but a "sealed" cap, (like part #21 in the diagram) so my car is set up and running properly if I'm not mistaken (pressure cap on main tank, sealed cap on expansion tank).
We've agreed that putting another "pressure cap" on the expansion tank is not the way to go.

I went back and read somewhere the OP took his car to a shop and they suspected a sensor, and he's closely watching the car now, as well as watching the fans.

That's where things stand I believe.

Just to muddy the sender water, and maybe a smart electrical guy can correct my memory....

I have a back-up sender mounted in my swirl tank, and I had to run a separate ground from the tank body to chassis ground, as the tank was mounted with rubber hoses and a rubber standoff.

I just can't recall if no ground, therefore high (infinite) resistance made the sender read high or low. I am sure it read WAY off with no tank ground.

OK. You are getting at the crux of the situation here in my opinion. The OP has a couple of issues going here.



First off, I don't really think he understands much either mechanically or electrically. That's a big problem right there.

Second, the temp sender was taken out of the freakin' pressure tank for one reason by Detomaso. It just doesn't work there. Anyone getting that drift yet?

At best, it gives erratic readings. Tied to the original gauge with a 240 degree limit AND a Ford sender that doesn't match the Veglia gauge function precisely as it should, all it does is cause havoic.

IN ADDITION the OP has got a cap on the pressure tank that is not working. Take your pick of the possibilities why? The mind boggles.

This is what is causing the coolant to boil over. The pressure tank is not sealed.


WHY do you need to know how OR WHY the temp sender in the TANK doesn't work? It just doesn't.

This sado-masachistic crap about beating up everyone over this stuff has got to stop.


Take the freakin' thing out of the tank. Plug the tank. Install the sender into the engine where it belongs.


Put in the right Cleveland thermostat into the engine.

Now here is the really, really trick part...listen closely...PUT A 15 PSI CAP ON THE PRESSURE TANK THAT WORKS.


At the risk of being harsh THIS IS ALL CHILDS PLAY. If you can't do it as an adult, GET A CHILD TO DO IT FOR YOU.

If that doesn't work for you and you need more pain and humiliation, JOIN AN S&m CLUB, buy a nice whip AND BEG THEM TO BEAT THE CRAP OUT OF YOU!


This stuff has got to stop somewhere at some point?

Now if this is too harsh AND/OR to the point, theN I am sorry. Really, really sorry and makes me wonder if I am into S&M and just like to torture myself by reading these threads?

I don't think so, but I gotta' wonder?

Sealed cap
Pressure cap
Boiled over
Find no problems

I don't know? I always thought I understood the English language? Do you?

Did you ever see Nicholsons speech in "Carnal Knwoledge"? When she says yes, does it mean maybe or no?

Good thing I don't know Candice Bergen? What would she mean when she said "Hello"?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066892/

I have this vision of the OP laughing his a$$ off at how this has devolved into a very weird thread. And he's driving his car with no more cooling issues. Maybe it's time to end the thread.

I Jacked the car up off the ground last night to see if everything was connected..it was..so I took her for a test drive...I appear to have several small people banging hammers under the car....this is never a good sign, although it did'nt overheat. So I have sent away for a Yaris brochure whilst the pantera visit the garage once again for behavioral counselling , Elvis was wrong, he should have used a bigger gun

ps...Robbie...whats an OP ?

You.

The OP is the "Original Poster" - the person who started the thread.

I think everyone is wondering what, if anything, was done to fix the overheating condition, both the gauge readings, and the coolant "boiling over"?

It sounded serious at first, now it seems fixed. What did your mechanic do?

We just wanted to be sure our advice was helpful!

Rocky.

All the advice was extremely helpful and gave me a better understanding of my car, the initial concern regarding the overheating could possible of been down to the filler cap not being on properly allowing steam to escape, and with a dodgy temperature sensor reading 220 degrees it lead me to believe the problem was greater than it was, the mechanic evidently could find no further issues but I've still to see the fans operating so further investigation may be required. I have now the concern regarding the knocking noise under the car...it should like I'm running fast with a flat tyre so the car is being returned to the mechanic this afternoon. Part of the enjoyment of running classic cars is discussing the arising problems with fellow enthusiast and I thank everyone for their support.....meanwhile I'll drive the mustang for a while to remind me of the joys of driving a quiet car.....

ps....my name is still Dean...OP sounds like a medical term !

quote:

I have now the concern regarding the knocking noise under the car...it should like I'm running fast with a flat tyre so the car is being returned to the mechanic this afternoon.

Does the knocking noise occur when stationary or when moving? And does the sound increase in frequency and/or volume with speed? Have your mechanic make sure the U-joints are tight and secure. Also, check your rear wheel bearings. You can perform a basic check as outlined in steps 3 and 4 on the following "pre-purchase inspection checklist."
http://www.banzairunnerpantera...-purchase_chklst.htm

Speed makes no difference, The car runs and drives so well and everywhere I look it shows signs of recent work and maintainence...so I'm pretty confident it should be easy to diagnose and fix....I'll soon see!

I'm off to pick up the car today, apparently the mechanic is unsure what the knocking noise was, he tried severalthings and on the subsequent test drive the noise had disappeared. The mechanic asked if he could showcase his company with the car on his trade stand at a local car show. He told me there were 700 cars there but they may as well of been one as everyone was crowded around the Pantera, I've had two serious offers for the car although I had no intention of selling her but I'm going to give it some consideration if she lets me down again

quote:

if she lets me down again

From what the mechanic has reported, she hasn't let you down at all!!!!!

Overheating problem, no problem found...

Knocking noise problem, no problem found...

quote:

he tried severalthings and on the subsequent test drive the noise had disappeared.

Ah yes, the try-multiple-fixes-at-once technique.

Problem with that, as you now know, is you gain no wisdom into what was wrong. So should the issue arise later, you once again have to use the shotgun approach.

You should at least learn what your "mechanic" did so you have SOME idea of what was wrong.

Larry

Haha I hope he's not charging you for not fixing anything

quote:

Haha I hope he's not charging you for not fixing anything

Not to mention the free advertising.

Yes you are right...the car hasn't really let me down...it's mainly due to my lack of spannering ability....after £1000 bill I can finally get to enjoy it, just the windscreen to replace which is on back-order.

Can anyone help me to locate a new temperature sensor...I think it fit's into the expansion tank rather the the block

quote:

Originally posted by Pishadeperro:
Can anyone help me to locate a new temperature sensor...I think it fit's into the expansion tank rather the the block

quote:

Originally posted by Pishadeperro:
Can anyone help me to locate a new temperature sensor...I think it fit's into the expansion tank rather the the block

Not sure what you mean by locate. Do you need a replacement sensor or do you want to put a sensor in the expansion tank? You don't need a sensor in the expansion tank. It tells you nothing useful. The temp sensor that feeds the temp gauge needs to be located in the block.

Es no yo comprendo?

quote:

posted Jul 15, 4:07 AM Hide Post
Can anyone help me to locate a new temperature sensor...I think it fit's into the expansion tank rather the the block

Sigh......

I’ve reviewed the 15 pages on this thread. Here’s what has been noted about the location of the coolant temp sensor……..


Dean,
have you confirmed the temp sensor is located in the block? The stock location was - incorrectly - in the pressure tank.

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Hi Dean,
Here's where the temp sender SHOULD be located or moved to, in the block directly beneath the thermostat

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one day later, Dean posted:
the sensor is on the expansion tank and that was cool to the touch,

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A week later, Dean wrote:
they couldn't find anything wrong with the cooling system other than the temp sensor in the tank is suspect so they ordered another

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The temp sensor should be relocated to the block, this is a standard modification and I believe one of the original TSB's (Technical Service Bulletins).

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First, does your shop know the proper place for the replacement sender IS NOT IN THE TANK? I hope so.
Second, what in Heaven's name were we trying to solve for the last 12 pages?
We mentioned the incorrect in-the-tank sender issue pages ago.

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Take the freakin' thing out of the tank. Plug the tank. Install the sender into the engine where it belongs.

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And yet, Dean still is asking:

Can anyone help me to locate a new temperature sensor...I think it fit's into the expansion tank rather the the block

----------------

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him .......

Larry

Enough of the smart arse.....I was only asking a question as I understood from the link that originally it was fitted to the tank and mine has yet to be changed to the block...the only bloke I trust to do anything else on my car is still too busy with other pantera...I've tried taking it to others but have lost confidence in them. I've tried eating humble pie by explaining I'm and electrician without the necessary skills to do it myself, I've also gone to great pains to thank everyone for their help in this matter as I've enjoyed the process and the banter, but don't treat me like a f...ing idiot...if you've had enough of me posting don't read it or better don't answer

quote:

Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:
[QUOTE]

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him .......

Larry

...an oldie but a goodie!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRnGv9l8UD8

I luv the accient but how do you lead a 'house ta wadda'?

for sure onena' Sheena's best

quote:

Originally posted by Pishadeperro:
Enough of the smart arse.....I was only asking a question as I understood from the link that originally it was fitted to the tank and mine has yet to be changed to the block...the only bloke I trust to do anything else on my car is still too busy with other pantera...I've tried taking it to others but have lost confidence in them. I've tried eating humble pie by explaining I'm and electrician without the necessary skills to do it myself, I've also gone to great pains to thank everyone for their help in this matter as I've enjoyed the process and the banter, but don't treat me like a f...ing idiot...if you've had enough of me posting don't read it or better don't answer

I think you're fully capable of doing this. All you need is a plug with the correct threads. If I recall the wire is long enough that the sender can be relocated to the block. You might have to free it from the wire loom. After that the system will have to be topped off and possibly "burped". Depends on how fast you can pull the sender out and insert the plug and vice versa when you install the sender in the block. (I'm also an electrician!).

I think it's really a swap, no? Plug from block goes to tank, sender from tank goes to block?

Take it from me, you should try and do the sensor swap yourself.

It's harder waiting and finding people to help, and this is a relatively easy operation.

If you're lucky, the threads are the same in both locations, so you'll be able to pop the sensor off, thread the plug in as quickly as possible, and then install the sensor in the other location.

If the threads are different, the plug you can get at your local hardware store, and you'll need to find a sensor with the right threads to thread into the block.

You might have to extend the wire, but again, that's easy.

You can do this! The Pantera is a car you'll need to start to learn how to work on yourself.


This forum is great, and full of helpful people that just want to help you get your car running correctly. Sometimes though you need some thicker "internet skin" but we're here to help.

Dive in! You can't really screw anything up.

as for your question as to what sender will work with the gauge. (it gets complicated)
http://www.panteraplace.com/page205.htm

Ok, I think I'll order the original sender that fits in the tank...and the improved version that fits in the block, then I can see where and if it fits...then wire it accordingly as it's difficult to envisage what work is necessary until I get the bits in my hand

I'd just get the sensor that goes into the block, install it, and switch the wire over. Leave the old sensor in the tank as the plug.

Do you think there is just one type?

You want the original sender. ANY Pantera vendor has them. They are a Ford sender.

Very simple installation, one wire hook up.

YOU DO NOT need to turn this into some sort of NASA scientific event. Just put the sender into the engine where it belongs.

The system is good to 252 degrees with 50/50 anti-freeze and a 15 psi cap.

This IS NOT something that you need to be able to calculate in order to pass your PE licensing exam.

If you have the early Veglia gauge it will top the gauge out or come close to it. That DOES NOT indicate that the car is overheating.

If you have the later L gauge I believe it is a 260 and it will appear more reasonable on the gauge at full operating temps.

A lot of information here on the different senders available. It also depends on what gauge you have installed.
http://www.panteraplace.com/page205.htm

Pish, there is one sender but two possible Veglia gauges. '71-72= 0-220F; '73-up= 0-260F. The 260 gauge is far more valuable due to its extended range and (I think) has better stock calibration. Whichever gauge/sender you use, the assembly should be calibrated to your car for better accuracy. You do this with engine running and a trusted glass thermometer in the header tank and a handful of small resistors to temporarily patch into the line from sender to gauge. Write down the two sets of temps you'll get- the variance will be greater at one end or the other of the range. If you want the last bit of accuracy, a variable resistor can be used. Then you solder in a resistor giving the closest value to true. The two gauges are not interchangeable once you calibrate the system.

Not to load you up with possibilities, but with a stabilized temperature after driving a bit, turn on the headlights. If the gauge temp drops instantly & noticeably, there is a grounding problem somewhere in your 44 year old system. All the small-gauge grounding wires are 'daisy-chained' one to another so it will not necessarily be the water temp gauge ground wire.