spark timing

That could be someone's "Static Timing Mark".

I don't know what year your car is, or the configuration of the motor, but....

From a good friend of mine.....

quote:

The '71 engines are "different" from the '72 and later. '71 has quench chambers, 11:1 C/R (advertised), and a different camshaft. They run 6* initial advance and 800 rpm idle speed.

In '72, they had open chamber heads, 8.8:1 C/R (advertised), and a "hotter" camshaft. That cam was an attempt to regain some of the HP that was lost due to the change in combustion chamber design and the huge drop in C/R. Those engines run 16* initial advance and 1,000 rpm idle speed.

From the same source..... I won't say his name, but his initials are jb1490...



Rocky

The mark makes it easier to visualize & adjust the ignition timing for static/initial timing of 6 degrees BTDC when you're using a timing light to set the distributor. That was the timing for the Australian 351C, and may be the timing De Tomaso used for the 351W engines too. Those were the engines installed in the GT5-S. 6 degrees BTDC should be used with a distributor set-up to use the advance plate marked 15L.

The ignition settings of the factory engines have nothing to do with the engines compression ratio or the camshaft. Its a setting based on tailpipe emissions. All 351 Clevelands can use more initial advance than what the factory specified. I've set-up 1973-1974 Q code motors for 20° initial advance and more. The 351C LIKES lots of advance at idle. The real limitation is the effort required to crank-over the engine when it is hot. The higher the compression ratio, the harder it is to crank the engine when it is hot. I've set engines for optimum advance at idle only to find afterwards they wouldn't crank-start. DOH

As the engine's static advance is increased you have to close the carburetor butterflies more to lower the idle speed back to the proper rpm. This lessens the engine's propensity to run-on after the key is turned off. The intake manifold vacuum increases, thus the fuel/air mixture at idle becomes richer. Next you have to screw-in the idle jets to optimize them again. The idle improves. The engine's low rpm drivability, torque and throttle response improve. The engine feels peppier.

The best/classic ignition calibration for a 351C having OEM iron heads & flat top pistons is:

16° to 18° initial advance
20° centrifugal advance, all in by about 2800 rpm.
This equals 36° to 38° total advance
10° vacuum advance, connected to ported vacuum.
Advance at idle shall be 16° to 18° due to the initial advance setting, there is no vacuum advance at idle with ported vacuum.

This requires setting-up the Ford distributor to use the 10L centrifugal advance plate.

In general, even a high compression engine can be cranked-over when it is hot if the initial ignition advance is limited to 16° to 18° BTDC. That's why 16° to 18° initial plus 20° centrifugal is the "classic Ford" timing curve.

At the bottom of the page is a pictorial aid for timing the ignition based on which advance plate is being employed in the distributor. All of these settings provide 36° advance at WOT (WFO). Three of them provide 16° advance at idle.

If you have questions I'll be glad to try and answer them.

Thanks George !
I have a Unilite 3756701 distributor without vac equipment.
Will take my timing light and check ...

sorry , i'm wrong... on my engine it is paint marked the 0° ! had it confused not seeing TC and forgotten the 10° marking after TC... oeps. In fact i did see it by taken a picture...

The 351c likes the high initial advance. 16. You can run that with a Mallory without the vacuum advance.

The vacuum advance is for part throttle economy.

With todays pump fuels even all in by 2800 might make the engine ping? Maybe yes. Maybe no.

The engine itself will really come alive all in by something like 22 or 2300 but no way you can run it. It will detonate pretty badly.

Just for comparison if you were racing you would want a faster curve all in by 2,000 to 2,200 rpm.

Right there is why you would need 106 racing gas.

The Cleveland really shows it's potential under those conditions but on the street you need to compromise for pump gas.

Even the ported vacuum set up can give too much part throttle advance.

You have to experiment with it and with the gas you are going to regularly use.

I like the high initial and the 13L set up with the stiff advance springs. It works best for me. Seems a little contradictory I know, but does exhibit any issues at WOT even with that much total advance. I'm sure it has to do with my specific combination which is not typical at all of an iron Cleveland.

I do have the vinyl sleeve on the advance arm. That does take out a couple of degrees of total advance right there.

I'm running my 302 based 347 there also. Virtually the identical set up. No issues so far. Well almost identical. About 12 degrees initial on that one. Otherwise it idles too high.



I don't have any port vacuum to tap into with IDA carbs. Even getting manifold vacuum with them is a big deal and does have issues.

You are creating a small vacuum leak in order to get it on all 8 cylinders and the engine can be touchy on whether it likes, dislikes or tolerates that.

Race setups with IR manifolds are not going to be set up for intake manifold monitoring. They are run mostly a WOT anyway. The vacuum gauge at idle would just be used for diagnostic reasons of the engines state of health.

measure 26° at idle , 800 revs
going to 36° at 3300 revs
and with 5000 revs i measure 38°

i don't daire to go 6000 ??
wondering if it is going up to 40° ?

Experience is that the car runs strong up to 5500 revs and somewhat dys around there...
Ignition ? fuel starvation ? or can it simply be the cam design ?

according my documentation with the car i may expect the cam is a Crane Cams 133132, grind #278 H10.

http://www.cranecams.com/produ...oduct_detail&p=23841

Barry,

That first pic that you posted is from my '71, #1490. 6° was the "factory" setting, and that is what I have used for the last 128k miles on my never rebuilt original 351C. At the time that I placed the yellow mark on 6°, I did not own a dial-back timing light.

Rocky's posting of the three emissions placards is my pic also. If you look at the bottom right of those three placards, you will see a year to which the vehicle emissions comply.

The first two placards show 1971, but with two different initial timing settings, 6° and 10°. The 6° is from my '71 (build date 5/71), and the 10° is from a late '71 with a build date of 10/71. From what I have observed, the 6° was changed to 10° late in the '71 "production" year.

Also note that the distributor point dwell increased from 29°-24° to 34°, which indicates that the distributor was changed to dual points instead of the (earlier) single points distributor. This was still in the '71 "production" year.

The third (bottom) placard is for 1972, and shows 16°. The 1972 cars had the compression ratio lowered to 8.8:1 with open chamber heads, and the cam specs were changed.

As George pointed out, those initial timing settings were for tailpipe emissions, and not (necessarily) for performance.

John

quote:

Originally posted by Belgiumbarry:
measure 26° at idle , 800 revs
going to 36° at 3300 revs
and with 5000 revs i measure 38°

i don't daire to go 6000 ??
wondering if it is going up to 40° ?

Experience is that the car runs strong up to 5500 revs and somewhat dys around there...
Ignition ? fuel starvation ? or can it simply be the cam design ?

according my documentation with the car i may expect the cam is a Crane Cams 133132, grind #278 H10.

http://www.cranecams.com/produ...oduct_detail&p=23841

Is that a misprint of 26 degrees at idle?

That cam is a little hotter than a stock 72-4 CJ cam but not by much.

5500 can be the top rpm for a few reasons but it really should go into the mid 6000's.

Reasons being: timing is wrong. point setting is wrong. valve springs are wrong. choke isn't opening all the way. air cleaner needs changing. engine needs rebuild.

This business of the the timing ring slipping on the balancer is pretty common. Your car is old enough for it to be an issue.

As I recall, my stock cj was running out of breath somewhere above 5500. Maybe 5700?

I never played with the jetting on that carb. It was much easier to swap it and the intake manifold out to an Edelbrock and a 3300 Holley.

Even at that, 6000 was all I expected out of the engine.

The total advance is going to be the initial plus what the distributor mechanical advance is limited to.

If the 10L can be seen through the window then the total is 20 degrees and if it's 13L then 26 total.

16 degrees (+/-) makes the engine more responsive off of idle than 10 degrees does.

Getting a Cleveland through the emissions test is a bear. I haven't had to do it in a long time but I think the timing had to be set to about 0 and the rpm as low as you could get it without the engine stalling.

With that setting the engine would sound like a diesel and you had to push the car in and out of the test bay.

The Pantera was extra tough for one reason. It does not have an air pump. It was considered an import and import had an exemption from needing to be equipped with the pump BUT they still had to pass.

On most US engines in my opinion it is impossible or almost impossible to pass without the pump which lowers the numbers just enough.

These cars were so difficult to get through that there were several shops in Connecticut that would charge you $3500 to get the car through.

Thanks ! no mistake, 26° at idle !....and only 10° upp ( 36 total ) at around 3300 revs , and a total of 38 at 5000.
Engine starts perfect , even hot . So no indication of to much advance....Idles perfect at 800 revs.
Somebody must have setup the Unilite distributor in this way.. ?
Don't think it is a timing ring issue, as i have only + 10° advance between idle and 3300... ?

is TDC marked on the flywheel ?

I'm no expert but if the vacuum advance is connected to manifold instead of ported it would show higher timing at idle than the static setpoint. No?

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by T.Solo:
I'm no expert but if the vacuume advance is connected to manifold instead of ported it would show higher timing at idle than the static setpoint. No?

Steve

That's correct, however as soon as you crack the throttle open it will drop back 20 odd degrees until engine vacuum returns. Can be handy if you have a big cam and a automatic trans.

quote:

Originally posted by jb1490:

... 10° is from a late '71 with a build date of 10/71. From what I have observed, the 6° was changed to 10° late in the '71 "production" year ...

... increased from 29°-24° to 34°, which indicates that the distributor was changed to dual points instead of the (earlier) single points distributor ...

John & all. You may find this interesting. As I remember it, the M-code engines were all specified to have 6° distributor advance. As was the 1971 Q-code engine (Cobra Jet). The 1972 - 1973 Q-code engines were all specified to have 16° distributor advance, except for those installed in Cougars (they were 6°). And the 1974 Q-code was specified to have 20° distributor advance. It was the R-code engines, the 1971 Boss 351 and the 1972 351 HO, which were specified to have 10° distributor advance. I've been told by a few owners over the years that their Pantera had been factory equipped with an R-code engine. This seems to corroborate those claims. John, any chance that late 1971 Pantera has (or had) a solid tappet engine in it?

All of the Q-code engines installed in Panteras (and R-code too) should have dual point distributors. Out in the Mustang/Torino world its a little more hit and miss, but in general the Q-code engines mated to manual transmission had dual point distributors, those mated to automatics had single point distributors, but this was a little more unpredictable (and seldom reflected in tune-up manuals either).

I know this goes against the grain of some folks, but the M-code versions of the 351C 4V were low-buck entry level performance motors. They had the same crankshaft damper as the 2V engine, single point distributors like the 2V engine, they really weren't specified to rev beyond about 5000 rpm. The Q-code versions had a heavier crankshaft damper, dual point distributors, bigger carburetor. They were top-of-the-line performance motors in their era, and were meant to rev to about 6000 rpm.

quote:

Originally posted by Belgiumbarry:
Thanks ! no mistake, 26° at idle !....and only 10° upp ( 36 total ) at around 3300 revs , and a total of 38 at 5000.
Engine starts perfect , even hot . So no indication of to much advance....Idles perfect at 800 revs.
Somebody must have setup the Unilite distributor in this way.. ?
Don't think it is a timing ring issue, as i have only + 10° advance between idle and 3300... ?

You have a broken distributor. It may be just a disconnected advance spring, but it could be stretched out advanced springs, but the thing is broken. It is one explanation of why the car won't rev past 5500.

I had a similar scenario with an Accell distributor. In my case it was just the springs were stretched out to the maximum.

That was my first experience with Aceell crap. It was the last one too.

The next was a Mallory. Had problems with the advance curve with it. The problem was it wouldn't hold it.

I think you should just go the Ford Duraspark. That one I have not broken yet and Heaven knows that I sure have tried.

George likes the Duraspark I but either one works well.

quote:

John, any chance that late 1971 Pantera has (or had) a solid tappet engine in it?

George,

Don't know, but I will see if I can find out.

John

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

quote:

Originally posted by Belgiumbarry:
Thanks ! no mistake, 26° at idle !....and only 10° upp ( 36 total ) at around 3300 revs , and a total of 38 at 5000.
Engine starts perfect , even hot . So no indication of to much advance....Idles perfect at 800 revs.
Somebody must have setup the Unilite distributor in this way.. ?
Don't think it is a timing ring issue, as i have only + 10° advance between idle and 3300... ?

You have a broken distributor. It may be just a disconnected advance spring, but it could be stretched out advanced springs, but the thing is broken. It is one explanation of why the car won't rev past 5500.

I had a similar scenario with an Accell distributor. In my case it was just the springs were stretched out to the maximum.

That was my first experience with Aceell crap. It was the last one too.

The next was a Mallory. Had problems with the advance curve with it. The problem was it wouldn't hold it.

I think you should just go the Ford Duraspark. That one I have not broken yet and Heaven knows that I sure have tried.

George likes the Duraspark I but either one works well.

OK, i will have a look inside... WRONG CAR to have a bad distributor

This is one time when a Chevy would be ideal?

The mechanical advance is not returning to rest inside the distributor.

Weak, disconnected or stretched out advance springs will do that. It is very common in aftermarket distributors because they install light tension springs in them new, unlike the Ford distributors which have much heavier springs.

By contrast, Ford distributors would be all in around 5,000 rpm instead of 2,500 rpm, so the tension on those springs is about double what the aftermarket supplies.

My Mallory distributor as well as my Accell had what I would call "drag race" advance springs in them. That's the way they came new.

I went through this issue here when we lost leaded 103 octane gas in the pumps around 1975.

The Ford unit can be tuned to come all in 2500 to 2800 using one heavy spring and one light spring but the issue really is the quality of the metal used in the springs.

Ford's are very high durability while aftermarket sources them from "offshore". That target keeps moving. I suppose it's so that you can't use a killer satellite and zap them with a laser from space?

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
This is one time when a Chevy would be ideal?
......................

whatever with engine in front
now a walk at the sea with the nice weather for the "moment" , have a look this evening....

Easy to check the springs in the dizzy. Pull the cap and grab the rotor and twist it. You will feel it smoothly load up against spring pressure, and twist around about three quarter of an inch. With no slop back and forth. If you have another car that has a dizzy and runs well, feel that and compare it to yours. That will give you a good idea of what it should feel like. Quick and easy.

Yes, got it out and indeed , that mechanism doesn't rotate smooth, either hard and uneven.
Springs are intact .
There's alot of free play before spring tension comes in and than only a bit under tension up till the centrifugal weights hit the preset max. Explains why i only had 10° up .So we set 36° , and give us 26° at idle.
Going to shop to compare mine with a new one.
I do not see clear what's wrong ?

It could be as Doug says that the springs are stretched/and or disconnected. It could just need the shaft lubricated which is a common fault. Either way you need to crack it open and take a look see. Mechanical advance is pretty simple so the problem will be obvious once you take a look.

quote:

Originally posted by Belgiumbarry:
Yes, got it out and indeed , that mechanism doesn't rotate smooth, either hard and uneven.
Springs are intact .
There's alot of free play before spring tension comes in and than only a bit under tension up till the centrifugal weights hit the preset max. Explains why i only had 10° up .So we set 36° , and give us 26° at idle.
Going to shop to compare mine with a new one.
I do not see clear what's wrong ?

Look at the tabs where the springs attach to hub. The springs should be mounted to little arms.

You should be able to bend those enough to take the slack out of the advance springs.

The concern for me is why would they already be bent so much now? The most likely answer is that the springs are stretched.

You may not be interpreting what you are seeing as the springs being stretched because you have nothing else to compare them to.

The tension arms that they connect to can not possibly be that thin and weak.

The simple fix is to buy new distributor springs from Summit. They come in a kit form. You do not want to use the thin wire, low tension springs.

Those are the ones that stretch out. You also need to bend the arms in the distributor so that there is a slight tension on the spring to start off with.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MSD-84...em2a3872f405&vxp=mtr

This isn't about me or my issues but you are experiencing exactly the problems I had with both the Accell and the Mallory Unilight distributors that I tried.

yes, the mechanism is very simple but i can hardly rotate the plate by hand. I see alot of tolerance in the weights rotation pins , even the small ( delrin, teflon ? ) bushings are still there.Instead of pushing them outwards i see them first going sideways which is the tolerance they have ....

Ofcourse the mechanisme is ment to work the other way , it are the weights who push the plate with revs ....but i sure remember me from other distributors that one could rotate it easely against the springs pressure till stop.
Not mine here.
Trying to find a new one... shop hasn't it in stock , takes a week...

At least you found the issue.

Make sure that you check the new distributor before you put it in.

You will at least want to know how it was set up new.

I have found distributors where the spring length is too long new. It's like they put in the wrong springs.

You want the limiting tab to be against the wall of the travel slot and be able to travel the entire length of the slot. That is the mechanism that controls the entire amount of mechanical advance the distributor delivers.

The springs control the rate of advance. If the springs are not the right length then they counter act that mechanism.

new one orderd in our "speedshop" , a garage specialised in US cars , they have deliverys every week ... i asked 20° so to set idle 16 , max 36 at around 3000 revs.

Think somewhere in the US somebody is making my package

Thanks to everybody for the help , glad to be a member !

Happy to have helped in some small way.

Glad it worked out and now you know how a dizzy works.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraWanabe:
Glad it worked out and now you know how a dizzy works.

yes, searching a bit i've seen for the first time you guys call it dizzy

We call it "delco"

got the new dizzy today and installed.Perfect , 14 ° idle, 36 at 3300 revs. So i could go 16/38 ??

The new one has a different advance mechanic and the max is to be installed with some plastic keys marked the wanted ° .There was no kit keys/springs included so i kept the fabricators choice.My old one hasn't that , the max to be installed with the plate out of the distributor.
So Mallory has improved it in the years

Installing was not a direct hit...think it's the tolerance with the allen key shape oil pump drive shaft.I tryed a key in them, old one had some play , new one was rather difficult to get in.... but i managed with some patience and push....

me happy !

Why not go for an electronic conversion (which is what I did)?

Pertronix

quote:

Originally posted by Kid:
Why not go for an electronic conversion (which is what I did)?

Pertronix

Kid, it is semi electronic. There are no breaker points if that is what you mean.It's a optisch eye go gives the pulses. The old one also , so i had nothing to change... just plug in the 3 wires.

quote:

Originally posted by Belgiumbarry:
got the new dizzy today and installed.Perfect , 14 ° idle, 36 at 3300 revs. So i could go 16/38 ??

The new one has a different advance mechanic and the max is to be installed with some plastic keys marked the wanted ° .There was no kit keys/springs included so i kept the fabricators choice.My old one hasn't that , the max to be installed with the plate out of the distributor.
So Mallory has improved it in the years

Installing was not a direct hit...think it's the tolerance with the allen key shape oil pump drive shaft.I tryed a key in them, old one had some play , new one was rather difficult to get in.... but i managed with some patience and push....

me happy !

38 degrees is a lot of advance these days with the current pump gas.

36 should be maximum and even 34 or 35 would still be ok with total advance.

Most of the Clevelands are more responsive with about 16 degrees initial advance.

Depending on what you have for ignition besides the distributor, the engine can be difficult for the battery to turn the engine over fast enough for it to start.

There are ignition controllers like the Ford Duraspark and the Pantera-Electronics ignition that both retard the ignition when turning the engine over to start to make it easier to start.

I am happy for you that the basic issue has been corrected.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

quote:

Originally posted by Belgiumbarry:
got the new dizzy today and installed.Perfect , 14 ° idle, 36 at 3300 revs. So i could go 16/38 ??

The new one has a different advance mechanic and the max is to be installed with some plastic keys marked the wanted ° .There was no kit keys/springs included so i kept the fabricators choice.My old one hasn't that , the max to be installed with the plate out of the distributor.
So Mallory has improved it in the years

Installing was not a direct hit...think it's the tolerance with the allen key shape oil pump drive shaft.I tryed a key in them, old one had some play , new one was rather difficult to get in.... but i managed with some patience and push....

me happy !

38 degrees is a lot of advance these days with the current pump gas.

36 should be maximum and even 34 or 35 would still be ok with total advance.

Most of the Clevelands are more responsive with about 16 degrees initial advance.

Depending on what you have for ignition besides the distributor, the engine can be difficult for the battery to turn the engine over fast enough for it to start.

There are ignition controllers like the Ford Duraspark and the Pantera-Electronics ignition that both retard the ignition when turning the engine over to start to make it easier to start.

I am happy for you that the basic issue has been corrected.

thanks ! so i keep it just under 36°. Must have a look what i have for ignition besides the distributor... don't know But even with the initial 26° given by the broken one, starting was perfect ....never a problem.Yes, after long parking ( weeks) i must start a few times and pedal-pump the gas ... but from there just touching the key and the engine spins.
Ok, let's have a look what's more in there ...

quote:

Originally posted by Belgiumbarry:

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

quote:

Originally posted by Belgiumbarry:
got the new dizzy today and installed.Perfect , 14 ° idle, 36 at 3300 revs. So i could go 16/38 ??

The new one has a different advance mechanic and the max is to be installed with some plastic keys marked the wanted ° .There was no kit keys/springs included so i kept the fabricators choice.My old one hasn't that , the max to be installed with the plate out of the distributor.
So Mallory has improved it in the years

Installing was not a direct hit...think it's the tolerance with the allen key shape oil pump drive shaft.I tryed a key in them, old one had some play , new one was rather difficult to get in.... but i managed with some patience and push....

me happy !

38 degrees is a lot of advance these days with the current pump gas.

36 should be maximum and even 34 or 35 would still be ok with total advance.

Most of the Clevelands are more responsive with about 16 degrees initial advance.

Depending on what you have for ignition besides the distributor, the engine can be difficult for the battery to turn the engine over fast enough for it to start.

There are ignition controllers like the Ford Duraspark and the Pantera-Electronics ignition that both retard the ignition when turning the engine over to start to make it easier to start.

I am happy for you that the basic issue has been corrected.

thanks ! so i keep it just under 36°. Must have a look what i have for ignition besides the distributor... don't know But even with the initial 26° given by the broken one, starting was perfect ....never a problem.Yes, after long parking ( weeks) i must start a few times and pedal-pump the gas ... but from there just touching the key and the engine spins.
Ok, let's have a look what's more in there ...

I would limit total to 35-36 and set initial (without vacuum connected) to 15-16 and leave it at that.

Clevelands really shouldn't be set with a timing light though, just checked to see what the final setting was and recorded.

The timing should be set with a vacuum gauge. You should keep advancing the distributor until the engine rpm stops rising, set it there, readjust the idle set screw on the carburetor down, then go back and see what the timing light says it is. Usually that will be around 16.

Make sure the choke is fully off when you do that also.

Panteras are just a pain to do this to because of the location of the distributor. Such is life.



You probably have the CJ engine with the open chamber heads and dished pitons.

It is the high compression engines, around 11:1 or so that have issues re-starting when they are hot because of the initial advance.

Sometimes the cable to the starter gets so hot you will see it smoking.



I doubt that Shelby's people did anything with that engine at all except pull it out and install the Dodge engine in it. Then put the original stock engine back in it when they were done playing around with it.

It's probably all stock from Detomaso in that respect?

The Pantera-Electronics ignition is a worthwhile upgrade. It will fire fouled plugs and as a result give the engine the opportunity to clean them up, it gives you a noticeably hotter spark than the MSD 6a does, it retards the ignition when the engine is trying to start to make it easier, it shuts off the A/C compressor then also. It runs a box coil and gets rid of the coil in a can which is a big improvement also.

There are a bunch of ancillary benefits with it as well.

Works with any distributor.


Keep an eye out for changes in the ignition performance with the new Mallory distributor. They are still prone to advance spring failure like just occurred with the old one.

Now you know the symptoms to look for?

i have no magic box in there, only a coil in can and a resistor.
Just made a test drive , max 14 initial, max 36 all in, and again there are some "misfires" ? little hesitations , once above 5000 rpm.
"
Gonne see now what "initial" , according my timing light , the engine would like with the vacuum method.


e voilà , again according my timing light , engine spins best idle at 26° ! ???
Is my light 10° off ? balancer 10° off ???
gonna try another light ....


and yes ! light is wrong ???( new one )have a old one with no advance install , painted the 16° mark and there it is ... as the new one gives 26. Or do old cars only like old timing lights ?

I don't think the misfires are distributor related now.
You could look at all of the plugs and see what they look like.
You could be blowing carbon off of them that has built up on them and the valves.
You need to drive it but don't just take it out and go 150 for a couple of miles.
If it is carbon then that will just melt it and it will appear as a glaze over everything.

You now need to examine all of the vacuum plumbing and look for leaks.

Look at the brake booster too. You need to test it to see if it holds pressure. It could have a small leak in the diaphram and the misfires could be coming from a vacuum leak somewhere in the system.

If all of that checks out then it may be time to pull off the heads and reseat the valves.

These valves are not like the current 4 valve per cylinder overhead cam engines.

Those engines will go several hundred thousand miles without any need to reseat the valves.

The Cleveland really needs to be looked at for that around 70 to 80 thousand miles.

thanks again ! test drive for tomorrow, must get the grandkids ...stupid coincidense, broken distributor and a bad timing light ( made in the USA ) ..so i was driving 16 initial, 26 all in , which i measured 26,36

The 26 will be the reason engine died pulling around 5000 ??

Car has only 10 thousand miles....

quote:

Originally posted by Belgiumbarry:
thanks again ! test drive for tomorrow, must get the grandkids ...stupid coincidense, broken distributor and a bad timing light ( made in the USA ) ..so i was driving 16 initial, 26 all in , which i measured 26,36

The 26 will be the reason engine died pulling around 5000 ??

Car has only 10 thousand miles....

Sure. 26 total will kill the power big time. You need at least 32 to 33 and even that will take power out of the engine.

You would ONLY use 32-3 if you had big compression ratio like 11:1 and it would only be to keep the gas from detonating without a spark from the plugs. It isn't what you would want to do at all.

36 total is what you are aiming for.

You will see the difference.

worse memory now... i changed a good OEM running engine in my track 928 to IDA48's.. just for the fun and see what i could gain...my theorie was much better breathing....never got it better then with the injection... and dismantled the engine .For THAT i bought the new timing light...so , if it was fault from the beginning , i always run with 10° ignition advance sort ! no wonder....

indeed great difference ! pulls hard and even.
Will wait for longer test drive after tech inspection this week... i'm no more 100% in order with Belgian law so better to wait .Upon now i was driving the UK plates & registration from the former owner, but lately they look for forain license plates.From now on forbitten unless you work at that country and have a official income from there ...... Yes , they search everything not to miss some taxes so they can waste it still more !

Programable ignition
If you were running a full programable ignition what would a ignition curve look like?
Anders

Belgiumbarry, you may know my view already, but here goes. You cannot time your engine based on advice from others, you have to buy that vacuum gauge, do the testing, listen for detonation etc. as my book describes. Only then will your engine be optimized and live long. The initial 16 and total 34-36 are good starting points though, but they're only that. And remember, if in doubt, use less timing, that won't kill your engine.

quote:

Originally posted by No Quarter:
Belgiumbarry, you may know my view already, but here goes. You cannot time your engine based on advice from others, you have to buy that vacuum gauge, do the testing, listen for detonation etc. as my book describes. Only then will your engine be optimized and live long. The initial 16 and total 34-36 are good starting points though, but they're only that. And remember, if in doubt, use less timing, that won't kill your engine.

Mikael, think i buy your book and read it this summer on the boat in south France

So , yes, i dialed a degree back. Gonne see first my plugs also, been running 26 all in, instead 36 , could have fouled them ??
Today tech inspection done and got 1 red point ... steel brake lines in front ...so no great problem to solve. Isn't from me, must have come this way from the USA owner and is forbidden in Belgium.. they like more plastic !!!

If you had a Pantera-Electronics ignition it would clean them right up. Saves a lot of now unnecessary labor.

can't get a sharper view with my "kodak" but gives a good idea of color.. is this right ?? wa do you think ??

It looks right, but can't say before it's determined if the plug has right heat number. How to tell diff between mixture color and heat range color is in the book...

quote:

Originally posted by No Quarter:
It looks right, but can't say before it's determined if the plug has right heat number. How to tell diff between mixture color and heat range color is in the book...

give me a hint..give me a hint
according what i found on the net that color is the best !
aren't we all running Autolite's 25 ???

It's like other things, simple on the surface, complicated if you want to be sure. If your plugs are too cold they foul up despite a too lean mixture. Here's a paste of that short section of my book, hope it helps:
-------------------
Spark plug reading

Reading spark plugs is another window into the engine, to what goes on in there. Or to put it a bit more philosophically, the plugs are the windows to the soul of the engine. It's an important methodology because it can tell you so much, but it's also a difficult methodology, because it can easily be misinterpreted, especially with the bad gas we are subjected to today. To read the plugs I’ll discuss the following three steps:

1. Getting the proper heat range plug
2. Reading plugs for engine problems
3. Reading plugs to help tune the engine

The biggest challenge in reading plugs is that if you read a plug and it looks rich, there are two possible causes. One is that the plug itself is too cold while the jetting of the carb is fine, the second is that the plug is the correct heat range, but the carb is jetted too rich. These two scenarios require very different remedies, so it's critical to find out which it is.

On 1. Getting the proper heat range plug
If your engine is stock, you can read in the manuals which plugs to use. If they read rich or lean it's because the carb needs tuning. But be careful if you change plug brand, make sure the translation from the old brand's heat range to the new is accurate. Don't trust the guy in the local shop selling it to you; it could be that he sells you what he has on the shelf.

If your engine is a performance engine, having improper heat range plugs can kill the engine. If in doubt, throw them out and buy new ones, because plugs are cheap.

If your engine is stock with the addition of a nitrous system, you have to go two heat ranges colder, the same for a blown engine. Remember that on American spark plugs, the higher the number, the hotter the plug, while on European and Japanese plugs it's the other way around.

It's better to have too cold a plug than too hot. So if in doubt, go for the colder one. When it then constantly fouls, and you know your engine is in good tune, buy the next hotter range until it doesn't foul anymore. So what's bad about a hot plug? It sounds great, ‘hot’ is generally a good word and it sounds like it could aid combustion. But if it's too hot the electrodes burn away too fast, and even worse it can glow red hot and cause pre-ignition/detonation which can kill your engine. Having too cold a plug doesn't include such risks; the only risk is that the plugs foul.

So here's how to find the right plugs if your engine is not stock. Drive a while on the freeway (remember that new plugs may take 500 miles to get their color). If the engine from time to time pings or detonates, try colder plugs until it goes away. If not, then stop somewhere safe and pull the plugs. If they are really black, try hotter plugs until that condition goes away. When you get to the right heat range plug, there will be one tell-tale indication that can't be confused with carb adjustment. When the heat range is right, there will be a narrow bluish ring around the electrode, approximately 1mm from the tip. If the heat range is right and the carb mixture is right you'll be able to see it right away, but if the heat range is right and the carb mixture is too rich, you’ll have to clean the plug first.

Always buy copper plugs or similar, as their effective heat range is wider, so they're more forgiving if you don't have the exact right heat range, and even more important, they can better handle the different chores of keeping the plugs clean when idling and not getting too hot when accelerating full throttle. Platinum plugs are fine in modern fuel-injected cars, but will quickly foul in a carbureted car because they demand a 100% perfect mixture at all times, which even the best-tuned carburetor simply can’t deliver.

On 2. Reading plugs for problems
Yes, I know, it's not fun looking for problems. But if there are problems, they have to be remedied before you can tune the engine. Let's try to look at the serious symptoms one at a time:
• Electrodes are melted: Over-hot condition, the mixture way too lean. Fix immediately or expect to kill the engine on the next run down the track if it's not already dead
• Electrodes are bent or broken: Mechanical interference of the worst kind. Did you just put high dome pistons in it? Or longer thread plugs? If you find that the gap between the electrodes tends to decrease over time, they could be just kissing the pistons at high rpm
• The plug looks wet: If it's gasoline, this can normally be fixed by tuning the carb (smell it), but if it's oil, forget about tuning, you need to rebuild your engine first
• Small bubbles on center electrode and a shiny look on the side electrode and porcelain: Too hot plug, see, see On 1 above
• Small black or silver deposits on the porcelain: This is either bad or very bad, it's a sign of detonation. If it's black, it is the carbon deposits that are in every combustion chamber that have been rattled loose and are then melted onto the porcelain. Remember that detonation is like hitting the piston with a hammer. If it's silver-like it's even worse, then it's part of your piston being thrown all over the combustion chamber, maybe it's time for a rebuild...
• Plugs look different: At the start you have to pull all plugs, not just one. Later when it comes to fine-tuning and you know you don't have fuel distribution problems, one plug will be enough. If you pull all plugs (and remember which spark plug goes where) and see differences, this has to be addressed. It could be idle mixture or jetting that needs to be changed on one side. If some plugs look much leaner than the rest there could be a vacuum leak close to them. I had a boat with a blower and a single Holley Dominator. Cylinders 1 and 8 were always leaner than the rest. I tried turning the Dominator 90 degrees, I modified the intake manifold, I tried all sorts of jet combinations in the Dominator, but none of it helped the situation. In the end I bit the bullet, bought two smaller Holley blower carbs and an adapter for them to sit on top of the blower, did some jetting, and only then were all eight cylinders the same

On 3. Reading plugs to help tune the engine
So with the proper heat range plugs and no serious problems, we can start reading the plugs to help us tune the engine. The ideal plug will look something like this: The porcelain is chocolate color (leaded fuel) or very light brown, almost white (unleaded fuel), the tips of the electrodes (center electrode and side electrode) are grey; the rest of the side electrode is straw color. There will be some deposits on the plug, but only dry and low gloss, no shiny and no wet deposits. And you can see the narrow bluish ring around the electrode, approximately 1mm from the tip, the strongest indicator for having the right heat range plugs.

If the mixture is too rich the plug will be sooty brown/black. If the tips of the electrodes are grey, then the plug is still firing, so it's a mixture issue, but if the electrode tips are also sooty brown/black, the plug doesn't fire every time, and that has to be fixed before the plug can be properly read. The sooty brown/black stuff may disappear when the plugs start firing again. If it's only one or two plugs looking like this, it's very likely an ignition issue that has to be solved first.

If the mixture is too lean, and you use leaded gas, the porcelain will be all white and the center electrode tip can be white as well. If you use unleaded gas, things are more difficult to interpret, because an engine in perfect tune will almost not color the porcelain. So a lean looking plug could be alright. Examine that plug even closer, because if the engine is running lean, you definitely want to know about it and remedy it. Look for a white center electrode, signs of overheating like bubbles and burnt electrodes to help find a too-lean condition.

Since we’re trying to build a performance car more than an economic daily driver, I recommend again to go on the rich side. And since it's difficult to see the difference between okay and lean when using unleaded gas, that's another reason to go a little too rich; it gives you peace of mind. So my recommendation is to be a little rich, have plugs that are somewhat sooty brown, at least not white. Then you know you're alright and you have a margin of error on your side.
-----------------------
Good luck with it

The plug is running clean and on the lean side. For a street car, leave it all alone. It's close enough for what you want.

No oil deposits. Engine is tight.

You really can't read them if they were not changed before you did the ignition change though.

You really need to put in a new set of plugs and do it again with them.

Original plug was a Motorcraft AF-32. I don't know where the Autolite crosses over.

It may not be the exact equivelent. The heat range could be wider, or shorter.

Motorcrafts tend to have a narrower heat range.

An AF42 will also work for you to but it is a hotter plug and I wouldn't go to it unless you were showing some signs of plug fouling in city driving conditions.

The 32 tends to clean up within about 100 yards of acceleration into high speed. Sometimes sooner.

If you run the car up to speed (100mph or so) then step off of the accellerator, you might hear the engine blowing carbon off of the plugs and the valves.

It isn't just the plugs that need to be cleaned up, it's the combustion chambers and valve deposits also.

On my plugs on the ceramic insulator on the plug, you can actually see the dividing line between the intake valve side and the exhaust side.

It's like looking at the moon half full. There is light and dark.

Plugs really should be indexed where the tip of the plug electrode points at the intake valve. There is at least 7-10hp to be picked up there.

The stock iron heads have tapered seats for the plugs and I don't know anyone who makes spark plug shims for that.

The aluminum heads use a different plug. It is flat and uses a washer. Those you can shim to index the plug electrodes.



I would put in a new set of plugs drive the car then read the plugs.

To really read plugs for mixture strength there are a bunch of things you need to do as a procedure that is difficult to do on public roads without getting arrested.


My Sony Alpha on Macro sees things that you can't with the naked eye. For stuff like this it's unreal. It would see the little beads from the fuel on the electrodes.

You need a magnifying glass to see that with your eyes.

quote:

aren't we all running Autolite's 25 ???

I run the MME recommended race plugs. Sounds good, running race plugs . Gotta go for a drive soon! Spring, I'm waiting for you...

quote:

Originally posted by No Quarter:

quote:

aren't we all running Autolite's 25 ???

I run the MME recommended race plugs. Sounds good, running race plugs . Gotta go for a drive soon! Spring, I'm waiting for you...

You can call any plug a "race plug" if you choose.

What I found on my A3 Ford heads is that the plug recommended by the engine builder, which was a Champion N-8, had a race tip electrode and was ridiculously cold.

1) I am convinced that any "Ford" based engine needs an extended tip electrode. They call them "J" tipped electrodes

This is necessary to get the spark out into the air stream.

2) the Champion N-8, is a racing tip. Doesn't extend into the air stream at all.

3) aluminum heads WITH Weber ida's like a plug that is hotter than what the iron head likes.
I wound up with NGK BP5E. It sure helps with resisting the fouling that you CAN get caused by starting a cold engine with no chokes.

They run beautifully clean BUT I have to admit that during this most recent process of getting the timing and the plug range right I did add the Pantera-Electronics ignition brain.

Jon has got a nice short video on his site that shows the ignition firing a fouled plug (no I didn't give him one of my fouled plugs) and then in a matter of a second or two, the spark has cleaned the fouling off of the plug.

That is on the bench and without the aid of the air flow through the combustion chamber that also aids in cleaning off the plug.

You should visit the website and watch the video. It's like a 10 second video.

After you do, you WILL WANT ONE!


So what I am saying here is I can not scientifically identify my solution as having the right plug or adding the ignition brain because I did it at the same time. Shame on me!

http://pantera-electronics.com...files/FouledPlug.MOV

autolite 25 corresponds Motorcraft AF42
stock is AF32...
so i'm running a colder plug ?

In Motorcraft the 32 is cooler than the 42.

Here in the US the 42 usually goes in the 2v carb car like the LTD station wagon and the 32 in the sportier cars with the 4v.

If you go one step colder on the plug you have there will be less white on the electrode. That is probably the correct plug for the car.

You need to be careful with the cross over plug chart now though.

Someone at Motorcraft made a mistake and said that the AF-32 is equal to the AF-42, which it is not.

Unfortunately virtually every spark plug company revised their listings to agree with Motorcrafts. With one exception.

The ONLY chart that is accurate now that I have found is by Champion.

As far as I can tell, the plug that I wound up with is half way in between the 32 and the 42 range.

i'm not there yet...went today to the harbor and had again that problem : car is pulling like a torque monster up till 4000 rpm and beyond that hesitation, no misfires, just running lousy.To rich when the secondarys come in play ?? ( Edelbrock )as i see very dark exhaust tips and sure no oil consumption.
I had changed the secondary jets to a # larger but could have been mislead as i had at that time a malfunctioning distributor...

Can it run so messy beyond 4000 rpm when to rich on secondarys ?

Can I just suggest backing off the timing by around five degrees and then take it for a drive and see how it goes? If it doesn't work just move it back. You won't need to do it with a timing light. Just mark where the dizzy is on the dizzy and the intake and just turn it counter clockwize (I think from memory) about 2cm and re-tighten the bolt. It may just be too much advance and this is an easy way to check.

You can do this while the engine is running and you will hear the engine idle slightly slower so you know you are backing off the timing(idles up when advancing). Just make sure to use a rag when you grab the distributor cap because if your ignition is leaking it will give you a nasty boot.

good idea ! i will try it.
Normaly, all advance is in by 4000 , and running strong, so that would mean that the # of advance ,working perfect at 4000, is to much beyond that ?? ( don't have vac advance )
one should have a dialing knob on the dash for advance... sure in a Pantera !

There is a dash mounted adjustable advance made by MSD. That was one of the few MSD items that I really liked.
I don't know if it can be adapted to your ignition? Maybe?

http://www.msdignition.com/Pro..._Timing_Control.aspx

You should have tested the engine for maximum advance total and at what rpm that occurs.

34-36 degrees total all in at 4,000 rpm should not be any kind of an issue.

Every engine will be a little different. One might like 34, another 36.

The issue ususally is how fast the advance gets to the maximum.

On a drag race car total advance all in by 2,200 to 2,500 is optimizing the car.

In my experience you can not run that rapid of an advance with the pump gas we now have available to us.

An Edelbrock carb has a mechanical secondary. I don't like them. They have to be set perfectly to work right. It is very easy to have the symptoms of over carburetion with them as a result.

What you can do is disconnect the rod to the secondary butterflies, wire them closed so they can not open then run the car and see how it responds.

If it runs better up past 4,000, then that is pointing at the secondaries as the issue.

You need to read the plugs.

The color you are looking for on the electrode is a medium brown with a distinctive rust tint to it.

Get the plugs to look like that with just the primaries connected. Then work on the secondaries.

I don't know what the jetting should be on an Edelbrock. On a Holley that's a different story.

It could well be that you have enrichened the secondaries more that the engine can use.

This is the yacht harbor BRESKENS at the entry of the river SCHELDE towards ANTWERP.



May have found something : pulled quick the driver side plugs this morning , and 3 are dry dark brown but 1 is black and wet ... gonne try new plugs this evening. Bad plug or fouled to almost not working with the bad distributor ?

Change the plugs. There is only one ignition system I know of that will fire and clean up fouled plugs.
That's the Pantera-Electronics. The Ford, Petronix or the MSD will not fire fouled plugs.
You might want to use the AF-42 Motorcraft plugs right now until you have the other issues solved.
It won't foul up as quickly around town.
On the other hand it probably will work a little like an rpm limiter above 6,000 rpm.
It's a little hot for that engine with 36 degrees of advance BUT you will hear them blowing some of the carbon off of the valves if they are loaded up.
AF-32's are really what you want when the engine is right.

i had indeed a fouled plug on the second cilinder drivers side looking from the rear... so i changed the complete drivers side ( had only 4 new plugs Autolite 25 ) and after beeing garaged long time ( BMW CS adventures ) i tryed it yesterday...never feeled that car so pulling up to 6000 rpm ! problem resolved i think..what i learned, don't look at a plug the most easy to pull... you must check them all !
and yes, perhaps i need a set hotter... in daily traffic we can't get them keeping "clean"

I am happy that your issues were ignition and they are now resolved.

I'm not getting commission from Jon Haas, owner of Pantera-Electronics but go to his website and look at the video of his ignition system firing and CLEANING the fouled plug.

As far as I know, it's the ONLY ignition system that does that.

If you had it in the car, you WOULD NOT have had to change ANY plugs. Consider that?

and I'd still have eyebrows

I like your glasses.

4V,

I think you have New York Doug and me (Calgary Doug) mixed up. I made the comment about singing my eyebrows off. And that was when I was in my twenties and considered myself immortal. I'm a lot wiser, more careful and cautious nowadays.

Doug M

Well remember, it seems like anyone who has set up their own Webers at one time or another has been without their eyebrows.

When you are without eyebrows, you look surprised all of the time OR people presume you can play the banjo? Either way, people think you are a little "funny"?

I hate when that happens?

did a nice trip with wifey and must say it's stays OK can pull very strong up 6000 rpm .
BUT... now i must focus on the carb i think .. mostly, when i schift up, there's a hesitation, some lean spot ? as if you drive a 2 gears automatic, for a second or 2 searching, then going full power ahead..

Very difficult to diagnose from a distance but make sure that the accelerator pump lever is adjusted correctly.

Holleys are more adjustable than Webers are, but it could be a few things, including too slow of a power valve, or too big of a carb?

i will have to experiment... carb is a new 650 Edelbrock .. so should work. I already played with the jets, not the springs witch work as power valves ! i have the set... time to play

had no time yet , but think i have to try stiffer springs , so they react more easely against the vacuum on the other side of the plungers.No vacuum should be up, freeing the jets holes from a "big" rod to a "small" rod , and the remeaning opening( = fuel) is larger...even now that car can already be called thursty

did a little rally today and car was pulling strong on the "bigger" roads, but on the smaller , sure when i got trapped behind a slower competitor , i had the feeling i'm running to rich , even got some stals at neutral.

I have the Autolite's 25... what should i try first , hotter plugs or downsize jets ?

If you have a Edelbrock get yourself a jet and rod kit, really worth the money. I had an AFB Carter which the Edelbrock is based on and the strip kit was really good. The rods allow you to tune it quite specifically to your engine. Some rods will allow more fuel at cruise and relatively less under power or vice versa depending on engine requirements. And it is so easy and quick to change.

i have the jet&rod kit from Edelbrock....

pulled some plugs and they were OK ! so i tought again why i loose still sometimes assisted brakes and wanted to check first the vacuum...

first tought was to check the manifold bolts... they are only hand tighted !

It are Allen keys , must see for the right types as i have only metric's at home ...
will do them this evening.

Perhaps the new ? gaskets "seated" and the bolts need a re-torq ? Bought the car that way and never crossed my mind to check those !

don't know if i had vac leaks/ lean mixture by that ?? let's hope and some tuning problems are solved !

needed to remove the carb to get acces to the manifold bolts...got them all on torque but recent drive proved no progress....above 4000 rpm sometimes irregular engine noise and feeling , sometimes no assisted brakes
so all problems are still there.

Checking all i did see some fresh grease leaking on the inside rear axle passenger side ... drivers side is clean... so i already removed this evening the rear + 1 inch spacers to load the rear axles as by factory.I got them with the car ( not installed) and mounted them to get a more fluid line body-tires...but now afraid i loaded the bearings/gaskets to much... ???
I'm gonne forget a bit "the looks" and choose for OEM design... and see what happens. There is no play in it.. so far.
As far i see they can't be greased , so life time filling ??