Starter Motor for 351 C with C6 transmission

Is the bellhousing for a big or small block ford?

If it is mated to a 351 Cleveland then it by default it must be a small block bell housing pattern. Bellhousing is cast integral to a C6 automatic, BTW.

Larry

Walt2103, first you need to measure the depth from the Starter mounting surface to the Ring Gear (flexplate) there are two types: a) with 3/8"(10mm) depth and b) with 3/4"(19mm) They are not interchangeable!

And please tell me which parts are new??? Did you change/replace anything since it worked the last time???

What about the Sheet metal plate between your 351c and the Transmission, is it present?

Jan

My automatic does have a steel plate, always had

Thanks a lot for the prompt relies. Depth from starter mounting to the flexplate is 3/4"(19mm). My automatic never had a mounting sheet metal spacer. I haven`t changed or replaced anything exept after the motor didn`t start and the starter did only this horrible and very loud scratching sound without moving anything I replaced it with a refurbished starter. This one survived only for six or seven start procedures. After that not only the teeth of the starter where destroyed ca.2mm but also some flexplate teeth lost their lifes.
Now that I have ordered the "right" new flexplate I am looking for the "right" starter to avoid another horrible surprise. Do you have any idea what starter will fit or where that sudden problem of this not engaging starter could come from? Now the Motor is seperated from the trans and I could take the best look on the parts.
Thanks a lot in advance

Looking at the ruined teeth on the starter, did it not reach far enough, or did it go too far?

Ford Performance Parts M-11000-B51 - Ford Racing Starters
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Starter, Super Hi-torque, 1.4 kw., Small Diameter, Ford, 289/302/351W/351C, Automatic Transmisson, Each

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You probably didn't wreak your ring gear, clean up the teeth with a file, stab in the right starter.

quote:

Ford Performance Parts M-11000-B51

Pantera Chris, thanks for the hint, but my Longchamp has an external solenoid so that I would have to make some immense electrical changes to the wiring plus the starter you`ve proposed is for 157 teeth flexplates only. And my flexplate got 164.

quote:

my Longchamp has an external solenoid so that I would have to make some immense electrical changes to the wiring

No, its a very simple modification.

The sheet metal plate between Transmission and Your 351C also serves the purpose of centering your starter.

Here is a photo of 2 small-block Ford Engine Block Plates I had in my Garage were you can clearly see that the Starters are not in the same position. Its just for info!

Check this link for a multi block plate for SBF Bolt pattern.

Goodroc, I thought you meant a seperate sheet metal plate that should be put between starter and engine block. I was a little bit confused because if I would put another sheet as a spacer between starter and block the starter wouldn`t engage at all. The starters teeth are obviously not deep enough in the teeth of the flexplate. I`ll send a photo of the damaged teeth of the starter in a minute (kb-reduction). On the photo below you`ll see the plate and the damaged teeth of the flexplate.

Starter teeth

Walt2103, you obviously have the Plate between Block and Transmission. If you remove the Transmission from the Engine (Important leave the Converter on the Transmission) and then temporarily mount your starter on the Sheet metal plate you should be able to push the Drive out and inspect why its not engaging properly. On your Starter first remove the Cap covering the Electro Magnet for the Drive throw out and you are able to manually pry the Drive out to its full extend simulating the throw out!

On the Photo were you measure the Ring Gear/Flex Plate it looks like you are measuring to the Back Side of the Ring Gear? It is from the Starter mounting Surface to the Ring Gear on the Engine (forward) side you must measure approximately 19mm!

Also the Tooths on the Starter Sprocket has a Wedge shape to secure smooth engagement. If they are damaged you must either replace the Drive or remove the Drive from the Starter and Grind them carefully with an Angle Grinder to restore the Wedge shape.

goodroc, thanks for your hints and advices. As I have mentioned in my first "forum-question-mail" I have already ordered a new flexplate. Still looking for the original combination of starter and flexplate. Just the way the car was constructed. That`s also why I would prefer to leave the external solenoid as it is. I like when my car keeps its originality as much as possible. A friend of mine has a Bronco 78` and gave me a brand new starter that looks exactly like my old one - only main wire goes in the back of the starter and not to the side. The starter is called D-3152. I`ll check if it fits on monday the way you told me to check it (remove the cover etc.). Then I have found at Summit SUM-G1611-B this one looks exactly like the Bronco Starter. I wonder if anyone has bought and installed one of those into the Longchamp as described. Perhaps they are identical - just different numbers.

The Bronco starter D-3152 does not fit.
The right starter for my Longchamp is the Powermaster starter 3124.
Summary: flexplate Pioneer FRA 202 or ATP Z-110
(164 teeth, 28 oz.)works together with Powermaster starter 3124 im my car which is a Longchamp 1975 (#2103), 351 Cleveland with C6 transmission. Thanks again to you all who gave me their friendly support. I hope that I could help other Longchamp owners with my short summary too.

I am curious.

Is the 351C installed in your 1975 Longchamp sourced from the US (a Q code 4V Cleveland) or is it sourced from Australia?

If from Australia, this may explain the parts difficulty. However I can provide some additional input.

I don't believe Australia had a C6 transmission. That was a transmission US Ford developed for its large displacement V8 engines. So a 351C sourced from Australia, if the flex plate & starter were Australian, may have employed 'adapters' to work with the North American C6.

Back in North America there were two iterations of the 351C 4V equipped with a C6 transmission.

In 1971 the 351 4V (the M code engine) was equipped with a C6 having a specific modulator valve, and a relatively low rpm stall torque converter (rated about 1500 to 1800 rpm).

In 1972 through 1974 the 351 CJ, 351 GT, or 351 4V (all Q code engines) were equipped with a C6 transmission having a different modulator valve, and a higher stall speed torque converter (rated about 2800 to 3000 rpm).

If the engine was Australian, the question would be which North American parts had it been adapted to work with? 1971 or 1972 - 1974? If you acquire the proper parts all designed for the same engine, they shall mesh together properly.

Just to complete the picture a bit better, here in North America, all 1970 351C engines mated to automatic transmissions were mated to FMX transmissions; in 1971 through 1974 only the 351C 2V engines (H code) mated to automatic transmissions were mated to FMX transmissions. I apologize I don't have information regarding Australian drive train ... but I would love to learn from an Aussie who could fill in that gap.

George P, can you tell me where to find the code of production for the motor. My motor is still not mounted to the trans.
Where is it stamped in ? I can look tomorrow for the code and tell you the result.

If its a US engine (q code) the cylinder heads will have a number 4 and a "dot" in the corners. The Australian heads will not have any numbers in the corners.

If it is equipped with the original "steel" valve covers they normally have a decal (engine tag) attached to them with information we can possibly decode.

George P, it is a "4 and a dot" motor.

That is the Q code engine. It is sometimes referred to as a Cobra Jet, a CJ, a GT, a 4V, or a 4 BBL carburetor version.

The proper parts can be sourced specifying a 1972 Torino or Mustang, equipped with a 351 4V engine (engine code Q) and C6 automatic transmission (transmission code U).

The "separator plate", the flex plate, the torque converter, and the starter are most likely all "specific" to this application.

George P, sorry when I ask you what it means having a Q-code Cleveland. Is it a good motor, perhaps seldom and built into my Longchamp just in a special period or did Mr.De Tomaso buy some hundred of these motors in advance to build it in all of the later Longchamps too or are the later models equiped with other A/T Clevelands ? If so, flexplates and starters would not fit to later Longchamps even though they all had the C6 Automatic ??

De Tomaso had a "stock pile" of engines, but I have no idea how many. I don't think I would describe the quantity as "hundreds".

The Q code engine is the standard 351C with 4 barrel carburetor, for the 1972 through 1974 model years. Its a good engine, with two downsides (1) lowering of the compression ratio took some of the pep out of its performance, (2) the smog tuned carburetor also robbed the engine of performance.

Here's more information: 351C US Production History

When De Tomaso exhausted the supply of US manufactured engines, they began employing Australian made engines. I do not know what De Tomaso did at that point regarding the transmissions, what makes the most sense to me would have been for De Tomaso to use an automatic transmission sourced from Australia (along with the Australian starter, separator plate, flex plate and torque converter). Perhaps this is what motivated the introduction of the Longchamp GT with the 5 speed manual ZF transmission?

I as the question to my aunt at dinner last night. In 1971 the engines arrived when Ford wanted and there were more than bodies by 1974 they showed when Ford wanted and often there were completed bodies waiting.
Never hundreds more like 10s.

George, since I have my Longchamp for 22 years I never thought about details under the hood. For me, I knew that there is a solid american motor that, if maintained once in a while (liquids etc.), stays your friend forever.
Now you made me curious about getting to know more about my dreamcar (since first time I saw it in an auto catalogue when I was 11 or so).
I know a lot about the design (T.Tjaarda) but details about the mechanics never really mattered to me...because it just worked. Even the european "so called" US-car specialists told me whenever I had a little issue here and there with mechanics "Oh, don`t get nervous, it`s a simple american 351 Cleveland, they all are the same". And they still have no idea about the many facets of american motors. It took me 3 months to assemble the right starter with the right flexplate (which was a flywheel when I started to look after it at US-car special stores and workshops in europe incl. Italy). Thanks to you, Mikael and Goodrock I finally found what I was looking for. As me together with my car are getting older we "both" want to know more about the history of the #2103. Is ProvaMo a good source for any informations about my car. It was, as I was told, originally sold to the US. Do I get informations like that at ProvaMo ? BTW, thanks a lot again for your support.

Chuck Melton, the proprietor of ProvaMo, is trying his best to amass full information about De Tomaso Automobiles. He has some information about Longchamps in general, but none regarding your specific car (I searched for your car using "XX2103".

I didn't expect ProvaMo to have information, considering you've owned the car for 22 years ... because ProvaMo has only been around less than 10 years. However ... I would like to encourage you to please contact Chuck and add your car to his registry. I am sure Chuck would welcome any information you wish to share with him about your car.

It only takes a spark to get a fire going.

Guys,

Ford didn't build different starters for different transmissions....OTHER than manual trans vs automagic....!!!! You're making this way more confusing than it really is!

On manual trans bellhousings, Ford put a casting wedge near where the nose of the starter went. If you tried to put an automagic starter in, it wouldn't fit.

DeTomaso bellhousings lack this feature.

Just from the pictures, it looks like the original starter was an automatic version (but I reserve the right to be wrong....) and perhaps there was damage on the ring gear prior....or perhaps the starter..... or perhaps the starter gear was for some odd reason not getting full engagement.....

Maybe someone put a manual trans starter in years ago....tore up the teeth....someone else comes along puts in the right starter....and it lasts until Walt tries to start his car one day.....with ugly happening.

You need to keep in mind that DeTomaso was a scrooge and the parts he used were picked for the cheapest price! If he ordered "automatic crate motors" that came with flywheels that were supposed to mate properly with the FORD transmissions that he bought......

It's not rocket science!

Fast forward to about 1983, then FOrd fired all the rocket scientists and made one starter and moved the ring gears around on the manual trans flywheels.....no more confusion!!!! One starter fits all!

I think new flywheel and new automatic bendix gear will work fine!

Ciao!
Steve

Twenty years ago when I put a McLeod mini-starter on the Pantera, it came with a 5/8" thick spacer plate. The instructions said 'std trans- use starter as is. Auto trans- use starter with adapter' and the spacer was needed to fit the std shift Pantera. One note- the thickness of the adapter plate between starter and block made the OEM starter mounting stud and bolt too short. I used two longer metric bolts to thread into the bellhousing; for the stud, I cut the head off one bolt and threaded it for a nut. With a stock Ford 'heavy-duty' starter, I had to loosen the right header to remove the 13-lb starter. For the 6-lb mini-starter, no such nonsense- it went in with plenty of clearance without moving the header.