Pro's and Con's to stroking the 351 /// Windsor /// Cleveland ,,, is one better than the other ???
Whats up ????
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
I think the Windsor has a taller deck this helps keep the piston pin out of the oil ring.
Probably helps the rod ratio too! This would make it easier for more cubic inchs from the Windsor.
I'm sure George or someone else will chime in with more detailed information regarding advantages and disadvantages of each engine.
Probably helps the rod ratio too! This would make it easier for more cubic inchs from the Windsor.
I'm sure George or someone else will chime in with more detailed information regarding advantages and disadvantages of each engine.
This is one of the most informative websites and vendors I've found when it comes to Stroker Motors.
This is probably where my next motor will be coming from.
Considering either the 427 Windsor or possibly the big block 460/501-520.
http://www.strokerengine.com/strokerengines.html
This is probably where my next motor will be coming from.
Considering either the 427 Windsor or possibly the big block 460/501-520.
http://www.strokerengine.com/strokerengines.html
Brad................
You already have a Windsor stroker!
Both production blocks have the same power limitations, as they are both thin wall castings. Clevo cylinder heads are superior to Windsor heads, the heads are what make the Cleveland stand out amongst all other 351 cubic inch V8s, but they can be adapted to the Windsor block (that's called a Clevor).
The Windsor block is 0.3" taller than the Cleveland, so you can run a longer rod, which in turn accomodates a longer stroke. Stroker kits to 4.250" are available for the 351W. The biggest Cleveland kit is 4.00". Since we are comparing the Cleveland to the Windsor, I won't stray off on the subject of stroker motor pros & cons at this time. I've pretty well covered that subject in the past.
The Windsor also has what is accepted as a better lubrication system; the discharge of the oil pump supplies a pasasge feeding the main/cam bearings only, at the rear of the block this passage then feeds the right & left lifter galleys.
The Cleveland cam bearings are larger and allow for larger base circle camshafts, and therefore more aggressive camshaft lobe profiles.
The Cleveland also has smaller main bearing journals, preferable for high rpm operation. The aftermarket Windsor blocks all offer Cleveland sized main bearings either standard or as an option.
The Cleveland coolant system is a better design, although it has often been botched by the idiot at the parts counter that sells the owner a Windsor thermostat.
For a Pantera owner, the attraction of keeping the Cleveland has to be originality. This is important to me for instance, as well as several other folks I know. I can build quite a bit of performance into my Cleveland and yet keep the engine looking oem. I believe as time goes on, originality will become more and more important to our marque. The heavily modified Pantera will be harder to sell and fetch less money. I could be wrong, of course.
Another consideration for some, such as myself, I already have shelves and shelves of Cleveland parts in my garage, er, I mean my Pantera shrine.
Folks are attracted to the Windsor for the readily available crate motors, while others put importance on that magic 427 cubic inch number.
I'll point out that a good power limit for the Pantera, in my opinion, is in the area of 500 ft/lbs torque, 500 bhp, with a redline in the area of 6500 rpm. This takes into consideration the limitations of the production blocks, the limitations in the size of the radiator and the limitations in the oem parts of the ZF tranny.
This power level can be reached with a Cleveland as easily as with the Windsor, air flow and compression are what make horsepower, therefore the formula for 500 bhp is (1) a high lift hydraulic roller cam, (2) head porting or alloy heads plus (3) an induction system to work in conjunction with the heads and cam to provide good volumetric efficiency, and (4) pushing the limit with the compression ratio. Add to that list all the other goodies (exhaust system, ignition system) to support that power level. A stroker crank allows the motor to make more torque, and to reach the bhp goal at a lower rpm, the hope being this improves reliablility AND drivability.
The guys who want to make the most horsepower possible with a small block Ford or who want to go racing should use a Windsor racing block (FRPP, Dart, World Products) and Yates style high port heads (C3H, SC1 or D3) as the foundations for their motor.
Your friend on the DTBB, George
You already have a Windsor stroker!
Both production blocks have the same power limitations, as they are both thin wall castings. Clevo cylinder heads are superior to Windsor heads, the heads are what make the Cleveland stand out amongst all other 351 cubic inch V8s, but they can be adapted to the Windsor block (that's called a Clevor).
The Windsor block is 0.3" taller than the Cleveland, so you can run a longer rod, which in turn accomodates a longer stroke. Stroker kits to 4.250" are available for the 351W. The biggest Cleveland kit is 4.00". Since we are comparing the Cleveland to the Windsor, I won't stray off on the subject of stroker motor pros & cons at this time. I've pretty well covered that subject in the past.
The Windsor also has what is accepted as a better lubrication system; the discharge of the oil pump supplies a pasasge feeding the main/cam bearings only, at the rear of the block this passage then feeds the right & left lifter galleys.
The Cleveland cam bearings are larger and allow for larger base circle camshafts, and therefore more aggressive camshaft lobe profiles.
The Cleveland also has smaller main bearing journals, preferable for high rpm operation. The aftermarket Windsor blocks all offer Cleveland sized main bearings either standard or as an option.
The Cleveland coolant system is a better design, although it has often been botched by the idiot at the parts counter that sells the owner a Windsor thermostat.
For a Pantera owner, the attraction of keeping the Cleveland has to be originality. This is important to me for instance, as well as several other folks I know. I can build quite a bit of performance into my Cleveland and yet keep the engine looking oem. I believe as time goes on, originality will become more and more important to our marque. The heavily modified Pantera will be harder to sell and fetch less money. I could be wrong, of course.
Another consideration for some, such as myself, I already have shelves and shelves of Cleveland parts in my garage, er, I mean my Pantera shrine.
Folks are attracted to the Windsor for the readily available crate motors, while others put importance on that magic 427 cubic inch number.
I'll point out that a good power limit for the Pantera, in my opinion, is in the area of 500 ft/lbs torque, 500 bhp, with a redline in the area of 6500 rpm. This takes into consideration the limitations of the production blocks, the limitations in the size of the radiator and the limitations in the oem parts of the ZF tranny.
This power level can be reached with a Cleveland as easily as with the Windsor, air flow and compression are what make horsepower, therefore the formula for 500 bhp is (1) a high lift hydraulic roller cam, (2) head porting or alloy heads plus (3) an induction system to work in conjunction with the heads and cam to provide good volumetric efficiency, and (4) pushing the limit with the compression ratio. Add to that list all the other goodies (exhaust system, ignition system) to support that power level. A stroker crank allows the motor to make more torque, and to reach the bhp goal at a lower rpm, the hope being this improves reliablility AND drivability.
The guys who want to make the most horsepower possible with a small block Ford or who want to go racing should use a Windsor racing block (FRPP, Dart, World Products) and Yates style high port heads (C3H, SC1 or D3) as the foundations for their motor.
Your friend on the DTBB, George
Well JohnK,,,, there you have it,, More info that you know what to do with,,, The guys on this B Board are are full of great info. All you have to do is ask.
johnk
Newbie
Posted January 15, 2006 09:58 AM
quote:
Originally posted by lastpushbutton:
quote:
Originally posted by johnk:
Forgive me, I'm new here. What is the advantage of installing a Windsor motor over the original Cleveland-headed design?
Johnk, I belive the 427 is a Cleveland based motor. Bored and stroked to 427. Your quesion has come up before. I can't say...try a search under engine tech using the keyword- Windsor.
Thanks, 427" is achievable in either a Cleveland or Windsor based motor, but Windsor strokers seems to be the rage right now. The motor at the top of the thread appears to be a Windsor, at least it has Windsor valve covers on what looks like aluminum Windsor heads..
Thanks again... .
johnk
Newbie
Posted January 15, 2006 09:58 AM
quote:
Originally posted by lastpushbutton:
quote:
Originally posted by johnk:
Forgive me, I'm new here. What is the advantage of installing a Windsor motor over the original Cleveland-headed design?
Johnk, I belive the 427 is a Cleveland based motor. Bored and stroked to 427. Your quesion has come up before. I can't say...try a search under engine tech using the keyword- Windsor.
Thanks, 427" is achievable in either a Cleveland or Windsor based motor, but Windsor strokers seems to be the rage right now. The motor at the top of the thread appears to be a Windsor, at least it has Windsor valve covers on what looks like aluminum Windsor heads..
Thanks again... .
> Pro's and Con's to stroking the 351 /// Windsor /// Cleveland
Stroker math is simple :
rod length + crank stroke/2 + piston pin height = deck height
Use a 408C stroker as an example with 4" stroke crank and 6" rod and 4.030"
bore for 408 cubic inches. Assuming zero deck and re-arranging the equation
to solve for pin height, the stack up works out to be:
piston pin height = deck height - (rod length + crank stroke/2)
= 9.2 - (6.0 + 4.0/2)
= 1.2 inches
331 and 347 cubic inch strokers are popular for 5.0L Ford V8's these days.
5.0L V8's have a deck height of 8.2", so plugging the pertinent values into
the formula yields:
deck height - (rod length + stroke/2) = pin height
8.2 - (5.4 + 3.4/2 ) = 1.100 inches
8.2 - (5.4 + 3.25/2 ) = 1.175 inches
so you can see the 1.2" pin height of a 408C stroker is better than the
popular 5.0L stroker kits.
Rod to stroke ratio for the 408C is:
= 6.0/4.0
= 1.5
A r/s of 1.5 is on the low end of production Detroit V8's (slightly less
than a Chevy 454 but slightly more than a Chevy 400), so should be fine for
a hot rod motor. For reference, here are a few production V8's in the same
range:
bore stroke r/s
Olds 400-455 4.25 6.735 1.58
Ford 460 3.85 6.06 1.57
Pontiac 455 4.21 6.625 1.57
Ford 300 Six 4 6.21 1.55
Chevy 454 4.00 6.13 1.53
Chevy 400 3.75 5.56 1.48
When I was mulling this all over, I calculated a few more numbers:
deck height - (rod length + stroke/2) = pin height
9.206 - (5.778 + 3.50/2) = 1.678 r/s = 1.651 stock 351C
9.206 - (6.000 + 3.50/2) = 1.456 r/s = 1.714 6" rod is easier on walls
9.206 - (6.125 + 3.50/2) = 1.331 r/s = 1.750 a bit longer rod
9.206 - (6.200 + 3.50/2) = 1.256 r/s = 1.771 what many circle track racers
run with Aussie 2V heads
9.206 - (6.250 + 3.50/2) = 1.206 r/s = 1.786
9.206 - (6.000 + 3.70/2) = 1.356 r/s = 1.622 popular 351C stroker specs, uses
offset ground 351C crank
9.206 - (6.125 + 3.70/2) = 1.231 r/s = 1.655
9.206 - (6.200 + 3.70/2) = 1.156 r/s = 1.676
9.206 - (6.125 + 3.75/2) = 1.206 r/s = 1.633 forged crank, popular high rpm
drag race combo with 4V heads
9.206 - (6.200 + 3.75/2) = 1.131 r/s = 1.653 pushing the pin height limits
for a street motor
9.206 - (5.950 + 3.85/2) = 1.331 r/s = 1.545 SCAT cast steel or forged crank,
2.75" Cleveland mains and
Windsor rod journals
9.206 - (6.000 + 3.90/2) = 1.256 r/s = 1.538 Popular sprint car combo
9.206 - (6.000 + 4.00/2) = 1.206 r/s = 1.500 400 nodular iron crank or
aftermarket SCAT, Eagle, etc.
9.206 - (6.000 + 4.10/2) = 1.156 r/s = 1.463 pushing the limits for a 9.2"
deck drag race motor
Before I came up with the XE Aussie NASCAR block and the Fontnana aluminum
block, I was considering running a 400 FMX block. The 400 block has a
generous 10.297" deck height which makes it an attractive candidate for
stroking:
10.297 - (6.580 + 4.00/2) = 1.717 r/s = 1.645 stock 400, lots to work
with here
10.297 - (7.006 + 4.187/2)= 1.198 r/s = 1.673 offset ground 400 crank,
198 Mopar slant six rods,
alternatively can use Ford
truck six rods
The limit on a 400 crank is 4.200" but you have to use Chevy journal rods
to do it and the crank has to be perfect to start with. There are also
aftermarket crank and rod combos available now.
The most popular Pantera combos are:
1. 377 (3.7" stroke, 0.030" over):
Offset grind 351C crank to SBC journal, widen crank journal or narrow rods
for 6.0" SBC rods or use Cleveland width 5.955" 351W rods, custom pistons.
Most conservative. Assuming your crank grinder works reasonably, can be
the least expensive. If not, aftermarket cranks may be as cheap. Room to
go to longer rods (6.125" or 6.2"), if desired. Conservative compression
height and rod ratio with room for a standard ring pack. If you go to the
crank section at:
http://www.bacomatic.org/~dw/alex379/alex379a.htm
There's a good picture of a Cleveland versus SBC journal on the same
crank throw. Notice how long it takes a grinder to do the work and
you'll understand why the cheap Chinese stroker cranks are so popular.
It's a lot of time on the machine to do right. The critical part is
getting a good radius where the journal merges into crank throw.
To do this correctly is a lot of time and labor so you really need a
machinist you trust to do it properly.
2. 393 (3.85" stroke, 0.030" over)
Chinese import cast steel/iron cranks with 6" rods and custom pistons.
Also 5140 forged steel and 4340 forged steel cranks are available.
Like a 377 but with more cubes. Pin is still out of the ring pack.
3 408: (4.00" stroke, 0.030" over)
4" stroke crank, 6" rods, 1.2" compression height. Most cubes while keeping
a decent pin height. Most power for a given RPM (best torque) but higher
piston speed.
All are workable. For my 4.1" bore Fontana block, I picked a 3.85" stroke
4340 SCAT forging which yields 407 cubes. For my backup motor using the
XE block, I'm looking at a 4" stroke for the extra cubes. Even the OEM's
are building strokers these days. The Chevy LS7 as installed in the 2006
Corvette Z06 is a 4" stroke in a 9.0" deck height, all with a GM powertrain
warranty.
The limiting factor for Cleveland stroker pistons is often the valve notch in
the block and pistons. Cleveland blocks are usually notched at the tops of
their bores for valve clearance/shrouding which can place a limit on the top
ring placement (needs to be below the valve notch at TDC plus rod stretch).
The depth of the notch varies from block to block but on my Aussie XE block,
it's about 0.27" down from the deck. Beware that some 351C stroker kits use
pistons originally meant for inline valve heads that are cut for Cleveland
style canted valve notches. I don't recommend that.
When shopping around for a stroker kit, there are a number of things to keep
in mind. First of all, there's little reason to buy a kit. You're looking
at cstom pistons so the there's little cost difference to picking the proper
crank, rods and pistons for your application versus buying a kit. In addition
to valve notch placement issue I mention above, you'll need to pick whether
you want drag race pistons, oval track or street pistons. The street pistons
will be of an alloy with higher silicon content to minimize thermal expansion.
Oval track pistons will be a little heavier than the drag pistons but more
durable. I went with the oval track/ road racing pistons for my stroker.
Also, the cheapest crank doesn't necessarily equate to the least expensive
kit. You have to figure in the cost of balancing. A friend's internal
balanced crank required 21 slugs of Mallory metal to balance at $40 per slug
wholesale plus labor. Not cheap but he is turning 9000 RPM. For most
applications, 28.2 oz-in works just fine but stay away from the 50 oz-in
stuff. Some crank manufacturers will tell you the bobweight there cranks
are designed for and others, like SCAT, have versions of the same crank for
6.0", 6.125", and 6.2" rods and various lightening options. I used Wiseco
pistons, 6.0" Oliver I-beam supelight rods and a 3.85" SCAT 4340 forging
for 6" rods. We needed no Mallory metal to balance. Quite the opposite,
it took a lot of grinding to get into balance. The SCAT cranks are nitride
hardedned and are difficult to grind or drill so some shops may charge more
for labor. On rods, you'll have material (5140 versus 4340) and construction
(H-beam versus I-beam) to consider, along with fasteners (capscrews versus
through bolt and nut). If you offet grind a 351C crank, you have to either
narrow the SBC 6" rods or widen the journals on the Cleveland crank or use
a 351W rod. Narrowing the rods is cheaper and easier if you're offset
grinding the crank but a wider bearing may last longer. If you're going
with an aftermarket crank, most will use the small block Chevy 2.1" diameter
rod journals and 0.940" width rods. However, the Ford Sportsman and certain
3.85" SCAT and Eagle cranks are set up for 2.311" diameter 351W rods. Don't
get hung up on rod ratio. The effect of rod length is relatively minor.
In talking with Jon Kaase, he mentioned his rule of thumb for rod length is
2" longer than the stroke. He says that has worked well on his engines from
351C's to his mountain motor stuff. All the combos above have a better ring
placement than popular 347 cube stroker kits for the 5.0 due to the fact the
351C has a deck height a full inch higher than a 302.
Be aware the aftermarket "Cleveland style" cranks are not exact Cleveland
replacement cranks. Rather, they are cranks meant to go in Ford Motorsport
hybrid blocks (or other race block) which combine the 2.75" Cleveland mains
with a Windsor architecture. The Cleveland snout is longer than the Windsor
one. Most aftermarket "Cleveland style" cranks use the Windsor snout. The
Cleveland snout has a "snout ring" ahead of the #1 main, to space the lower
sprocket out to clear the journal. Windsors have a collar on the back of
the sprocket and are machined flat ahead of the journal. When using a
"Cleveland style" crank in a 351C iron block, a Ford Motorsport spacer (part
number M-19009-A341C, required with 351 SVO crankshaft when used in production
iron 351C engine, will fix the problem. The spacer is not a press-fit and you
can push it on by hand. There are true Cleveland spec aftermarket cranks but
they tend to be custom order. Also, RDI stocks a hybrid 351W/351C timing set
from Dynatech to match the Windsor crank snout in a Cleveland block.
The Cleveland #3 (thrust) main is narrower by approximately 0.009" (as
measured by Jim Sams). Most aftermarket cranks with 2.75" diameter mains
use the narrower Cleveland thrust width which allows the use of Cleveland
main bearings but ask before ordering. The main bearing spacer kit that
allows 351W blocks to use 2.75" diameter cranks uses the 351W thrust width
which requires a special thrust bearing (available from Ford Motorsport).
The cast iron 2.75" diameter main Ford Motorsport Sportsman cranks have the
351W thrust width to match the spacer kit. The 4000 series SCAT "Cleveland
Style" cranks have the Windsor snout but have 2.75" diameter mains and take
351C bearing, including the thrust bearing.
> This is probably where my next motor will be coming from.
Make sure they understand the ins and outs of the engine you intend to build.
They can't be specialists in all engines.
> while others put importance on that magic 427 cubic inch number.
Of course the 427 Ford never actually displaced 427 cubic inches. The 427
displaces closer to 425 cubic inches but Ford marketing wanted to one-up
the Oldsmobile 425. The 428 actualy displaces 427 cubic inches but Ford
couldn't call it a 427 since the 427 already existed.
> This power level can be reached with a Clevland as easily as with the Windsor,
>air flow and compression are what make horsepower, therefore the formula for 500
>bhp is (1) a high lift hydraulic roller cam,
I picked a hydraulic roller for my application but you could make that HP
target with a flat tappet cam (hyraulic or solid). You have to be careful
when spec'ing hydraulic roller cams as the heavy roller lifters can limit RPM.
Proper valve springs (I used a BBC hydraulic roller valve spring), lobe
design, and lifters (I used the Crane which support higher revs than OEM
hydraulic roller lifters), and lighter valvetrain (beehives with nickel sized
titanium retainers or titanium valves) will extend the RPM range. David
Vizard recently did a very good article on hydraulic and solid flat tappet
and roller cams and when to pick to pick one over the other. Well worth the
read.
Dan Jones
Stroker math is simple :
rod length + crank stroke/2 + piston pin height = deck height
Use a 408C stroker as an example with 4" stroke crank and 6" rod and 4.030"
bore for 408 cubic inches. Assuming zero deck and re-arranging the equation
to solve for pin height, the stack up works out to be:
piston pin height = deck height - (rod length + crank stroke/2)
= 9.2 - (6.0 + 4.0/2)
= 1.2 inches
331 and 347 cubic inch strokers are popular for 5.0L Ford V8's these days.
5.0L V8's have a deck height of 8.2", so plugging the pertinent values into
the formula yields:
deck height - (rod length + stroke/2) = pin height
8.2 - (5.4 + 3.4/2 ) = 1.100 inches
8.2 - (5.4 + 3.25/2 ) = 1.175 inches
so you can see the 1.2" pin height of a 408C stroker is better than the
popular 5.0L stroker kits.
Rod to stroke ratio for the 408C is:
= 6.0/4.0
= 1.5
A r/s of 1.5 is on the low end of production Detroit V8's (slightly less
than a Chevy 454 but slightly more than a Chevy 400), so should be fine for
a hot rod motor. For reference, here are a few production V8's in the same
range:
bore stroke r/s
Olds 400-455 4.25 6.735 1.58
Ford 460 3.85 6.06 1.57
Pontiac 455 4.21 6.625 1.57
Ford 300 Six 4 6.21 1.55
Chevy 454 4.00 6.13 1.53
Chevy 400 3.75 5.56 1.48
When I was mulling this all over, I calculated a few more numbers:
deck height - (rod length + stroke/2) = pin height
9.206 - (5.778 + 3.50/2) = 1.678 r/s = 1.651 stock 351C
9.206 - (6.000 + 3.50/2) = 1.456 r/s = 1.714 6" rod is easier on walls
9.206 - (6.125 + 3.50/2) = 1.331 r/s = 1.750 a bit longer rod
9.206 - (6.200 + 3.50/2) = 1.256 r/s = 1.771 what many circle track racers
run with Aussie 2V heads
9.206 - (6.250 + 3.50/2) = 1.206 r/s = 1.786
9.206 - (6.000 + 3.70/2) = 1.356 r/s = 1.622 popular 351C stroker specs, uses
offset ground 351C crank
9.206 - (6.125 + 3.70/2) = 1.231 r/s = 1.655
9.206 - (6.200 + 3.70/2) = 1.156 r/s = 1.676
9.206 - (6.125 + 3.75/2) = 1.206 r/s = 1.633 forged crank, popular high rpm
drag race combo with 4V heads
9.206 - (6.200 + 3.75/2) = 1.131 r/s = 1.653 pushing the pin height limits
for a street motor
9.206 - (5.950 + 3.85/2) = 1.331 r/s = 1.545 SCAT cast steel or forged crank,
2.75" Cleveland mains and
Windsor rod journals
9.206 - (6.000 + 3.90/2) = 1.256 r/s = 1.538 Popular sprint car combo
9.206 - (6.000 + 4.00/2) = 1.206 r/s = 1.500 400 nodular iron crank or
aftermarket SCAT, Eagle, etc.
9.206 - (6.000 + 4.10/2) = 1.156 r/s = 1.463 pushing the limits for a 9.2"
deck drag race motor
Before I came up with the XE Aussie NASCAR block and the Fontnana aluminum
block, I was considering running a 400 FMX block. The 400 block has a
generous 10.297" deck height which makes it an attractive candidate for
stroking:
10.297 - (6.580 + 4.00/2) = 1.717 r/s = 1.645 stock 400, lots to work
with here
10.297 - (7.006 + 4.187/2)= 1.198 r/s = 1.673 offset ground 400 crank,
198 Mopar slant six rods,
alternatively can use Ford
truck six rods
The limit on a 400 crank is 4.200" but you have to use Chevy journal rods
to do it and the crank has to be perfect to start with. There are also
aftermarket crank and rod combos available now.
The most popular Pantera combos are:
1. 377 (3.7" stroke, 0.030" over):
Offset grind 351C crank to SBC journal, widen crank journal or narrow rods
for 6.0" SBC rods or use Cleveland width 5.955" 351W rods, custom pistons.
Most conservative. Assuming your crank grinder works reasonably, can be
the least expensive. If not, aftermarket cranks may be as cheap. Room to
go to longer rods (6.125" or 6.2"), if desired. Conservative compression
height and rod ratio with room for a standard ring pack. If you go to the
crank section at:
http://www.bacomatic.org/~dw/alex379/alex379a.htm
There's a good picture of a Cleveland versus SBC journal on the same
crank throw. Notice how long it takes a grinder to do the work and
you'll understand why the cheap Chinese stroker cranks are so popular.
It's a lot of time on the machine to do right. The critical part is
getting a good radius where the journal merges into crank throw.
To do this correctly is a lot of time and labor so you really need a
machinist you trust to do it properly.
2. 393 (3.85" stroke, 0.030" over)
Chinese import cast steel/iron cranks with 6" rods and custom pistons.
Also 5140 forged steel and 4340 forged steel cranks are available.
Like a 377 but with more cubes. Pin is still out of the ring pack.
3 408: (4.00" stroke, 0.030" over)
4" stroke crank, 6" rods, 1.2" compression height. Most cubes while keeping
a decent pin height. Most power for a given RPM (best torque) but higher
piston speed.
All are workable. For my 4.1" bore Fontana block, I picked a 3.85" stroke
4340 SCAT forging which yields 407 cubes. For my backup motor using the
XE block, I'm looking at a 4" stroke for the extra cubes. Even the OEM's
are building strokers these days. The Chevy LS7 as installed in the 2006
Corvette Z06 is a 4" stroke in a 9.0" deck height, all with a GM powertrain
warranty.
The limiting factor for Cleveland stroker pistons is often the valve notch in
the block and pistons. Cleveland blocks are usually notched at the tops of
their bores for valve clearance/shrouding which can place a limit on the top
ring placement (needs to be below the valve notch at TDC plus rod stretch).
The depth of the notch varies from block to block but on my Aussie XE block,
it's about 0.27" down from the deck. Beware that some 351C stroker kits use
pistons originally meant for inline valve heads that are cut for Cleveland
style canted valve notches. I don't recommend that.
When shopping around for a stroker kit, there are a number of things to keep
in mind. First of all, there's little reason to buy a kit. You're looking
at cstom pistons so the there's little cost difference to picking the proper
crank, rods and pistons for your application versus buying a kit. In addition
to valve notch placement issue I mention above, you'll need to pick whether
you want drag race pistons, oval track or street pistons. The street pistons
will be of an alloy with higher silicon content to minimize thermal expansion.
Oval track pistons will be a little heavier than the drag pistons but more
durable. I went with the oval track/ road racing pistons for my stroker.
Also, the cheapest crank doesn't necessarily equate to the least expensive
kit. You have to figure in the cost of balancing. A friend's internal
balanced crank required 21 slugs of Mallory metal to balance at $40 per slug
wholesale plus labor. Not cheap but he is turning 9000 RPM. For most
applications, 28.2 oz-in works just fine but stay away from the 50 oz-in
stuff. Some crank manufacturers will tell you the bobweight there cranks
are designed for and others, like SCAT, have versions of the same crank for
6.0", 6.125", and 6.2" rods and various lightening options. I used Wiseco
pistons, 6.0" Oliver I-beam supelight rods and a 3.85" SCAT 4340 forging
for 6" rods. We needed no Mallory metal to balance. Quite the opposite,
it took a lot of grinding to get into balance. The SCAT cranks are nitride
hardedned and are difficult to grind or drill so some shops may charge more
for labor. On rods, you'll have material (5140 versus 4340) and construction
(H-beam versus I-beam) to consider, along with fasteners (capscrews versus
through bolt and nut). If you offet grind a 351C crank, you have to either
narrow the SBC 6" rods or widen the journals on the Cleveland crank or use
a 351W rod. Narrowing the rods is cheaper and easier if you're offset
grinding the crank but a wider bearing may last longer. If you're going
with an aftermarket crank, most will use the small block Chevy 2.1" diameter
rod journals and 0.940" width rods. However, the Ford Sportsman and certain
3.85" SCAT and Eagle cranks are set up for 2.311" diameter 351W rods. Don't
get hung up on rod ratio. The effect of rod length is relatively minor.
In talking with Jon Kaase, he mentioned his rule of thumb for rod length is
2" longer than the stroke. He says that has worked well on his engines from
351C's to his mountain motor stuff. All the combos above have a better ring
placement than popular 347 cube stroker kits for the 5.0 due to the fact the
351C has a deck height a full inch higher than a 302.
Be aware the aftermarket "Cleveland style" cranks are not exact Cleveland
replacement cranks. Rather, they are cranks meant to go in Ford Motorsport
hybrid blocks (or other race block) which combine the 2.75" Cleveland mains
with a Windsor architecture. The Cleveland snout is longer than the Windsor
one. Most aftermarket "Cleveland style" cranks use the Windsor snout. The
Cleveland snout has a "snout ring" ahead of the #1 main, to space the lower
sprocket out to clear the journal. Windsors have a collar on the back of
the sprocket and are machined flat ahead of the journal. When using a
"Cleveland style" crank in a 351C iron block, a Ford Motorsport spacer (part
number M-19009-A341C, required with 351 SVO crankshaft when used in production
iron 351C engine, will fix the problem. The spacer is not a press-fit and you
can push it on by hand. There are true Cleveland spec aftermarket cranks but
they tend to be custom order. Also, RDI stocks a hybrid 351W/351C timing set
from Dynatech to match the Windsor crank snout in a Cleveland block.
The Cleveland #3 (thrust) main is narrower by approximately 0.009" (as
measured by Jim Sams). Most aftermarket cranks with 2.75" diameter mains
use the narrower Cleveland thrust width which allows the use of Cleveland
main bearings but ask before ordering. The main bearing spacer kit that
allows 351W blocks to use 2.75" diameter cranks uses the 351W thrust width
which requires a special thrust bearing (available from Ford Motorsport).
The cast iron 2.75" diameter main Ford Motorsport Sportsman cranks have the
351W thrust width to match the spacer kit. The 4000 series SCAT "Cleveland
Style" cranks have the Windsor snout but have 2.75" diameter mains and take
351C bearing, including the thrust bearing.
> This is probably where my next motor will be coming from.
Make sure they understand the ins and outs of the engine you intend to build.
They can't be specialists in all engines.
> while others put importance on that magic 427 cubic inch number.
Of course the 427 Ford never actually displaced 427 cubic inches. The 427
displaces closer to 425 cubic inches but Ford marketing wanted to one-up
the Oldsmobile 425. The 428 actualy displaces 427 cubic inches but Ford
couldn't call it a 427 since the 427 already existed.
> This power level can be reached with a Clevland as easily as with the Windsor,
>air flow and compression are what make horsepower, therefore the formula for 500
>bhp is (1) a high lift hydraulic roller cam,
I picked a hydraulic roller for my application but you could make that HP
target with a flat tappet cam (hyraulic or solid). You have to be careful
when spec'ing hydraulic roller cams as the heavy roller lifters can limit RPM.
Proper valve springs (I used a BBC hydraulic roller valve spring), lobe
design, and lifters (I used the Crane which support higher revs than OEM
hydraulic roller lifters), and lighter valvetrain (beehives with nickel sized
titanium retainers or titanium valves) will extend the RPM range. David
Vizard recently did a very good article on hydraulic and solid flat tappet
and roller cams and when to pick to pick one over the other. Well worth the
read.
Dan Jones
Hold on,,, What , say that 3 times real fast. 
Dan,
Where did Mr. Vizard's article appear?
George
Where did Mr. Vizard's article appear?
George
I'll have to look it up. A lot of his stuff gets published in Popular Hot Rodding. Vizard spec'd my cam and I'm using the Crane lifters, beehive springs and nickle sized titanium retainers he suggested.
Dan Jones
Dan Jones
My goodness Dan, you are 'out - teching' the tech boys....Well done & thks so much,..agin a wealth of info for us all out there swirling around in this electronic ether / automotive / heaven.....Would love to see / look up the Vizard article if u can remeber the mag....
Vizard is fantastic.....are u aquainted with his very early work re. cylinder head flow chracteristics.....mostly on 4 - pot Brit. motors, but of course aplicable to all other motors to ...A true font of knowledge like yourself Mr Vizard.
When i started racing my old Jaguar in Historics races here he set me right re. the advantages of the much misunderstood, wonderful piece of equipment; the constant vacumme S.U. carb. I was toying with the idea of running 3x WEBER DCOE's which most of my compition were, but thks to David i stayed with the big triple S. U.'s, saving a whack of $'s and out running the Weber boys constentely.....Later his advice was agin put to good use when a mate of mine was turboing his Jag D-Type replica and we had tried several options carb wise, thinking a single S U would not flow enough for the demand made by the 6-cyd. motor...but wrong. The 2inch SU worked better than all of them and is still running strong...the man is King... and you know him.... More info plse....
Vizard is fantastic.....are u aquainted with his very early work re. cylinder head flow chracteristics.....mostly on 4 - pot Brit. motors, but of course aplicable to all other motors to ...A true font of knowledge like yourself Mr Vizard.
When i started racing my old Jaguar in Historics races here he set me right re. the advantages of the much misunderstood, wonderful piece of equipment; the constant vacumme S.U. carb. I was toying with the idea of running 3x WEBER DCOE's which most of my compition were, but thks to David i stayed with the big triple S. U.'s, saving a whack of $'s and out running the Weber boys constentely.....Later his advice was agin put to good use when a mate of mine was turboing his Jag D-Type replica and we had tried several options carb wise, thinking a single S U would not flow enough for the demand made by the 6-cyd. motor...but wrong. The 2inch SU worked better than all of them and is still running strong...the man is King... and you know him.... More info plse....
> Would love to see / look up the Vizard article if u can remeber the mag....
I'll look them up this weekend. He's published several good ones lately.
One on stroking, one on cams, another on intakes, etc. Good stuff.
> Vizard is fantastic.....are u aquainted with his very early work re.
> cylinder head flow chracteristics.....mostly on 4 - pot Brit. motors, but
> of course aplicable to all other motors to
Yes. He has an aeronautical engineering backround and started out on Minis
and 4 cylinder Fords in England. Moved to California and became a SBC guru
and now resides in North Carolina.
> ...A true font of knowledge like yourself Mr Vizard.
Vizard is pretty rare in the hot rod press field. He has an engineering
backround and access to a dyno and tests his theories. Most of the guys
who write for hot rod magazines are journalists who will say whatever the
advertisers want them to say.
> The 2inch SU worked better than all of them and is still running strong...
Cool story.
> the man is King... and you know him.... More info plse....
I've only spoken with him on the phone. A while back, he moved from
California to North Carolina to raise his family and be near the NASCAR
industry. He also teaches a Motorsports program at the University of North
Carolina. It just so happens that he moved next to a friend of mine who
put me in touch with him. Vizard offers a custom cam service using software
he helped develop and I had him design a cam for me.
Dan Jones
St. Louis, Missouri
I'll look them up this weekend. He's published several good ones lately.
One on stroking, one on cams, another on intakes, etc. Good stuff.
> Vizard is fantastic.....are u aquainted with his very early work re.
> cylinder head flow chracteristics.....mostly on 4 - pot Brit. motors, but
> of course aplicable to all other motors to
Yes. He has an aeronautical engineering backround and started out on Minis
and 4 cylinder Fords in England. Moved to California and became a SBC guru
and now resides in North Carolina.
> ...A true font of knowledge like yourself Mr Vizard.
Vizard is pretty rare in the hot rod press field. He has an engineering
backround and access to a dyno and tests his theories. Most of the guys
who write for hot rod magazines are journalists who will say whatever the
advertisers want them to say.
> The 2inch SU worked better than all of them and is still running strong...
Cool story.
> the man is King... and you know him.... More info plse....
I've only spoken with him on the phone. A while back, he moved from
California to North Carolina to raise his family and be near the NASCAR
industry. He also teaches a Motorsports program at the University of North
Carolina. It just so happens that he moved next to a friend of mine who
put me in touch with him. Vizard offers a custom cam service using software
he helped develop and I had him design a cam for me.
Dan Jones
St. Louis, Missouri