Technical question--camshaft--long version

Put in a new hydraulic lifter, adjust it and run the engine.
If it runs fine, leave it alone.
If it is still noisy the cam is toast.
Change the cam, lifters and pushrods.
Remember the discussion about the new engine oils not having enough zinc addative for the camshaft and lifter wear?
I think you just proved it.
Makesure that you pump up the zinc content in the oil or it could happen again.

The pushrods are the fuseable link and with hydraulic lifters you won't hurt the pistons.

PanteraDoug
1 Hydralic lifter 15 solid lifters--kind of miss-match I think. I just wonder if the new hydralic lifters would work with the solid cam (maybe it's a solid cam) and not hurt anything else. I think the lifter body is made from the same material--maybe --regardless of solid/hydralic--but I really don't know. Any metalurgists out there? Comp Cams is closed Saturday and I need to put this motor back together tomorrow and drive it to work, the Pantera is my daily driver next week. I can put the solid lifter back in--it doesn't make that much noise and readjust everything??--someone tell me I might not destroy this motor with hydralic lifters.

I also read a thread on the Cleveland forum about Boss pushrods being longer than "H" pushrods by .110?--all the pushrods in this motor were longer than the straight ones I took from my other motor--this might be a boss engine with a solid cam--I just don't know

mark

No you can't mix the lifters. The bottom of the lifters are not flat.
They are cut with a dome that is measured in minutes of a degree. They vary with this detail amongst other ways.
The ramps of the cam lobes are also cut differently.

As far as the length of the pushrods go, I would expect there to be a difference in length.
The main difference though would be that the pushrods are hardened with the solids because the solid lifter Cleveland head uses guide plates that are held in place by screw in studs.
Like on the Boss 302.

These are made necessary by the adjustable rocker arms. The hydraulic cams use bolt down rockers. They are self adjusting but cam be sensative to push rod length.

Somebody better be sure what is in this engine.
I'm not.

Doug

Both sets of pushrods I have are hardened with guideplates and adjustable rocker arms. My retired motor had screw in studs and guideplates installed when I added aussie heads 2 years ago. New motor is the same--just don't know about the camshaft/lifters in this new motor. You don't think hydralic lifters will last in this motor for a week without major damage-- 300 miles? I'm going to just put it back together tomorrow and will let you know what happens. The only worry I have is that 1 lifter is not pushing oil to the rocker/valve #6. I know the new lifters will at least oil the valvetrain and maybe save some damage--or maybe create more damage. I guess I'll learn something about lifters and camshafts, and I promise to share it.

mark

Mark,

I believe the "Monarch" camshaft is a Crower model, not Lunati, and is definately a solid lifter grind, based on memory.

Here's the dope. In general, solid lifter camshafts have more agressive lobes than hydraulic lifter camshafts. There are some modern hydraulic grinds that blurr the lines a bit, but in general that statement remains true.

The lifters designed for solid camshafts are designed to work with the more agressive camshaft lobes. Hydraulic lifters are designed to work with less agressive lobes.

So it is possible to run solid lifters on a hydraulic camshaft, but NOT vice versa. The solid lifter on a hydraulic camshaft is being "underworked". A hydraulic lifter on a solid camshaft is being "overworked" (kinda like me).

On top of that, due to valve train harmonics & dynamics, each lobe/lifter combination (solid verses hydraulic) requires a somewhat different spring. So even though you could put solid lifters on a hydraulic camshaft, the springs would have to be changed too, not just the lifters.

OKAY, enough of this theoretical stuff.

Your camshaft is a solid lifter, flat tappet camshaft, the only thing that will work with it is a solid, flat tappet lifter. Forget the hydraulic lifter idea. A solid/flat tappet lifter should be readily available at NAPA or other auto parts store by referencing a 1971 Boss 351 Mustang, or a 1969/1970 Boss 302 Mustang. Run break-in moly on the replacement lifter & ensure you're using oil with ZDDP in it. Shell Rotella, Chevron DELO 400. Preferably straight 30 weight, 15W40 will do in a pinch. New lifter on a worn-in lobe is a bad idea, but people do get away with it, so keep your fingers crossed.

Pull every lifter & check every lobe & lifter face, then put each lifter back in the lifter bore it came out of (this is critical). Any badly worn lobes or lifters will explain the knocking sound and bring this engine repair to a "grinding" hault.

The bent push rods are likely the result of (1) exhaust valve guides set too tight, or (2) engine ran at too high rpm, valves floated & kissed pistons.

It is not unusual for the valve lash of a new solid lifter camshaft to loosen quickly and require adjustment once during break in of the motor, but not over & over again.

The "dry" rocker assembly is most likely due to a mis-alignment of the hole in the push rod end with the hole in the cup of the rocker arm. This would be caused by something way out of spec on this valve/rocker/pushrod/lifter/camshaft lobe assembly. Like the lobe having been worn down; the push rod too short or too long; the valve stem too short or too long, the valve excessively recessed into the cylinder head.

I'm pulling for you, keep us informed how it goes. Good luck my friend!

take care, George

There is no way to run a hydraulic lifter with a solid cam.
There is no way to adjust it. You will loose oil pressure to that lifter and lobe and reduce pressure to the rest of the rockers.
The lobe and lifter will most likely fail and could leave broken pieces of what was the lifter lobe and the camshaft in the engine.
It most likely will result in catastrophic engine failure within a few miles.
Solid lifters are stock items in many auto part stores. Just replace the lifter and push rod.
Do you want to have your Pantera towed in by Neanderthals?

Ok heres my take .. I had the same problem in my 1st BOSS 302 .... if your running STEEL STAMPED ROCKER arms ... they are different !! THe look the same but SOLID LIFTER STamped STeel Rockers have a longer slot cut in them for a longer radius of travel and will slightly bend the pushrods. If your using roller rockers your on your own ... but if they are stamped steel change them and my money is on the ROCKERS !

Ron

If it has screw in freeze freeze plugs and has cleveland heads with adjustable rockers and an FORD dual plane intake ...its BOSS 302 ... take a pic and post it today.

R

Solid lifter 351c could also be known as Boss 351 valve train.
Boss 351 is Boss 302 valve train. Except for the pushrods which are different lengths.
All the components in the Boss 351 valve train are Boss 302 parts.

Yup. If you have the wrong rockers you will bend the pushrods.

The soild lifters require less oil to the valve train. One can reduce or restrict the oil flow there and keep more on the bottom end where it is needed.

The hydraulic cam 351c valve train is drastically over oiled and one of the reasons that the engine is a 5500rpm design.
The solid lifter is a distinct advantage and with a few modifications is a true 7000 rpm engine.
The problems arise when the 7500rpm number is crossed on a sustained level.
Then drain back tubes, titanium valves, XE Nascar block, dry sump all become requirements.
(just my opinion)

George you are correct Crower is the manufacturer of the Monarch. The rocker arms are rollers on studs with guideplates. I looked up the work order on the crower website
Part Number/Work Order Number 15162
Engine Application 351C/400M FORD
Grind Number M300H
ADVERTISED CAMSHAFT SPECIFICATIONS:
INTAKE: Duration: 300º Lift: 0.507 Clearence Hot: 0
EXHAUST: Duration: 300º Lift: 0.507 Clearence Hot: 0
The specifications listed above are based on a rockerarm ratio of 1.73 IN
1.73 EX
RECOMMENDED VALVE SPRING INFORMATION:

Part # 68100/6820 Single Dual X Triple
Approximate spring pressure: valve closed: 095/105 LBS.
valve open: 245/255 LBS.

8.0
BTDC 0.0
ATDC

ABDC
36.0 44.0
BBDC

The information below is for degreeing cam only. Correct only at .050" tappet lift.
INTAKE Opens: 8.0 BTDC
Closes: 36.0 ABDC
EXHAUST Opens: 44.0 BBDC
Closes: 0.0 ATDC
LOBE SEPERATION 108º
Duration at .050" Intake: 224
Exhaust: 224
LOBE LIFT Intake: 0.293
Exhaust: 0.293

Cam card say's "Monarch" hyd--clearances are all "0"--gotta be hydraulic. Maybe the idiot who built this engine put in solid lifters? Another problem is I adjusted the valves for hydraulic lifters to try and stop the noise--I think that bent the pushrods maybe. I'll go get another solid lifter and readjust everything and see what happens. I really don't want to dissemble the front of the motor just to read the number on the cam. I'm guessing the cam card I got with the motor doesn't necessarily belong to the cam in the engine.

Don't ya just love swapmeets.

You have a hydraulic camshaft. Solid lifters will work if that's what you got, a valve spring change would be needed to optimize, but since this is a short term motor, don't worry about it, just keep your foot out of the accelerator. If you lashed the rocker arms like a hydraulic cam, that would indeed explain the bent push rods, and the bent push rods explain the noise that returned real fast.

Good luck Mark!

Sounds as though you're getting a handle on this situation. Good stuff.

You are right George--I think it's a haudraulic camshaft--I put in new hydraulic lifters--broke in the lifters for 20 minutes--motor performs great.