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deniscCaretaker of 8MA1244 '70 Euro Mangusta DRIVE THEM, THEY WERE MEANT TO BE DRIVEN, IF YOU WANT TO LOOK AT ONE, BUY A POSTER!
That's re latest really low. The latest Polk numbers show Ford a better quality than Toyota. Gas mileage; check fuel consumption on you Tundra or Armanda. You pay more for a Honda, Toyota or Nissan, than you would for a Ford or GM. Yes after 2-3 years the imports have a better resale value, but remember you paid more upfront. Recalls you say, The North Americans publish them the imports keep them hidden then bill you when you come in for the MANDATORY maintenance.
BAILOUT you say, how many jobs do Honda, Toyota or Nissan create in North America? Let's see; designed in Japan, parts manufactured in Japan from Japanese suppliers and Japanese materials, no tax or duty on any of it, Only thing about American assembled cars is US labour (oh yeah 20% less hours than an similar American designed car – more sub assemblies) also these guys earn less than their UAW counterparts and have a weaker pension fund / these companies also don't have a pension responsibility because they are just starting in this venture. Their Japanese labour force is paid peanuts compared to our labour force. How about the $'s ¢'s, well lets ask how much Alabama and Texas has given to these guys: no taxes, free land, loans....
At the end of the day, week, month, year the import suppliers leave very little in this country. Ford, GM and Chrysler are asking for a loan to not a free blank check like the banks. As for Chrysler I’m not sure, when Daimler claimed a merger it was really a takeover, when they bailed-out they sold the company at discount and the people who bought it out usually cut the companies up to recoup their investment, I do hope they can save the corporation without too much slashing . Try to picture this, every manufacturing jobs supports 7 other jobs, (grocery, city, school, department store ect..) Should just 1 of the manufacturers go under how many jobs would die in your community, (yeah I know some of them will find new jobs, but not 100%). Now imagine all 3 go under how many jobs are gone now; from the design people, assembly plant, part supplier, dealership staff local jobber store…and their 7 non automotive related supported jobs.
As it stands today, you've already bailed-out the imports a long time ago thru your jobs and factories (see previous thread where you got dared to find 3 items you bought that were made in USA in the last week)
BAILOUT you say, how many jobs do Honda, Toyota or Nissan create in North America? Let's see; designed in Japan, parts manufactured in Japan from Japanese suppliers and Japanese materials, no tax or duty on any of it, Only thing about American assembled cars is US labour (oh yeah 20% less hours than an similar American designed car – more sub assemblies) also these guys earn less than their UAW counterparts and have a weaker pension fund / these companies also don't have a pension responsibility because they are just starting in this venture. Their Japanese labour force is paid peanuts compared to our labour force. How about the $'s ¢'s, well lets ask how much Alabama and Texas has given to these guys: no taxes, free land, loans....
At the end of the day, week, month, year the import suppliers leave very little in this country. Ford, GM and Chrysler are asking for a loan to not a free blank check like the banks. As for Chrysler I’m not sure, when Daimler claimed a merger it was really a takeover, when they bailed-out they sold the company at discount and the people who bought it out usually cut the companies up to recoup their investment, I do hope they can save the corporation without too much slashing . Try to picture this, every manufacturing jobs supports 7 other jobs, (grocery, city, school, department store ect..) Should just 1 of the manufacturers go under how many jobs would die in your community, (yeah I know some of them will find new jobs, but not 100%). Now imagine all 3 go under how many jobs are gone now; from the design people, assembly plant, part supplier, dealership staff local jobber store…and their 7 non automotive related supported jobs.
As it stands today, you've already bailed-out the imports a long time ago thru your jobs and factories (see previous thread where you got dared to find 3 items you bought that were made in USA in the last week)
I agree. Detroits's cars are some of the best kept secrets in the industry. The American people seem to want to believe that the US cars are inferior. I just don't get it? 21mpg on a new F150 isn't too shabby either.
I bought a Ford Fusion and my son bought a 2 year old Audi TT from an Audi dealer. The fit and finish on the Fusion is clearly better. Not just better, superior.
What will be will be I suppose, but as Tiny Tim (in Dickens Christmas Carroll) says, "God bless us every one". We are all going to need that blessing I'm afraid.
I bought a Ford Fusion and my son bought a 2 year old Audi TT from an Audi dealer. The fit and finish on the Fusion is clearly better. Not just better, superior.
What will be will be I suppose, but as Tiny Tim (in Dickens Christmas Carroll) says, "God bless us every one". We are all going to need that blessing I'm afraid.
quote:and the people who bought it out usually cut the companies up to recoup their investment, I do hope they can save the corporation without too much slashing
Cerebus has billions and billions of dollars in reserve. BUT they want the government to loan their auto company money???
Jeff
Dennis,
You make a lot of good points. And I am a believer. I am a total Detroit iron kind of guy.
I have NEVER owned a Japanese or European car (except for that one Renault 12 way back when). All my cars have been American and the closest I’ll get to European cars is the Italian blood in my Pantera.
I recently went to my Cadillac dealer to trade in my pristine two year old Escalade ESV for the new Hybrid version and was told that a) it’s not available and they don’t know if or when it will be; and b) my Escalade which cost $94k when I bought it is now worth about $30k on a trade.
Every other family member or friend I know regularly gets $30k for any piece of crap Honda, Toyota, Mazda, Hyundai or any of the German brands they trade in after years of total abuse.
No wonder 50% more Americans stick with their German or Japanese brand when they buy a new car than Americans do with GM, Ford and even less with Chrysler.
The only thing that freaks me out about these bailouts is this: yes, times are tough and have been so for a while, but what happened to all the money GM, Ford and Chrysler have been making selling cars, parts, service and financing over the past 100 years?
Even my little brain knows that in the good times you must save some profits to see you through the bad times. WTF?
David
You make a lot of good points. And I am a believer. I am a total Detroit iron kind of guy.
I have NEVER owned a Japanese or European car (except for that one Renault 12 way back when). All my cars have been American and the closest I’ll get to European cars is the Italian blood in my Pantera.
I recently went to my Cadillac dealer to trade in my pristine two year old Escalade ESV for the new Hybrid version and was told that a) it’s not available and they don’t know if or when it will be; and b) my Escalade which cost $94k when I bought it is now worth about $30k on a trade.
Every other family member or friend I know regularly gets $30k for any piece of crap Honda, Toyota, Mazda, Hyundai or any of the German brands they trade in after years of total abuse.
No wonder 50% more Americans stick with their German or Japanese brand when they buy a new car than Americans do with GM, Ford and even less with Chrysler.
The only thing that freaks me out about these bailouts is this: yes, times are tough and have been so for a while, but what happened to all the money GM, Ford and Chrysler have been making selling cars, parts, service and financing over the past 100 years?
Even my little brain knows that in the good times you must save some profits to see you through the bad times. WTF?
David
Ford is a diversified global corporation; it manufactures all sorts of things, including satellites, and has divisions and manufacturing plants scattered around the world. Only one division of Ford is asking for bail out money, the division that manufactures automobiles for North America. If it were to fail tomorrow (and for the sake of the employees and their jobs I hope it doesn't) it would not mean the end of Ford. So in Ford's situation, the bail-out decision boils down to this: should the American government step in and bail-out this division of Ford for the sake of the American jobs it represents, should the parent corporation be called upon to bail them out, or should the parent corporation be free to let this division shut down if can't operate profitably.
I see all 3 sides of the argument, but in the end what's important to me is that the division is bailed out and the jobs & lives of its employees are preserved. I think that's what would have been important to Henry, he was a man with compassion for the common man.
If it were my corporation, and I was able to convince the US government to spend the money to bail-out this division instead of bailing it out with my own money, I would certainly do my best to convince the government to do so. Its good business to take advantage of every opportunity possible, and maximise the stock holder's profits.
eh?
cowboy from hell
I see all 3 sides of the argument, but in the end what's important to me is that the division is bailed out and the jobs & lives of its employees are preserved. I think that's what would have been important to Henry, he was a man with compassion for the common man.
If it were my corporation, and I was able to convince the US government to spend the money to bail-out this division instead of bailing it out with my own money, I would certainly do my best to convince the government to do so. Its good business to take advantage of every opportunity possible, and maximise the stock holder's profits.
eh?
cowboy from hell
Yes George, good business for Ford if they can get us to pay for it - instead of them. Business is usually a lot smarter than government.
Unfortunately for us it's our tax dollars that government is spending. So why should they be any smarter with it this time than any other time?
Unfortunately for us it's our tax dollars that government is spending. So why should they be any smarter with it this time than any other time?
Politicians aren't dumb, their re-election campaigns are funded by corporations like Ford. So you know what they'll decide when all the drama is said and done.
However, I'm afraid the US government isn't spending my tax dollars anymore, the budget for fiscal 2008 - 2009 was exhausted months ago. They're spending funny money right now, they're printing twenties as fast as they can.
G
However, I'm afraid the US government isn't spending my tax dollars anymore, the budget for fiscal 2008 - 2009 was exhausted months ago. They're spending funny money right now, they're printing twenties as fast as they can.
G
They couldn't make money when times were good. What makes anyone think they're going to make money in these tough times.
The bailout is just a bandaid.
I'm no business genius, but if the company doesn't make money, well then it's only a matter of time....
BTW, I owned a Windstar a few years back and it was a POS. It was a rattlebox at 60k miles.
My new E350 has needed warranty brake work, a power steering pump and a seat belt retractor in less than 15k miles. It's also ticking pretty good when cold.
Will
The bailout is just a bandaid.
I'm no business genius, but if the company doesn't make money, well then it's only a matter of time....
BTW, I owned a Windstar a few years back and it was a POS. It was a rattlebox at 60k miles.
My new E350 has needed warranty brake work, a power steering pump and a seat belt retractor in less than 15k miles. It's also ticking pretty good when cold.
Will
Allow me to comment, living in a country where US cars are rare, but most of the cars I've owned were US cars.
The products: The short story is that the US cars had advantages like size, luxury, equipment and if you bought them 3 years old, they were cheap compared to BMW or whatever. Quality and handling was inferior though. That was then. Now, I agree, the new products are as good as anything Europe or Japan or Korea produces, but it takes years and years to change perception. That's the big challenge.
The business: Simply amazing they can't make tons of money considering the size of the companies and the fact that until recently they had such a big share in the profitable truck market. My guess is that top management are not up to the job, they seem complacent, arrogant and are paid so much they'll say anything to stay in the job. I saw on TV the other night some GM executive defending receiving bail out, he was 75 or something. What are they thinking? Will he come up with the new ideas needed? No way.
All that said, I don't blame them for trying to get a billion of government money, I would try to do the same if I were the CEO.
The products: The short story is that the US cars had advantages like size, luxury, equipment and if you bought them 3 years old, they were cheap compared to BMW or whatever. Quality and handling was inferior though. That was then. Now, I agree, the new products are as good as anything Europe or Japan or Korea produces, but it takes years and years to change perception. That's the big challenge.
The business: Simply amazing they can't make tons of money considering the size of the companies and the fact that until recently they had such a big share in the profitable truck market. My guess is that top management are not up to the job, they seem complacent, arrogant and are paid so much they'll say anything to stay in the job. I saw on TV the other night some GM executive defending receiving bail out, he was 75 or something. What are they thinking? Will he come up with the new ideas needed? No way.
All that said, I don't blame them for trying to get a billion of government money, I would try to do the same if I were the CEO.
All excellent points.
Here are a couple of other thoughts not regularly kicked around when this issue is discussed.
Recently, within the last two years, GM, Toyota, and Honda announced that they would close plants in the continental US and move all manufacturing or at least assembly to Canada. The reason coming mostly from GM with the other two agreeing, that Canada had universal health care. The US does not.
That would free up more then a sawbuck for GM in their underlying cost. I thought that this was largely a lobbying manuever by GM but I think it is a valid point and tied into this entire mess. Particularly with Obamas stand on healthcare in the campaign.
The second point is that there is no way to get out of the pension load except chapter 11 and then liquidation. I don't know if the figure heads like Mullaley would admit to that but I bet that there are people on the board that would love to dump everyone and cash in their own preferred stocks.
My own personal belief is that at this point the US is swaying like an aged heavy weight champ and if he goes down there are two many people going to go down with him (including me). This won't be just liquidation of the big 3, this will be liquidation of the US itself.
This is a fight to the death, figuratively speaking that is, and it is for all the marbles. Maybe even basic life itself. There is no place for anyone to hide and the US isn't immune from violence in the streets with mobs chasing the Aristocracy and dragging them to the Guillatine.
The safest bet now is to at least delay the fall and get the 3 out of the winter sales drop into the spring. In the spring perhaps some of the dead wood can be cleaned out and some new crop will come up?
There is always hope and hope is a good thing. Perhaps the best of things.
There is now no alternative but to grow the economy out of this mess to pay for everything. I personally am betting on Ford and GM stock not to stay at $3 a share. There are some people that will make money out of this. A lot of money. Hopefully it isn't going to turn into a WWI Germany scenario where a cup of coffee and a buttered roll will cost you $100,000? Isn't that an interesting thought?
Here are a couple of other thoughts not regularly kicked around when this issue is discussed.
Recently, within the last two years, GM, Toyota, and Honda announced that they would close plants in the continental US and move all manufacturing or at least assembly to Canada. The reason coming mostly from GM with the other two agreeing, that Canada had universal health care. The US does not.
That would free up more then a sawbuck for GM in their underlying cost. I thought that this was largely a lobbying manuever by GM but I think it is a valid point and tied into this entire mess. Particularly with Obamas stand on healthcare in the campaign.
The second point is that there is no way to get out of the pension load except chapter 11 and then liquidation. I don't know if the figure heads like Mullaley would admit to that but I bet that there are people on the board that would love to dump everyone and cash in their own preferred stocks.
My own personal belief is that at this point the US is swaying like an aged heavy weight champ and if he goes down there are two many people going to go down with him (including me). This won't be just liquidation of the big 3, this will be liquidation of the US itself.
This is a fight to the death, figuratively speaking that is, and it is for all the marbles. Maybe even basic life itself. There is no place for anyone to hide and the US isn't immune from violence in the streets with mobs chasing the Aristocracy and dragging them to the Guillatine.
The safest bet now is to at least delay the fall and get the 3 out of the winter sales drop into the spring. In the spring perhaps some of the dead wood can be cleaned out and some new crop will come up?
There is always hope and hope is a good thing. Perhaps the best of things.
There is now no alternative but to grow the economy out of this mess to pay for everything. I personally am betting on Ford and GM stock not to stay at $3 a share. There are some people that will make money out of this. A lot of money. Hopefully it isn't going to turn into a WWI Germany scenario where a cup of coffee and a buttered roll will cost you $100,000? Isn't that an interesting thought?
Well, ... I will way into this ... (my chance to parody Rick Mercer) ...
First, let me say that my father, (God rest his sole) worked most of his life at the Ford assembly plant in Oakville. The first new car he owned was a Pontiac. After that, he only bought Fords.
Yesterday, there aired (on CBC radio) a discussion of automobile manufacturing costs. The Total labour cost portion of the manufacturing cost for a typical NA vehicle was said to be around 5%. The UAW has made repeated responsible consessions to help out the Big 3. I was surprised to learn that in the U.S., the UAW has taken over the running of their members Health Insurance program - It is no longer a GM corporate liability. Also, I learned that there is a two teir wage system that reflects a salary "give back". I wonder what the big executives' "give back" is of their multi-million dollar salaries? As a reference point: Just after the US government gave Billions of TAX dollars to save FanieMAY and FredyMAC, the CEOs made sure they got to walk away with 30 Billion in salaries and bonuses.
Which leads me to the topic of products for the marketplace ...
The first new car I owned (at 18) was a '74 Ford Capri Mk 1 built in Cologne Germany (In '74, it sat in the dealer showroom right beside a beautiful yellow '74 DeTomaso). I owned and drove it for 17 years with no major problems (just could not get parts for it easily anymore). I have owned many other cars since. Currently my wife's car is a Ford Focus Kombi (Stationwagon). I have NEVER had any problems with the Ford cars I have purchased. They have been, and are, reliable with quality that I have been pleased with. Of the Big NA 3, Ford, not surprisingly in my opinion, currently is in the strongest position.
When teatering on bankcrupsy in the 80's, Chrysler re-invented itself with Government help and Lee Iacocca's leadership. I have every confidence they will again. (Yes, I drive a Jeep Cherokee) Then, Governments made stock option loans and, in the end, it was a good investment.
We then are left with General Motors. The largest of the Big 3 and second now to Toyota in the world. Under Smith's leadership, GM appeared to be getting out of the automobile business. I haven't seen anything substantive to make me think that culture has changed. Sure there were, and are, examples of products that tended to break the trend. But, the culture did not seem to change. Rather that re-invest in forward thinking for their automotive sector ("Who killed the electric car?"), they increased truck and van production beause that was a sector the Asians and Europeans did not compete in. Well the chickens have finally come home.
When Harley-Davidson was on the brink of going under, Ronald Regan stepped in and saved it. It has done well since.
I feel the North American economy depends on helping the Big Three. Our Governments should step in and provide the help they need. I just hope that people in positions of authority, as in the case of Chrysler in the 80's, tie the help to require a corporate business model that will make them produce forward thinking, quality, technologically innovative, reliable vehicles that the market needs. Otherwise, as in the case of Smith's GM - we are delaying the inevitable.
B.G.
P.S. I feel better now !!
First, let me say that my father, (God rest his sole) worked most of his life at the Ford assembly plant in Oakville. The first new car he owned was a Pontiac. After that, he only bought Fords.
Yesterday, there aired (on CBC radio) a discussion of automobile manufacturing costs. The Total labour cost portion of the manufacturing cost for a typical NA vehicle was said to be around 5%. The UAW has made repeated responsible consessions to help out the Big 3. I was surprised to learn that in the U.S., the UAW has taken over the running of their members Health Insurance program - It is no longer a GM corporate liability. Also, I learned that there is a two teir wage system that reflects a salary "give back". I wonder what the big executives' "give back" is of their multi-million dollar salaries? As a reference point: Just after the US government gave Billions of TAX dollars to save FanieMAY and FredyMAC, the CEOs made sure they got to walk away with 30 Billion in salaries and bonuses.
Which leads me to the topic of products for the marketplace ...
The first new car I owned (at 18) was a '74 Ford Capri Mk 1 built in Cologne Germany (In '74, it sat in the dealer showroom right beside a beautiful yellow '74 DeTomaso). I owned and drove it for 17 years with no major problems (just could not get parts for it easily anymore). I have owned many other cars since. Currently my wife's car is a Ford Focus Kombi (Stationwagon). I have NEVER had any problems with the Ford cars I have purchased. They have been, and are, reliable with quality that I have been pleased with. Of the Big NA 3, Ford, not surprisingly in my opinion, currently is in the strongest position.
When teatering on bankcrupsy in the 80's, Chrysler re-invented itself with Government help and Lee Iacocca's leadership. I have every confidence they will again. (Yes, I drive a Jeep Cherokee) Then, Governments made stock option loans and, in the end, it was a good investment.
We then are left with General Motors. The largest of the Big 3 and second now to Toyota in the world. Under Smith's leadership, GM appeared to be getting out of the automobile business. I haven't seen anything substantive to make me think that culture has changed. Sure there were, and are, examples of products that tended to break the trend. But, the culture did not seem to change. Rather that re-invest in forward thinking for their automotive sector ("Who killed the electric car?"), they increased truck and van production beause that was a sector the Asians and Europeans did not compete in. Well the chickens have finally come home.
When Harley-Davidson was on the brink of going under, Ronald Regan stepped in and saved it. It has done well since.
I feel the North American economy depends on helping the Big Three. Our Governments should step in and provide the help they need. I just hope that people in positions of authority, as in the case of Chrysler in the 80's, tie the help to require a corporate business model that will make them produce forward thinking, quality, technologically innovative, reliable vehicles that the market needs. Otherwise, as in the case of Smith's GM - we are delaying the inevitable.
B.G.
P.S. I feel better now !!
quote:Originally posted by andriyko:
When Harley-Davidson was on the brink of going under, Ronald Regan stepped in and saved it. It has done well since.
So, you are saying that GM should start selling a lot more clothing, clocks and coffee mugs made in China?
Just kidding, I don't feel knowledgeable enough to comment on the other bailout topics.
R.
deniscCaretaker of 8MA1244 '70 Euro Mangusta DRIVE THEM, THEY WERE MEANT TO BE DRIVEN, IF YOU WANT TO LOOK AT ONE, BUY A POSTER!
Ford is a diversified global corporation; it manufactures all sorts of things, including satellites, and has divisions and manufacturing plants scattered around the world. Only one division of Ford is asking for bail out money, the division that manufactures automobiles for North America. If it were to fail tomorrow (and for the sake of the employees and their jobs I hope it doesn't) it would not mean the end of Ford _______________________________________________
... Sorry to contradict you George, but Ford has sold its satellite divisions at least 10 years ago. It has also sold it's tractor division, its heavy truck division, its daily rental business and a lot its real estate (the RenCen was sold to GM, at least 5 parts depots and regional offices in Canada only, similar situation in the US) Ford parts used to be delivered by Ford employees, now it’s another subcontract and bulk pieces of Ford Credit were also sold aka Primus: financed other makes. As stated at one point they even spun off Visteon (their parts division), it went Chapter 11 and they had to re-integrate their white collar employees to save Ford supply of parts. Much of the engineering is now contract work. The Owner Relations - Customer Complaint division was also sold, they now hire people at minimum wage to respond to customer complaints with the help of software. They are in the North end of Toronto ;( That used to be the entry level position?? Ford's (in)famous President Jack Nasser (See Firestone lawsuit) even wanted to sell the assembly plants but that fell through. Lately I know they sold AstonMartinLandRoverJaguar. They have tried to part with as much of their ‘expensive’ `personnel; Nasser had a $20K bounty for managers who managed to entice people to accept early retirement: the layoffs 3 and 4 years ago targeted people who were 40+ years old had 10+ years , Younger people cost less (medical plan) and newer employees have different pay and pension plans. They have been selling the company off piece by piece and also watering down The Corporate culture. Many of the people left have no passion for automobiles (look down on those who do) and would be better off selling shoes or peanuts.
I haven't looked at the last shareholder report (I threw it out in anger). But I can tell you the major observation with at least Ford is that if you combine the Ford Family and the executives they own more than 60% of votes can decide anything they want. The shareholder meetings are just a formality. To my recollection NO shareholder suggestion has ever been voted YES. Which makes the stock market a glorified collateral asset to borrow money. New models are very expensive to start-up but pay-off well. I remember the shares at $68 , everybody was waiting for a split what are they worth now $4 . So you can see why automakers want a LOAN (Not a bailout). Ford has been expecting this for at least 4 years. (the MBA disease has been to cost less not sell more or better). The view from the executives is that higher salaries attract better management yet it has been a downward spiral for at least 10-12 years. What can we say, Bill is not managing the Company. Mullaly and Fields are the guys running the show on a daily basis. Mullaly salvaged Boeing and Fields used to run Mazda and he is a showman. A Detroit newscaster showed viewers what kind of 2 faced lifestyle he has.
... Sorry to contradict you George, but Ford has sold its satellite divisions at least 10 years ago. It has also sold it's tractor division, its heavy truck division, its daily rental business and a lot its real estate (the RenCen was sold to GM, at least 5 parts depots and regional offices in Canada only, similar situation in the US) Ford parts used to be delivered by Ford employees, now it’s another subcontract and bulk pieces of Ford Credit were also sold aka Primus: financed other makes. As stated at one point they even spun off Visteon (their parts division), it went Chapter 11 and they had to re-integrate their white collar employees to save Ford supply of parts. Much of the engineering is now contract work. The Owner Relations - Customer Complaint division was also sold, they now hire people at minimum wage to respond to customer complaints with the help of software. They are in the North end of Toronto ;( That used to be the entry level position?? Ford's (in)famous President Jack Nasser (See Firestone lawsuit) even wanted to sell the assembly plants but that fell through. Lately I know they sold AstonMartinLandRoverJaguar. They have tried to part with as much of their ‘expensive’ `personnel; Nasser had a $20K bounty for managers who managed to entice people to accept early retirement: the layoffs 3 and 4 years ago targeted people who were 40+ years old had 10+ years , Younger people cost less (medical plan) and newer employees have different pay and pension plans. They have been selling the company off piece by piece and also watering down The Corporate culture. Many of the people left have no passion for automobiles (look down on those who do) and would be better off selling shoes or peanuts.
I haven't looked at the last shareholder report (I threw it out in anger). But I can tell you the major observation with at least Ford is that if you combine the Ford Family and the executives they own more than 60% of votes can decide anything they want. The shareholder meetings are just a formality. To my recollection NO shareholder suggestion has ever been voted YES. Which makes the stock market a glorified collateral asset to borrow money. New models are very expensive to start-up but pay-off well. I remember the shares at $68 , everybody was waiting for a split what are they worth now $4 . So you can see why automakers want a LOAN (Not a bailout). Ford has been expecting this for at least 4 years. (the MBA disease has been to cost less not sell more or better). The view from the executives is that higher salaries attract better management yet it has been a downward spiral for at least 10-12 years. What can we say, Bill is not managing the Company. Mullaly and Fields are the guys running the show on a daily basis. Mullaly salvaged Boeing and Fields used to run Mazda and he is a showman. A Detroit newscaster showed viewers what kind of 2 faced lifestyle he has.
deniscCaretaker of 8MA1244 '70 Euro Mangusta DRIVE THEM, THEY WERE MEANT TO BE DRIVEN, IF YOU WANT TO LOOK AT ONE, BUY A POSTER!
quote:Recently, within the last two years, GM, Toyota, and Honda announced that they would close plants in the continental US and move all manufacturing or at least assembly to Canada. The reason coming mostly from GM with the other two agreeing, that Canada had universal health care. The US does not.
Sorry Doug. GM did not take advantage of this situation. I can tell you that even at 80 cents on the dollar. Canadian auto worker White and Blue collar workers do not make what US workers earn. At the last GM negotiations the Canadian UAW voluntarily gave away 20% ( I think) to save their plant. 2 weeks later GM announced the closure of Oshawa Assembly claiming that Malibus were not good sellers. So either management are liars or they are trying to move jobs to the States or they are holding out to attempt to get subsidies from the Canadian government.
Couple of thoughts.
There was mumbling if you listened close ..that GM is making a fortune in I think it was CHINA and Ford Makes a fortune in South America. The mumbling was ..why dont they take moneys from those divisions to Cross Substidise ...why its illegal ... the share holders will kill them.
Next ... I thought this was a LOAN not a bailout ... if it was a bailout The big 3 would have to answer to the GOverment ... this way they can piss the money away any way they please.
Lastly ...mostly I have owned all Fords .. I did inherit my Ex Wifes AUDI .. 1.8T is a piece of shit. The motor went at 30k miles, trans at 66k mles, then turbo and motor again at 98k miles.
Beware .. there is a good part of American cars that get a bad Rep ..because motors and other major compoents are NOT AMERICAN rmemeber the rule is 51% and you can call it American.
Question : Why havent the big 3 made more fuel efficient cars 30 years ago after the first fuel crisis ?
I say pull out of IRAQ .. save the money we are spending and let them all kill each other .. the economy will come back imediately ... you know why they dont because The ploitiicians are making too much money with goverment contracts with the WAR.
Ron
There was mumbling if you listened close ..that GM is making a fortune in I think it was CHINA and Ford Makes a fortune in South America. The mumbling was ..why dont they take moneys from those divisions to Cross Substidise ...why its illegal ... the share holders will kill them.
Next ... I thought this was a LOAN not a bailout ... if it was a bailout The big 3 would have to answer to the GOverment ... this way they can piss the money away any way they please.
Lastly ...mostly I have owned all Fords .. I did inherit my Ex Wifes AUDI .. 1.8T is a piece of shit. The motor went at 30k miles, trans at 66k mles, then turbo and motor again at 98k miles.
Beware .. there is a good part of American cars that get a bad Rep ..because motors and other major compoents are NOT AMERICAN rmemeber the rule is 51% and you can call it American.
Question : Why havent the big 3 made more fuel efficient cars 30 years ago after the first fuel crisis ?
I say pull out of IRAQ .. save the money we are spending and let them all kill each other .. the economy will come back imediately ... you know why they dont because The ploitiicians are making too much money with goverment contracts with the WAR.
Ron
Sorry Doug. GM did not take advantage of this situation. I can tell you that even at 80 cents on the dollar. Canadian auto worker White and Blue collar workers do not make what US workers earn. At the last GM negotiations the Canadian UAW voluntarily gave away 20% ( I think) to save their plant. 2 weeks later GM announced the closure of Oshawa Assembly claiming that Malibus were not good sellers. So either management are liars or they are trying to move jobs to the States or they are holding out to attempt to get subsidies from the Canadian government.
That's what they told us here in NY, NY. I guess that we get a different portion of the news, the most expensive part?
GM made a statement that they provided health care policies for over 1 million employees and former employees.
That's my statement and I'm holding to it.
I think that part of the problem that many are having with the "Detroit" bailout is that it is US taxpayer money and how does that work out with companies that are partially in Canada and Mexico as well as having "offshore" suppliers. This is all too complicated for me. I have a headache. I'm going to have a couple of Cosmos now. Then I'll be completely out of it for a while.
That's what they told us here in NY, NY. I guess that we get a different portion of the news, the most expensive part?
GM made a statement that they provided health care policies for over 1 million employees and former employees.
That's my statement and I'm holding to it.
I think that part of the problem that many are having with the "Detroit" bailout is that it is US taxpayer money and how does that work out with companies that are partially in Canada and Mexico as well as having "offshore" suppliers. This is all too complicated for me. I have a headache. I'm going to have a couple of Cosmos now. Then I'll be completely out of it for a while.
quote:Yesterday, there aired (on CBC radio) a discussion of automobile manufacturing costs. The Total labour cost portion of the manufacturing cost for a typical NA vehicle was said to be around 5%. The UAW has made repeated responsible consessions to help out the Big 3. I was surprised to learn that in the U.S., the UAW has taken over the running of their members Health Insurance program - It is no longer a GM corporate liability. Also, I learned that there is a two teir wage system that reflects a salary "give back". I wonder what the big executives' "give back" is of their multi-million dollar salaries? As a reference point: Just after the US government gave Billions of TAX dollars to save FanieMAY and FredyMAC, the CEOs made sure they got to walk away with 30 Billion in salaries and bonuses.
5% of a cars price is due to labor...TRUE We were in a training class helad by a PHD and he confirmed this 8 years ago.
Two years ago Bob Lutz's retirement was recalculated to include 3 or 4 years of service Mr Lutz had aquired during the 60's when his automotive career started at GM. His retirement increase due to his added 4 years??? $9 million more a year.
quote:Ford is a diversified global corporation; it manufactures all sorts of things, including satellites, and has divisions and manufacturing plants scattered around the world
GM was the same way also, for years GM made parts for Ford, Chrysler, Tecumseh, Briggs& Stratton, and other companies. In 2000 GM decided that these were not in line with their "Core Business" plan. So they just gave all of this work away. This Core Business was forced upon the leaders of our companies by Money Managers who own very large blocks of the auto industies stocks.
You know why they made all of these parts for these other companies?? Simple to make money plain and simple. Back during the Great Depression these companies did whatever was needed to survive. Guess history was not a good teacher to the "New Management".
quote:that GM is making a fortune in I think it was CHINA
Until very recently GM was selling more cars than they ever have, worldwide.
My question is why arent they making money???
Mr Wagoner stated in one of the hearings when asked about the overseas operations, the question was why arent they bringing that money back here to shore up the North American operations? His reply: China is self-sustaining...all of our profits from China are being rolde back into it's Cina ops????????
GM has built so many assembly plants in China, India, Brazil, Russia, and another is being built in China right now.
Now go figure where all the profits have gone, a new assembly plant costs several billion dollars to build and outfit to run.
There is so much uncertainty at work...all I can say as of today is that I still have a job. Tomorrow I do not know????
Lastly...When I hear these pricks like Sen Shelby and Croker say that the US auto industry needs to cut MY salary to be in line with the US transplants to make our companies viable??? PLEASE do you think Volkswagon, BMW, Frieghtliner, pay their people in Europe the same as they pay the people here?? I can say with confidence they make more then their US countparts, plus they have such better workers rights laws then we have here.
I feel Senator Shelby should return his $174,000 a year salary with automatic pay raises yearly(unless they vote not to take a pay raise that year) and refuse his lifetime pension and health care that cosy him NADA.
So that he can be more like us shop rats.
One more
quote:Ford parts used to be delivered by Ford employees, now it’s another subcontract and bulk pieces of Ford Credit were also sold aka Primus: financed other
This used to be a GM employee's job also. The main contractor who delivers GM's parts is owned by famed racecar driver now businessman Roger Penske, who is in line to be the Car Czar.
Thanks for listening to my rant.
Jeff
My edit, sorry for all the typos. After rereading my post I'm just ready to go to bed.
Wait....There's more...
And the hits keep coming...!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081210/ap_on_go_co/judicial_pay_raise/print
And the hits keep coming...!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081210/ap_on_go_co/judicial_pay_raise/print
Another thing I just thought of, puzzling about why you Americans do what you do...
I worked 9 years at Eastman Kodak. I read a book about the company called Changing Focus. In that book was a chapter about how it hit people hard when they were laid off due to competition from Fuji (and we all know Japan protects their home base). The chapter was about a well off married couple, both working for Eastman Kodak in Rochester. Eventually they both got laid off, a disaster for them of course. But what struck me most was that the husband blamed the American people for buying Fuji instead of supporting American businesses and jobs. But guess what he had in his garage: two German cars and one Swedish car.
That's a thing that's often puzzled me about some Americans, they seem to think that anything foreign is better. Just my $0.02
I worked 9 years at Eastman Kodak. I read a book about the company called Changing Focus. In that book was a chapter about how it hit people hard when they were laid off due to competition from Fuji (and we all know Japan protects their home base). The chapter was about a well off married couple, both working for Eastman Kodak in Rochester. Eventually they both got laid off, a disaster for them of course. But what struck me most was that the husband blamed the American people for buying Fuji instead of supporting American businesses and jobs. But guess what he had in his garage: two German cars and one Swedish car.
That's a thing that's often puzzled me about some Americans, they seem to think that anything foreign is better. Just my $0.02
The thing to do is to support the industry from immediate colapse. Give it more time to react. Perhaps the lowered price of gas will create a little sales boom in light trucks temporarily.
The double dealing in Washington is well under way. The scum is rising to the top. Sen Shelby in particular was one of the supporters of the bailout plan initially.
Now, the conservative Republicans have banded together to show that they have some power. Shelby is at the head of that group. Only God knows how I dispise that name now.
Apparently their position is that even though George W. wants the bailout the Republican Senators want to show that they have some power after the recent elections. Particularly since Bush has been working with Barney Frank on the wording of the bill. The Republican Senators apparently are hoping that the industry will crash so that they can blame it all on Bush and the Democrats and distance themselves from them both. This is part of the plan to revitalize the Republican party.
I still say that political accountabilaty should be in the form of the Guillatine, but so far it looks like it's just me that feels that way.
Oh, also, since when did the US Congress know how to build, desigh or sell a vehicle? They are all assholes and it seems that with their grandstanding one is bigger then the other. Maybe the only honest politician left is the Governor of Illinois?
Yes I too have noticed that these are largely southern state Senators with vested interest in Japanese auto manufacturers in their states. What a coincidence hey? Sen Reid from Nevada says he still has enough support to get the bill through the Senate unless there is a filabuster.
Maybe the only thing to do is for the President to issue an Executive order for aid? Aide? What kind of aide you say? Well Kool Aide of course.
What a bunch of assholes. Later.
The double dealing in Washington is well under way. The scum is rising to the top. Sen Shelby in particular was one of the supporters of the bailout plan initially.
Now, the conservative Republicans have banded together to show that they have some power. Shelby is at the head of that group. Only God knows how I dispise that name now.
Apparently their position is that even though George W. wants the bailout the Republican Senators want to show that they have some power after the recent elections. Particularly since Bush has been working with Barney Frank on the wording of the bill. The Republican Senators apparently are hoping that the industry will crash so that they can blame it all on Bush and the Democrats and distance themselves from them both. This is part of the plan to revitalize the Republican party.
I still say that political accountabilaty should be in the form of the Guillatine, but so far it looks like it's just me that feels that way.
Oh, also, since when did the US Congress know how to build, desigh or sell a vehicle? They are all assholes and it seems that with their grandstanding one is bigger then the other. Maybe the only honest politician left is the Governor of Illinois?
Yes I too have noticed that these are largely southern state Senators with vested interest in Japanese auto manufacturers in their states. What a coincidence hey? Sen Reid from Nevada says he still has enough support to get the bill through the Senate unless there is a filabuster.
Maybe the only thing to do is for the President to issue an Executive order for aid? Aide? What kind of aide you say? Well Kool Aide of course.
What a bunch of assholes. Later.
This is quite something to watch, especially for those of us with friends & family in the auto manufacturing business.
I am fundamentally against any government bailout for any business, however as stated in this thread they would be putting hundreds of thousands, if not millions of jobs in jeopardy if they do not do the bailout loan. It is amazing they can't get a 15B loan when the fat cats in banking get 750B payouts for being terrible managers. I am wondering if I can triple my salary & bankrupt my company. Will the government bail me out because of my bad management?
This is especially sad when you see - in both Canada and the US - this bailout controversy is being used as a playing card in a political poker game between parties. Just goes to show how we are all pawns.
Final food for thought:
A few years ago the government said they didn't have any money for environmental concerns. How far ahead do you think we would be now if we spent just a small fraction of the big bailout money on research for recycling, alternative energy and sustainable resources?
We might even be creating jobs and leading the world...
I am fundamentally against any government bailout for any business, however as stated in this thread they would be putting hundreds of thousands, if not millions of jobs in jeopardy if they do not do the bailout loan. It is amazing they can't get a 15B loan when the fat cats in banking get 750B payouts for being terrible managers. I am wondering if I can triple my salary & bankrupt my company. Will the government bail me out because of my bad management?
This is especially sad when you see - in both Canada and the US - this bailout controversy is being used as a playing card in a political poker game between parties. Just goes to show how we are all pawns.
Final food for thought:
A few years ago the government said they didn't have any money for environmental concerns. How far ahead do you think we would be now if we spent just a small fraction of the big bailout money on research for recycling, alternative energy and sustainable resources?
We might even be creating jobs and leading the world...
Well looks like the White House might work to help the auto industry. Lets see.
I heard that Ron Gettelfinger held a news conference today here it is if youd like to hear his take on the political process they went through.
Press Conference
Jeff
I heard that Ron Gettelfinger held a news conference today here it is if youd like to hear his take on the political process they went through.
Press Conference
Jeff
I don't think they should bailout. They won't be able to compete with other car manufactures anyways.