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True Confessions of a 2015 Pantera Sale

ahudsonahudsonMember
WARNING: This is a long post. If you're interested in the topic, I hope this helps.

From offering my car for sale recently, it seems a few things happened, that may help as a cross section of the market. Hopefully this'll help a few buyers or sellers. My opinions are just that, and definitely non scientific.

Here's the general outline of the process, telling you stuff that most don't, and I hope it'll give some insight to prove valuable

1. Though a smarter 'marketing move' might've been to advertise simultaneously into:
> PI
> POCA
> SCM
> Hemmings
> Ebay
> Affluent forums
> Trader Online
> Cars.com

I chose to only go into PI and one other forum for 10 days before hitting the others. Why? I'm very lazy, and do not like fielding 8,000 emails to find the 10 people interested.

My '10 day criteria' was since the entire group represented 4 million viewers and the two forum approach represented maybe 35,000 viewers, so 1/10th of the market, but far better qualified.

2. From PI and Fchat, I had 9 inquiries. I instantly ruled out 3 "how much is it" inquirers because a) the price was in the 400 word ad and I don't communicate well with window shopping scanners and b) if price was the primary criteria, this was the wrong car.

3. Why a 400 word ad? (See 'lazy' comment above.) The more questions 'answered' in the ad, the fewer repetitive questions you get, and if you DO get those, you either have a non reader or an un serious prospect. Sorry, but this ruled out people for what I consider the right reasons.

4. Of the remaining 6 inquiries, 5 were US, 1 was Germany. Of USA: 1 from NY, 2 from TX, 1 from MI, 1 from FL. First caller (NY) is a very busy professional, great call (45 mins) but hired an 'intermediary' advisor/body person to intervene and re-begin the query on the car. (See 'lazy' comment.) I mean zero disrespect bc this is a perfectly acceptable 'due diligence' procedure, but this stalled the flow greatly, allowing the ultimate buyer to jump ahead.

The other prospects were a combination of 'let me get back with you' and 'soon as I look at the pictures/ get my financing/ call my deceased aunt for a seance to see if this is 'right'/ whatever. One of the TX prospects was ready to buy on call number one. Said he was 'dead serious' and this car was 'just what he'd been looking for'. On his second email he said, "I'll take it, will wire a deposit".

This mysteriously never happened. To me, credibility is the combination of verbal and actual. (If this is you and you're reading this, sorry. You could've had bad 'life' things intervene. Just saying my take on the receiving end.)

Yet in the ensuing 24 hours, the MI prospect was very diligent, very persistent, followed through as promised. If a call was promised, he called. If an email, he emailed. I tried to comply with my end as well.

**
The turn of events seemed to happen at the request and acceptance of sending a deposit to secure the car for the MI prospect to arrive.
**

Once this happened, I could legitimately say, "I have a deposit" which puts everyone else in second place, instead of the incessantly screwed up, "I'll get back with you" or "Hold it for me" or "Yeah, I trust you" which opens the door to someone's feelings getting very hurt.

As expected, once the deposit was received, two of the remaining prospects became very insistent, protective, or postured for their spot in line. Fine. My job was NOT to make pals, or entertain endless questions. My job was to transfer ownership to the person willing to make a sound, educated decision with commitment.

Sorry for going all capitalist, but that's the deal. If you're actually shopping to BUY, be courteous to a seller who - like I - might be having a hard time with the emotional part of selling. But realize this may be 'fun' to you, it's not a game to the seller.

Fortunately, real buyers usually show themselves quickly.

Once the deposit was paid, and the prospect showed up, of course the rest was formality. (Or it was to me since I tend to overwhelm with information, such as this post!)

Interestingly or expectedly as you choose, the callers were all very interested in originality. What was done for reliability vs just 'personal'? What OEM parts were saved? Were the mods reversible?

To me, the above represents one end of the shift from the former 'anything goes' mentality with Panteras. OEM now seems respectfully appreciated.

The other end are the nicely, but significantly modded cars. (You want one of the 'best of' in this category? Check David B's.) They're out there. Interestingly, neither the OEM nor the 'resto modded' cars are cheap to build or keep, yet the vision with each is clear.

The murky middle is, to me, dead.

The backyard builder, the half finished project, the "I thought lime green flames and orange velour looked great together" days are over.

So, that's my take on the current state of affairs in the Pantera world.

I apologize for the length of this post, but hope you find this of value.

I welcome your comments!
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A azfast1Member
A small correction to your very informative post on selling a very nice car in the current market.
The gentleman from NY you referred to did not "hire" a body shop person. I am that person, and am the one that sent him the link from Ferrari Chat before the post was deleted by the admin.
as I thought it was a really nice car based on watching your previous posts on both F Chat and this forum.
I did this for no monetary gain, just to help a friend find a nice car. The only concerns were the very minor paint bubbling and a few other very minor details which I asked about. Being a 35 year plus body shop owner who has had the honor of restoring anything from a Ferrari 250 GTO, Ford GT40 1074, as well as many others during the last 35 plus years, I tried to make it clear I was not questioning you as the owner, or insulting the car. As I mentioned in an email,my friend had offered to fly me out to inspect the car, but I did not have the time to do so. Funny thing, when I sent him the link on your car, he had Mike Drew flying out to Canada to inspect another Pantera at the same time!
I can tell you he is kicking himself for not acting on my recommendation to buy yours as it was priced below market. Again, congrats on the sale!
Glenn
hustlerhustlerMember
I've noticed a growing trend of buyers (strangers) introducing their personal financial or health related problems into purchase discussions/communications as well lately. I just went through selling 2 cars and a boat in recent weeks and also had someone disclose they were pulling money from their 401k to me which I felt was uncomfortable about knowing. Why would they need to disclose how they were financing the purchase unless they were looking for sympathy? The excuse did prevent me from moving to the next buyer for 10 days which in reality was just a means to buy time. It's not my decision whether pulling money from their retirement is a good or bad choice for them. These buyers are strangers to me and while I don't mind casual conversation, I'm not responsible for making these personal decisions to buy these toys for them.

Word of advice is to keep the personal crap out of conversations, it is a huge turnoff. I'm sorry your (insert family member here) has an illness and its why you blew me off, but be honest and communicate that if its real and either bow out or give me a date for some kind of commitment. The seller can then determine whether they want to hold other interests out for yours.

Lastly I was in the process of selling another collector vehicle that was unfortunately involved in a wreck and was subsequently under-priced on craigslist given it's state. After receiving many inquiries and not one ready to see the car without more legwork of pictures etc. I responded to all inquiries at once to put their best offer in and I would show it in that order to weed out the BS. This prompted an email via craigslist to the ad from a member of that vehicle's community proceeding to deride me for essentially "turning said vehicle into a pariah. with a bidding war" The person said I should have put the car on ebay. I find it amazing someone had the gall to tell me how to sell my car and how I should use craigslist. It became obvious one of his friends was one of the initial interests in the car. Apparently after I told them to put in their best offer, it probably put their friend out of the running and left them pissed off because they didn't get the car at the price they wanted.

While I'm sure on the surface it appears that I was being greedy, the reality was I was weeding through the folks who were inquiring from out of state when I specifically stated in the ad that I was not dealing with anyone out of state and I would not ship or deal with arranged shipping.

So word of advice is to be very up front in your ads about expectations, include as many details as you can, and get the buyers off their a$$, otherwise they may hold up another real buyer while you mess around with the BS'ers.
demopuardemopuarMember
Excellent write up. Very interesting to read about how others have done this.

My approach is simple -- first one with all of my terms gets it (each transaction is different). Anything other than that means it's available. I let all suitors know this up front so there's no question how this goes. There's no waiting for this or that, no holding the car for the weekend. First one with my terms gets it, simple as that. Some cars you can sell for cash because of the amount, others it is impractical. I'm sure you get the idea where I'm coming from -- it works very well for me.
O osofastMember
quote:
Originally posted by DeMopuar:
Excellent write up. Very interesting to read about how others have done this.

My approach is simple -- first one with all of my terms gets it (each transaction is different). Anything other than that means it's available. I let all suitors know this up front so there's no question how this goes. There's no waiting for this or that, no holding the car for the weekend. First one with my terms gets it, simple as that. Some cars you can sell for cash because of the amount, others it is impractical. I'm sure you get the idea where I'm coming from -- it works very well for
me.

Thanks for the great story Adams, and sorry to see your cat leave!!!!
DeMopuar I use your same philosophy on selling, I had one gentleman tell me when he was coming to look at a truck I had for sale. It was four or five days away from when we spoke. I clearly told him it was still for sale, and the first person with the money gets the truck. Well I sold it to another person the morning the first guy said he had planned on being there. As soon as I knew it was sold I called him to let him know it was not available any longer. Boy did I get a earful, and hundreds of texts, death threats, and boy was it a sight. it got so bad I did internet searches, located who and where he lived. I called his home number and his wife answered and she too gave me a earful, next was their local law enforcement offices. The Sheriff were very understanding, and they informed me they new this guy very well. They went to his house and talked to his wife. Was very neat to get the call from the Sheriff that they had had a nice talk with her, and then to have a silent phone so quickly!!!!
Hope I didn't hijack your thread to bad Adams.
4nhotrod4nhotrodHe who dies with the most toys is dead
I agree with most of the points except it gets tough for an "out of town" serious buyer to set up an inspection if the seller won't hold it for a few days. But, as a seller, I understand that he will not know if the potential buyer is just wasting his time.
Just as all of the others here, I've heard all the stories from the buyers. Its a tough job weading out all the clowns.
quickittyquickittyMember
If I need someone to hold a car for a couple of days, I offer a deposit. If a car is described to be a condition that I find acceptable(I often ask a lot of specific questions), I have no problem sending $500 through Paypal. I usually do a Google search of the sellers name before I send the deposit. That has saved me from scammers more than once.
When I get there to look at the car, if it is not as described and I cant recover my deposit, I look at it as part of the game and usually the best $500 spent.
If someone is going to hire an inspection, they are serious. May I offer a strong suggestion to anyone that is having an inspection done on their car. Request a written copy of the inspection. Make the request before they schedule the inspection.
Ask the company that is doing the inspection to provide a inspector that is familiar with Panteras. Ask to speak to the inspector before he comes to your house, ask how many Panteras he has inspected, ask Pantera specific questions. A lot of these so called professional inspectors have never even seen a Pantera. A lot of them hire "bone headed" Mechanics that only know how to cover their check list. These inspection companies have nothing to lose by giving a good car a bad report. When they go to the client and tell them that the floors are full of undercoating that must be hiding something. They just don't know that all Panteas have undercoating. I will not allow an inspection company near one of my cars unless they are willing to provide me a copy of the report. This holds them accountable.
I do understand the frustration that can accompany selling a car. On the other hand, trying to buy one is often just as bad.
ahudsonahudsonMember
What a great discussion! Fun to hear of other's experiences, ideas. Plus how both sides view the same transaction, but very differently. Seems open communication and setting expectations are the common threads to success.

And for Glenn, forgive my not knowing yours and the prospect's business arrangement, and for my poor choice of 'body man' vs restorer, if that's more correct. Anyway, point is, if it was nice and underpriced, action would've served better than deliberation, but I totally understand, and things work out as they should.

On a very specific level of the transaction, it also appears that securing a car with a deposit to show both seriousness and 'save your spot in line' is a good technique if there's enough trust established. (My first book, 'How to Buy or Sell a Car by Long Distance' written before the internet - or possibly even Al Gore - was born, still promoted this approach.)

In this overheated market, when millions transact at auctions every weekend, dozens of online auctions are an index finger away, and anyone with a decent ability to 'search' can have the car, year, miles, condition, history and price all show up in their inbox, the 'new' methods of getting the deal done take some adjustment.

Great input folks. Has got to help those on both sides of the transaction. Keep it coming
tomcattomcatMember
quote:
Originally posted by Hustler:
While I'm sure on the surface it appears that I was being greedy, the reality was I was weeding through the folks who were inquiring from out of state when I specifically stated in the ad that I was not dealing with anyone out of state and I would not ship or deal with arranged shipping.


I agree with the inconvenience of dealing with this stuff...one way to keep the prospective buyers pool open is to offer the vehicle/goods "ExWorks the public street in front of my house" (once the payment is made in full).
hustlerhustlerMember
Yeah in that particular case I was dealing with a vehicle under 5k on clist, so I could afford to exclude out-of-state buyers. If I was dealing with something worth over 10k where my audience of select buyers are spread across the US or abroad I would obviously be more open to working with a buyer with those needs. I should have clarified that. Its all relative to what your time is worth when fielding interest for something.
garth66garth66"When speed is the only thing that counts"
Great discussion! I had a similar experience selling a vintage Airstream trailer a few years ago.

I was very clear as to condition description and pictures, and insisted my price was firm and I wanted the buyer to see the trailer so they wouldn't be disappointed (it was in solid unmolested original condition, but needed to be restored). I wanted to make sure no one thought they were getting a brand new never used 1967 trailer. EVERYONE, other than the ultimate buyer, tried to offer less than my asking price AND wanted me to "hold it" for them until they could make arrangements to inspect the trailer. But, only one buyer agreed to my asking price up-front and wired me a 50% deposit. She also arranged for her father to fly out and inspect it later that same day since she couldn't make the trip herself. Her father showed up when scheduled, confirmed that the trailer was exactly as represented, and handed me the balance of payment.

Another potential buyer who hadn't confirmed if he was coming or not, and also didn't return any of my calls or messages, showed up unexpectedly shortly after I concluded the sale and became very upset and belligerent that I sold it "without giving him a chance to buy it," telling me that he would have paid more than my asking price! Funny thing is, when I talked to him on the phone the day before he kept trying to offer me at least 20% less than my asking price, and never offered to provide a deposit to "hold it" until he could come inspect it. As a matter of fact, the 4 other "serious" buyers (those I deemed to be more than tire kickers) who all had been trying to make low-ball offers ALL were upset once they found out it was sold, and ALL said they "would have paid more than my asking price," and one even offered to drive up from SoCal that same day and bring me 10% more than my asking price if I'd cancel the existing sale and sell to him! The funny thing is, not one of them made any such offers when the trailer was available!

Honesty, integrity, full disclosure, and open communication are the hallmarks of a successful transaction. My buyer was thrilled to get the trailer at my asking price, recognizing it was a fair price, maybe even a good deal given the scarcity of these things in unmolested condition, and we both had a very positive experience dealing with one another.

She kept in touch with me throughout the restoration and sent regular updates and pics as the trailer was being restored. And we're friends now!

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hustlerhustlerMember
heh, the "serious" line doesn't mean squat until they commit to the earlier available opportunity to see the item. If they are lowballing the item before they even see it in person, huge red flag there as well. They aren't serious. "Have cash" is like a running joke to me. Like anyone will take any other form of payment particularly on clist. I have established communication with members on this forum and I will do paypal with trusted members, but clist is always cash with strangers.
plt-1plt-1Member
I'm dealing with selling my hideout on the river, and there are endless tire kickers. Even though is says NOT FOR RENT, we still get a call once a week asking if we would consider renting it... We started telling people we are not available "right now" or "real quick" to look at it. Instead we started telling people, yes we can show it to you on Tuesday at 1100, this weeds out the tire kickers for us....
MT mike the snake (Guest)
I would think if anyone is serious about buying such an expensive car would cough up the dough for an independent pre-purchase inspection. That shows IMO they are serious, because they're already spending $200-plus just to have the car checked out.

I am guilty of not doing this, and have paid dearly for it.
ahudsonahudsonMember
Though we've ventured far from just car transactions, the general umbrella of commerce remains. And that is surely instructive.

You guys - and ladies, in case I'm overlooking anyone - have been an inspiration on this, reminding me of what to do, what NOT to do.

In my continuing divestiture (a fancy word word for raking cash off the table), I had my former garage for sale. I have moved my cars and junk to a different building closer to our 'new' home, so this building was just empty.

We had a bunch of window shoppers and the poor realtor dealt with more than I did. Yet he was young, super professional, but not a closer.

I just met a prospect over there, interestingly enough a car guy. We spoke, talked of the good and bad, showed him my receipts for building upgrades (not 'expenses' you'll note), showed him the past 2 years' utility bills.

He was very educated in the market, had looked at tons of stuff. We negotiated briefly, agreed on a price. And though he's a trustable zillionaire having done dozens more deals this week than I'll do in a lifetime, I said, "I'll need $5grand earnest money to get the contract drawn."

A longish pause as he takes out his checkbook and says, "Sure.... I'm glad to deal with someone who can make a decision." Check in hand, I now *almost* have yet another thing out of my life that was nibbling my brain cells while I slept.

Hope this has been as helpful to others as your posts have been to me.
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