Turkey shoot.
Watch this GT-5 pick off the victims.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj5twj2FXFs
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
I...I...... .......I think I need a cigarette now... 
That is an amazing video and what a sound!
That car runs well and he can drive. Who says the ZF can't be shifted and 5.7 Clevelands don't go? Really?
Try this with your stroker.
Try this with your stroker.
Jeez man, he's just walkin right through there like nothin'... That would sure make it much, much more fun..lol..
Also, if you just watch the car and telemetry it seems like the car is not really working that hard. But, he sure is busy, it's a bit deceiving...
Also, if you just watch the car and telemetry it seems like the car is not really working that hard. But, he sure is busy, it's a bit deceiving...
Nothing accelerates like a vehicle powered by a 351C. Between turns the engine just revs its heart out for the driver.
That is one well sorted car and engine. 6500-7000 shifts and as much as 1.7 g lateral g's is pretty serious for such old tech.
quote:Originally posted by George P:
Nothing accelerates like a vehicle powered by a 351C. Between turns the engine just revs its heart out for the driver.
I think it pulls better than a 427 Cobra. The Cobra has just too much torque at every place.
The Cleveland is balanced just right for this.
If you follow the video you will notice not even one little squiggle coming out of the turns and getting flat out on the accelerator?
Other cars, including the 911's are wiggly under the hammer.
This is all on race tires too which is like driving on a frozen lake flat out.
The Pantera is one of the best balanced cars there is, and after all, wasn't that the point?
Excellent example of Trackable/Useable Horsepower!
I would have liked to view the operating temperatures of the engine & gearbox.
How HOT was the water/ engine/trans oil?!
...Mark
I would have liked to view the operating temperatures of the engine & gearbox.
How HOT was the water/ engine/trans oil?!
...Markquote:Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
Excellent example of Trackable/Useable Horsepower!
I would have liked to view the operating temperatures of the engine & gearbox.
How HOT was the water/ engine/trans oil?!
The race cars generally just need an oil cooler added to them and either a 160 thermostat or none at all.
From experience you only need an oil cooler if you are going to consistently run over about 220 F.
The factory found a naturally vented area for the oil cooler in the Pantera. It is in the right rear wheel well with the cooler mounted inside of the "splash shield" and louvered.
The natural motion of the circulation of the tire causes a negative air pressure drop over the oil cooler radiator while the car is in motion.
The water temp then almost becomes irrelevant. As long as you don't boil over, you are ok.
That won't happen to about 252F with a 16 psi cap and a 50/50 mixture.
I doubt that the race car engines run particularly hot.
The ZF, I don't know BUT so far have not seen a separate oil cooler for one.
For that matter, Mustang race cars transmissions are not an issue for running hot, HOWEVER lots of them need a cooler and pump for the rear end.
Impressive. First thought it was just another computergame.
Could anyone of you cleveland-wizards enlighten me on what is needed to build one engine like that? What is that engine made of?
I know you probably don't know exactly, but... Thanks.
Could anyone of you cleveland-wizards enlighten me on what is needed to build one engine like that? What is that engine made of?
I know you probably don't know exactly, but... Thanks.
It probably is your basic 10.5:1 to 11.1 cr iron head Cleveland. It does have a cam in it. Probably something like the CompCams 294 solid lifter.
That and a nice valve job will give you right around 500hp and 500 ft-lbs of torque with a power range exactly of what was being shown, roughly 5000 rpm to 7000 rpm.
Right there that combination is difficult to beat.
You can milk more out of it with a nice set of aluminum high port heads, 180 headers and maybe Webers.
That would give you roughly another 100 to 125hp real horsepower.
a 600 to a 650 hp engine with 5.7 L is not that difficult to do at all.
It is just a souped up iron Cleveland.
That and a nice valve job will give you right around 500hp and 500 ft-lbs of torque with a power range exactly of what was being shown, roughly 5000 rpm to 7000 rpm.
Right there that combination is difficult to beat.
You can milk more out of it with a nice set of aluminum high port heads, 180 headers and maybe Webers.
That would give you roughly another 100 to 125hp real horsepower.
a 600 to a 650 hp engine with 5.7 L is not that difficult to do at all.
It is just a souped up iron Cleveland.
Thanks, sounds easy. 
What kind of valvetrain? Light valves? Steel or alu rockers?
And how many miles could be expected with such abuse?
Lot's of questions...
What kind of valvetrain? Light valves? Steel or alu rockers?
And how many miles could be expected with such abuse?
Lot's of questions...
From normal wear and tear with no broken parts, I've seen these engines go easy 15 to 20 thousand miles.
You will probably want to freshen the valve seats at some point and if you are going to run solid lifters then you will need to adjust them "periodicity" for wear. Maybe every 5,000 miles?
Rollerized rocker arms will reduce valve train wear very significantly and a nice set of stainless steel valves is all you need.
Some builders will install bronze valve guides with them which I will not argue with, and some will recommend sleeving the lifter bores but that in my mind was always just optional on an under 7,000 rpm engine.
Virtually any engine builder can build you a 500hp Cleveland now with virtually off of the shelf items.
Dan Jones has shown 4v iron heads with a nice three angle valve job will flow right around 300cfm on the intakes.
Going over 550 or so starts to get tricky.
There are a couple of in car videos of Panteras on the track and if you notice it isn't really necessary to go much over 6,500 rpms.
Their power range is right in that 4,500 to 6,500 rpm range which for this engine is a piece of cake.
Mr.Pence is going to point out and remind everyone I am sure that the initial intention of the 4v Clevleand engine was an easy obtainable 500hp and an engine that revs very easily and safely. I will agree with that statement before he even makes it.
You will probably want to freshen the valve seats at some point and if you are going to run solid lifters then you will need to adjust them "periodicity" for wear. Maybe every 5,000 miles?
Rollerized rocker arms will reduce valve train wear very significantly and a nice set of stainless steel valves is all you need.
Some builders will install bronze valve guides with them which I will not argue with, and some will recommend sleeving the lifter bores but that in my mind was always just optional on an under 7,000 rpm engine.
Virtually any engine builder can build you a 500hp Cleveland now with virtually off of the shelf items.
Dan Jones has shown 4v iron heads with a nice three angle valve job will flow right around 300cfm on the intakes.
Going over 550 or so starts to get tricky.
There are a couple of in car videos of Panteras on the track and if you notice it isn't really necessary to go much over 6,500 rpms.
Their power range is right in that 4,500 to 6,500 rpm range which for this engine is a piece of cake.
Mr.Pence is going to point out and remind everyone I am sure that the initial intention of the 4v Clevleand engine was an easy obtainable 500hp and an engine that revs very easily and safely. I will agree with that statement before he even makes it.
Thanks. Good old iron.
I guess further engine discussion should be taken in the engine section.
I searched for more videos of this car on the Tube, but found just lot's of inside videos like his one.
Anyone know where to see the rest of this machine? ehh on the web..
I guess further engine discussion should be taken in the engine section.
I searched for more videos of this car on the Tube, but found just lot's of inside videos like his one.
Anyone know where to see the rest of this machine? ehh on the web..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reFkWi6C_44
Doesn't look like a Cleveland block to me. MOst likely an SVO block with billet crank ,good rods,custom pistons.
Ron
Doesn't look like a Cleveland block to me. MOst likely an SVO block with billet crank ,good rods,custom pistons.
Ron
Hard to say definitely unless you see the front of the block. It has Cleveland heads- the rocker covers have the extra bolts, but Cleveland heads fit a 351-W or SVO block too. With a black painted block it's VERY hard to see if there's a (plugged?) oil pressure boss on the right above the bellhousing. And the way it pulls, I also suspect it's more than 5.7 liters. Maybe Roland would know- his shop preps some of the Euro vintage racers.
I don't think that you can run the ZF with dependability like that shown in these videos with much more than the stock displacement.
The ZF run in the Ford GT40 is not significantly different than in the Pantera.
The Ford teams found it was sufficient for the 289 but was incapable of handling the 427.
Stroked 5.7's are in the torque production categories of that 427 engine, if not more.
Explain to me how the ZF can be beefed up now when it couldn't be then?
The way power is being applied in this video in particular in the 5,500 to 6,500 rpm range, coming out of every turn would be hitting it with a hammer on every acceleration.
I'm not saying poppycock, I'm saying show me?
A healthy updated C almost with every published dyno shows 495 to 500 ft-lbs at 5,000 rpms.
I think that is enough torque to run the car this way and when matched to the 550 hp at 6,500 rpm explains the ease of acceleration.
A race quality block is a smart thing to do if you want to reduce the rebuilds but it isn't necessary for a part time track car.
The difference in tensile strength between a nodular iron crankshaft and a forged steel one, 95,000 vs 100,000 psi, is not the reason to use one in a race engine.
It is to reduce the amount of bearing embedment in the main journals and as a result reduces the amount of times the crank needs to be recut BUT it increases the amount of harmonic vibration transmitted into the block bulkheads.
Anyway you look at it though, this is just an academic discussion.
The greatest cause of wear and tear on the engine is going to be in the valve train and that is going to happen in the 7,000 to 8,500 rpm operating ranges.
There the life of the engine is measured in running minutes like you would do with an aircraft engine.
I think also for a road race Cleveland, 6,500 is around where that engine starts to develop detrimental harmonics that are difficult to eliminate?
The heavy Boss balancer is aimed at that rpm. The 4v balance up to about 6,000rpm.
It was in the hands of the Bonzi Ford race teams that were GIVEN these engines and parts for FREE under the term of "experimental" by Ford, the production block would EVENTUALLY crack through one of the main bulkheads and up into one of the cylinders.
How high was the compression ratio in them also? Running on pure race gas, it wasn't 10:1?
When I was looking for an "Australian block", many of the ones I saw (about 6) were cracked through one of the thrust points in the bores.
The thicker bulkheads didn't work on those blocks? I think the issue is the harmonics were never looked at as the problem? A nodular iron crank absorbs more of those harmonics then the steel crank does making it easier on the block.
Anyway, that is just a great running Pantera with a really good driver and maybe the way he closes on the other cars is because he is a more experienced driver and the other cars, irregardless of how impressive their appearances may be (935 Porsches, etc) are too amateurish drivers just out for a weekend thrill?
I like the Lamboghini's out there but how race car worthy is a Countach and a Miura?
I do agree that the Pantera runs so well that it makes it suspicious that anyone could get a 357 to run so well...while it was running...it was a DNF wasn't it?
The ZF run in the Ford GT40 is not significantly different than in the Pantera.
The Ford teams found it was sufficient for the 289 but was incapable of handling the 427.
Stroked 5.7's are in the torque production categories of that 427 engine, if not more.
Explain to me how the ZF can be beefed up now when it couldn't be then?
The way power is being applied in this video in particular in the 5,500 to 6,500 rpm range, coming out of every turn would be hitting it with a hammer on every acceleration.
I'm not saying poppycock, I'm saying show me?
A healthy updated C almost with every published dyno shows 495 to 500 ft-lbs at 5,000 rpms.
I think that is enough torque to run the car this way and when matched to the 550 hp at 6,500 rpm explains the ease of acceleration.
A race quality block is a smart thing to do if you want to reduce the rebuilds but it isn't necessary for a part time track car.
The difference in tensile strength between a nodular iron crankshaft and a forged steel one, 95,000 vs 100,000 psi, is not the reason to use one in a race engine.
It is to reduce the amount of bearing embedment in the main journals and as a result reduces the amount of times the crank needs to be recut BUT it increases the amount of harmonic vibration transmitted into the block bulkheads.
Anyway you look at it though, this is just an academic discussion.
The greatest cause of wear and tear on the engine is going to be in the valve train and that is going to happen in the 7,000 to 8,500 rpm operating ranges.
There the life of the engine is measured in running minutes like you would do with an aircraft engine.
I think also for a road race Cleveland, 6,500 is around where that engine starts to develop detrimental harmonics that are difficult to eliminate?
The heavy Boss balancer is aimed at that rpm. The 4v balance up to about 6,000rpm.
It was in the hands of the Bonzi Ford race teams that were GIVEN these engines and parts for FREE under the term of "experimental" by Ford, the production block would EVENTUALLY crack through one of the main bulkheads and up into one of the cylinders.
How high was the compression ratio in them also? Running on pure race gas, it wasn't 10:1?
When I was looking for an "Australian block", many of the ones I saw (about 6) were cracked through one of the thrust points in the bores.
The thicker bulkheads didn't work on those blocks? I think the issue is the harmonics were never looked at as the problem? A nodular iron crank absorbs more of those harmonics then the steel crank does making it easier on the block.
Anyway, that is just a great running Pantera with a really good driver and maybe the way he closes on the other cars is because he is a more experienced driver and the other cars, irregardless of how impressive their appearances may be (935 Porsches, etc) are too amateurish drivers just out for a weekend thrill?
I like the Lamboghini's out there but how race car worthy is a Countach and a Miura?
I do agree that the Pantera runs so well that it makes it suspicious that anyone could get a 357 to run so well...while it was running...it was a DNF wasn't it?
He has to comply with FIAs homologation form #3047
I the class he's running they have to run iron std block and heads.
They can change crank, rods and pistons, but have to stay with std bore and stroke.
Porting is allowed but the port cross section area and measures can't be changed.
I know the Danish Panteras that ran a few years ago were using australian Blocks - the US Blocks being too weak and cracking the cylinders. They were about 530 HP with Webers and 180s
I the class he's running they have to run iron std block and heads.
They can change crank, rods and pistons, but have to stay with std bore and stroke.
Porting is allowed but the port cross section area and measures can't be changed.
I know the Danish Panteras that ran a few years ago were using australian Blocks - the US Blocks being too weak and cracking the cylinders. They were about 530 HP with Webers and 180s
quote:Originally posted by Push1267:
He has to comply with FIAs homologation form #3047
I the class he's running they have to run iron std block and heads.
They can change crank, rods and pistons, but have to stay with std bore and stroke.
Porting is allowed but the port cross section area and measures can't be changed.
I know the Danish Panteras that ran a few years ago were using australian Blocks - the US Blocks being too weak and cracking the cylinders. They were about 530 HP with Webers and 180s
Some rules allow a substitute. Do they allow a substitute for the Australian block? Those are very difficult to find these days.
They must use the same firing order also.