Looking for intake for weber 351 cleveland. Has 4 x weber 48 and 289 intake. Anyone that one is collecting dust in the garage or basement?
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I have a friend who has two manifolds for sale. One is as cast, the other has been polished and plumbed for vacuum. It would need to be cleaned up and re-polished but is in good shape. Let me know if you are interested. Pricing around $1,000.00 each.
Forest
forestg (at) att (dot) net
Forest
forestg (at) att (dot) net
I send you a pm, but looked at Hall website where they take $ 850 for one now.
quote:Originally posted by Macmange:
I send you a pm, but looked at Hall website where they take $ 850 for one now.
But do they actually have one?
Depends on what manifold they are. Hall has them new in two port sizes for IDA's. 4v and A3.
They say Hall Pantera on them.
If they are out of stock on them, then grab whatever you can, anywhere you can find it. I doubt they will cast up any more. That will make the prices of used ones just inch up.
Original GT40/Cobra intakes for a 289 can bring over $2,000 now. It isn't out of the question that a 351c could wind up like that also eventually.
Incidentally, there is a Detomaso logo IDA manifold for the 289/302. Ever see one? Care to speculate on how much it would sell for?
A manifold plumbed for vacuum is easily worth another $500 for that option. Don't believe me? Plumb one yourself and find out why?
If on the other hand, someone is talking about a Detomaso lettered 351 C manifold for IDAs, that is a horse of a different color.
No one knows for sure but it would seem the minimum amount of those were made. Edelbrock takes contracts for casting manifolds for other companies.
Minimum runs from them were in the day 100.
Don't know who cast the Detomaso version. Could have been them, but they are worth a premium price for sure. I have NEVER seen or heard of one coming up for sale publicly.
Buddy Barr did the majority of aluminum intake castings for Ford. Offenhauser did some also on the Cobra high risers. The Detomaso casting pictured here really doesn't have any of their eaearmarkings that I can notice. The part number cast in like that makes it look like a European casting if you ask me?
They were only made in the 4v version as far as I know AND the ONLY Cleveland version I've seen is the one that George posted in his sticky on intake manifolds. Nice find George!
Current prices from Hall are about as cheap as you can get. They are the source of these manifolds to companies like Inglese that are going to mark it up to $1,100.
The Hall manifold is going to be a better performing manifold than the Australian versions since it is a copy of the original from Detomaso.
None of the Australian manifold are made for 4v heads. They are made for 2v heads. Some can be adapted.
It has(the Hall or Detomaso) the runner height (runner length)that you need to generate good torque, and the line of sight to the intake valve. The runner length and size is essentially tuned to the 351 4v head.
This design, the Detomaso IDA version, is actually better than the 289 design since it has longer runners for better off idle torque.
It is said that the original design was done by Holman-Moody and that there is a Holman-Moody manifold version. Never even heard of its existence but I wouldn't be shocked if it's true. Many of the H-M manifold I saw were hand built and welded up and used as patterns. Sounds like this is the case with the Cleveland manifold that they built?
I was told by Gary Hall 1) he claimed he had an original Detomaso version, 2) it tended to be thin and fragile and crack easily 3) his is thicker. Seems to be mostly the carb mounting flanges that are thicker on the Hall.
Also on the Pantera you do not want to use a throttle bell crank mounted on the side over the valve cover. You want it in the center so that you don't have to make a new throttle cable , or more correctly, re-invent the throttle cable.
The Hall has the pedestal where it should be for a Pantera (just like this DeTomaso version). I am suspecting though that the Detomaso race team built a special bellcrank especially for this setup though. Hours of maneuvering with the manifold on the workbench to get the combination right makes me think that. Find a pic of that George.
This picture by George from the internet was a great find. It's the ONLY picture I've ever seen of the Detomaso manifold. Look at the part number cast into it! Very cool. I would sure love to have one. I am sure I couldn't afford it! PM me anyway if you have one. You never know. Miracles happen sometimes?
I'm wondering if since this one is painted black that it might have been cast in magnesium? I've seen that a lot on magnesium intakes to reduce the amount of corrosion they generate. Just makes me want this one more though. I have to learn to control my urges.
Look closely at the porosity of the casting under the black paint. That looks like typical magnesium pitting to me?
Look how thin the carb mounting flanges are. That is a concern.
I came across a letter from DeTomaso to me from 1978 where they answered my inquiry about a Weber manifold, IDA carbs and linkage to bolt onto the car. They quoted it in Italian Lire but the exchange cost in US dollars at the time came to $738. That was preassembled and pre-jetted? Wow. What was I thinking in not buying it? Probably was worried about the cost of the shipping? What a stupido?
They say Hall Pantera on them.
If they are out of stock on them, then grab whatever you can, anywhere you can find it. I doubt they will cast up any more. That will make the prices of used ones just inch up.
Original GT40/Cobra intakes for a 289 can bring over $2,000 now. It isn't out of the question that a 351c could wind up like that also eventually.
Incidentally, there is a Detomaso logo IDA manifold for the 289/302. Ever see one? Care to speculate on how much it would sell for?
A manifold plumbed for vacuum is easily worth another $500 for that option. Don't believe me? Plumb one yourself and find out why?
If on the other hand, someone is talking about a Detomaso lettered 351 C manifold for IDAs, that is a horse of a different color.
No one knows for sure but it would seem the minimum amount of those were made. Edelbrock takes contracts for casting manifolds for other companies.
Minimum runs from them were in the day 100.
Don't know who cast the Detomaso version. Could have been them, but they are worth a premium price for sure. I have NEVER seen or heard of one coming up for sale publicly.
Buddy Barr did the majority of aluminum intake castings for Ford. Offenhauser did some also on the Cobra high risers. The Detomaso casting pictured here really doesn't have any of their eaearmarkings that I can notice. The part number cast in like that makes it look like a European casting if you ask me?
They were only made in the 4v version as far as I know AND the ONLY Cleveland version I've seen is the one that George posted in his sticky on intake manifolds. Nice find George!
Current prices from Hall are about as cheap as you can get. They are the source of these manifolds to companies like Inglese that are going to mark it up to $1,100.
The Hall manifold is going to be a better performing manifold than the Australian versions since it is a copy of the original from Detomaso.
None of the Australian manifold are made for 4v heads. They are made for 2v heads. Some can be adapted.
It has(the Hall or Detomaso) the runner height (runner length)that you need to generate good torque, and the line of sight to the intake valve. The runner length and size is essentially tuned to the 351 4v head.
This design, the Detomaso IDA version, is actually better than the 289 design since it has longer runners for better off idle torque.
It is said that the original design was done by Holman-Moody and that there is a Holman-Moody manifold version. Never even heard of its existence but I wouldn't be shocked if it's true. Many of the H-M manifold I saw were hand built and welded up and used as patterns. Sounds like this is the case with the Cleveland manifold that they built?
I was told by Gary Hall 1) he claimed he had an original Detomaso version, 2) it tended to be thin and fragile and crack easily 3) his is thicker. Seems to be mostly the carb mounting flanges that are thicker on the Hall.
Also on the Pantera you do not want to use a throttle bell crank mounted on the side over the valve cover. You want it in the center so that you don't have to make a new throttle cable , or more correctly, re-invent the throttle cable.
The Hall has the pedestal where it should be for a Pantera (just like this DeTomaso version). I am suspecting though that the Detomaso race team built a special bellcrank especially for this setup though. Hours of maneuvering with the manifold on the workbench to get the combination right makes me think that. Find a pic of that George.
This picture by George from the internet was a great find. It's the ONLY picture I've ever seen of the Detomaso manifold. Look at the part number cast into it! Very cool. I would sure love to have one. I am sure I couldn't afford it! PM me anyway if you have one. You never know. Miracles happen sometimes?
I'm wondering if since this one is painted black that it might have been cast in magnesium? I've seen that a lot on magnesium intakes to reduce the amount of corrosion they generate. Just makes me want this one more though. I have to learn to control my urges.
Look closely at the porosity of the casting under the black paint. That looks like typical magnesium pitting to me?
Look how thin the carb mounting flanges are. That is a concern.
I came across a letter from DeTomaso to me from 1978 where they answered my inquiry about a Weber manifold, IDA carbs and linkage to bolt onto the car. They quoted it in Italian Lire but the exchange cost in US dollars at the time came to $738. That was preassembled and pre-jetted? Wow. What was I thinking in not buying it? Probably was worried about the cost of the shipping? What a stupido?
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quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
None of the Australian manifold are made for 4v heads. They are made for 2v heads,
Now that really depends what manifold you are talking about. There is no mention in this thread of IDA or IDF, they are two quite different carb bolt patterns. The Aussie Speed (Cain reproduction) manifold has enough material for porting to 4V or 2V heads. It is also the only one that allows you to have Weber carbs and air filters that will all fit under a stock decklid and engine screen. Arguably the 48 IDF's are better carbs for the street too than IDA's
Julian
Yes. You are correct. No one specified IDF's or IDA's.
Well there are no IDF manifolds made for 4v heads. You can MODIFY 2v manifolds. Yes. Absolutely.
Start with a $950 Redline intake, then spend whatever the time it takes x shop rate = more.
Why not just start with the right manifold to begin with?
Also why would you want to run IDF's? They are not performance carbs. The IDA's are.
The IDF's are for show. The IDA's are for go.
None of the Australian manifolds are oriented properly for angle to the valve.
It isn't just the carbs, it's the manifold too. You need a minimum runner length to the valve to make torque.
If you want to modify a manifold, you can start with a Wieand tunnel ram also?
The point to me of running Webers is running retro. They are top of the heap for the era. The early '70s.
If you want a 21st century Pantera, go right past carbs and into fuel injection.
Interesting in that seeing these FI set ups on the Pantera, seems to me there was a lot of effort making them look period correct and like IDA's, but then I'm delusional anyway.
Don't worry about what I think. The nurse is coming with my medication soon.
Well there are no IDF manifolds made for 4v heads. You can MODIFY 2v manifolds. Yes. Absolutely.
Start with a $950 Redline intake, then spend whatever the time it takes x shop rate = more.
Why not just start with the right manifold to begin with?
Also why would you want to run IDF's? They are not performance carbs. The IDA's are.
The IDF's are for show. The IDA's are for go.
None of the Australian manifolds are oriented properly for angle to the valve.
It isn't just the carbs, it's the manifold too. You need a minimum runner length to the valve to make torque.
If you want to modify a manifold, you can start with a Wieand tunnel ram also?
The point to me of running Webers is running retro. They are top of the heap for the era. The early '70s.
If you want a 21st century Pantera, go right past carbs and into fuel injection.
Interesting in that seeing these FI set ups on the Pantera, seems to me there was a lot of effort making them look period correct and like IDA's, but then I'm delusional anyway.
Don't worry about what I think. The nurse is coming with my medication soon.
do i read "webers" ?
this is going to be a looooong story , honey, where is the popcorn ?
this is going to be a looooong story , honey, where is the popcorn ?
Thank you all for your commitment and details of intake. It is pure jungle 
for autodidact
for autodidactquote:Originally posted by Macmange:
Thank you all for your commitment and details of intake. It is pure jungle
Sure is. Knowledge is power however. Incidentally, if Rocky jumps in here saying you need more Cowbell, don't worry about it. Less Cowbell is better.
quote:The Hall has the pedestal where it should be for a Pantera.
I cut it off though, because misplaced in my opinion...
Many people have removed the center post. It's your car. It's your choice.
To call the post a mistake is not the facts.
The manifold was intended for a Pantera race car application. Using the center pedestal for the bellcrank enables the stock throttle cable to be retained in the stock location. You have to use the Ford distributor and the cable clears under it and between the manifold. It is very, very close there though. Other distributors will have a larger housing and the cable will not fit through there.
There is a trick to using the Pantera throttle cable and making the center post work though. You need to remove the internal steel tube sleeve under the spring in the throttle cable assembly to make it flexible enough to snake it through. If you do not, the tube, which is rigid steel tubing, will kink because it is not flexible and the throttle will hang up constantly. You will be blaming the carb linkage for that which it is not the cause of the problem.
For the throttle cable, the mounting points from the front of the manifold to the attachment to the center bellcrank are not a straight line. It is close but off just enough to kink the internal steel tube in the throttle cable assembly.
This modification removes any kind on binding that the stock throttle cable is inherent to develop when bent even slightly. This modification to it makes a nice light throttle feel even though you have all of those throttle return springs (four carbs) plus the linkage return springs. It works with using a single 4v carb also.
In addition to keeping the throttle cable down the center of the engine, it creates more room for plumbing and wiring or whatever the race car required. It unclutters the top of the engine.
Some people like to go to a side mount bell-crank which is going to mount over the driver side valve cover. On a race car, that impedes access to the valve cover and to the valve train, i.e., clutters the engine more needlessly.
If it matters, I have run it both ways and the center post, when you have the linkage to it right is by far a better way in a Pantera. A Mustang, the side linkage is better.
The over under linkage works only one way in this setup though. Many people just can't get that to work properly.
Been there done that. I can understand that frustration. Weber linkage is not the simplest thing to get to work right. It looks simple. but it isn't at all.
The other thing people like to do is change the orientation of the carbs by installing a spacer plate under the right side carbs and a spacer/reverser plate under the left side carbs.
Usually it is because that makes the linkage easier for them to center with a side mount bellcrank.
There is an issue with that change though. If you notice in the original configuration the tips of the throttle plates open in line of sight to the intake valve. That's not a mistake. That's how the manifold was designed to work.
If you reverse those two carbs, they open on the wrong side of those intake ports away from the valve. The result is there is a loss of throttle response off of idle and a noticeable loss of power through the engines power range.
It's something like a 50 ft-lb loss of torque right off of idle.
There is no right and wrong really. There are choices that one makes in order to apply these carbs as best they can. All solutions will likely have some sort of an issue. You want to use the solution with the least amount of issues or compromises.
The IDA's in some senses are fragile carbs. You want to load the throttle shafts as lightly as possible with the linkage. The throttle shafts in the carbs are thin and twist very, very easily. Many people develope problems from that they didn't even realize. This happens most often by overloading the throttles with too much twisting stresses from way too much return spring pressure caused by the need to return the throttles to closed because the linkage isn't right.
When the linkage is right, the throttle on this setup is like stepping on a sponge. You can hardly feel it at all.
I think the "factory" considered all of this in the layout of the carbs and the manifold. Theirs has much less compromise.
I'm going with their knowledge, expertise and experience on all of this. I have no desire to attempt to reinvent the wheel. That's already been done. Roll with it.
To say that the designers on the manifold made a mistake by putting in the pedestal though is just not an accurate statement.
They were not stupid. They knew exactly what they were doing and certainly had more then one reason for it.
When you experience the throttle working correctly as a result of the center post linkage, it will be an epiphany.
To call the post a mistake is not the facts.
The manifold was intended for a Pantera race car application. Using the center pedestal for the bellcrank enables the stock throttle cable to be retained in the stock location. You have to use the Ford distributor and the cable clears under it and between the manifold. It is very, very close there though. Other distributors will have a larger housing and the cable will not fit through there.
There is a trick to using the Pantera throttle cable and making the center post work though. You need to remove the internal steel tube sleeve under the spring in the throttle cable assembly to make it flexible enough to snake it through. If you do not, the tube, which is rigid steel tubing, will kink because it is not flexible and the throttle will hang up constantly. You will be blaming the carb linkage for that which it is not the cause of the problem.
For the throttle cable, the mounting points from the front of the manifold to the attachment to the center bellcrank are not a straight line. It is close but off just enough to kink the internal steel tube in the throttle cable assembly.
This modification removes any kind on binding that the stock throttle cable is inherent to develop when bent even slightly. This modification to it makes a nice light throttle feel even though you have all of those throttle return springs (four carbs) plus the linkage return springs. It works with using a single 4v carb also.
In addition to keeping the throttle cable down the center of the engine, it creates more room for plumbing and wiring or whatever the race car required. It unclutters the top of the engine.
Some people like to go to a side mount bell-crank which is going to mount over the driver side valve cover. On a race car, that impedes access to the valve cover and to the valve train, i.e., clutters the engine more needlessly.
If it matters, I have run it both ways and the center post, when you have the linkage to it right is by far a better way in a Pantera. A Mustang, the side linkage is better.
The over under linkage works only one way in this setup though. Many people just can't get that to work properly.
Been there done that. I can understand that frustration. Weber linkage is not the simplest thing to get to work right. It looks simple. but it isn't at all.
The other thing people like to do is change the orientation of the carbs by installing a spacer plate under the right side carbs and a spacer/reverser plate under the left side carbs.
Usually it is because that makes the linkage easier for them to center with a side mount bellcrank.
There is an issue with that change though. If you notice in the original configuration the tips of the throttle plates open in line of sight to the intake valve. That's not a mistake. That's how the manifold was designed to work.
If you reverse those two carbs, they open on the wrong side of those intake ports away from the valve. The result is there is a loss of throttle response off of idle and a noticeable loss of power through the engines power range.
It's something like a 50 ft-lb loss of torque right off of idle.
There is no right and wrong really. There are choices that one makes in order to apply these carbs as best they can. All solutions will likely have some sort of an issue. You want to use the solution with the least amount of issues or compromises.
The IDA's in some senses are fragile carbs. You want to load the throttle shafts as lightly as possible with the linkage. The throttle shafts in the carbs are thin and twist very, very easily. Many people develope problems from that they didn't even realize. This happens most often by overloading the throttles with too much twisting stresses from way too much return spring pressure caused by the need to return the throttles to closed because the linkage isn't right.
When the linkage is right, the throttle on this setup is like stepping on a sponge. You can hardly feel it at all.
I think the "factory" considered all of this in the layout of the carbs and the manifold. Theirs has much less compromise.
I'm going with their knowledge, expertise and experience on all of this. I have no desire to attempt to reinvent the wheel. That's already been done. Roll with it.
To say that the designers on the manifold made a mistake by putting in the pedestal though is just not an accurate statement.
They were not stupid. They knew exactly what they were doing and certainly had more then one reason for it.
When you experience the throttle working correctly as a result of the center post linkage, it will be an epiphany.
Sure is. Knowledge is power however. Incidentally, if Rocky jumps in here saying you need more Cowbell, don't worry about it. Less Cowbell is better.
For a totally useless piece of info by the way.my son really hated my cowbell at his games!
Jeff
For a totally useless piece of info by the way.my son really hated my cowbell at his games!
Jeff
Thanks Forest
quote:Originally posted by Macmange:
Thanks Forest
Hope it helped?
Yes,
PanteraDoug, thanks for information
But I come back to you when it is on engine
PanteraDoug, thanks for information
But I come back to you when it is on engine