what have i got?

Stephen, I am no expert, they will add their advice when they see this. I can say, that's a pretty nice set up you have there. As far as the cam goes, basically you have five main components that work together in order to open your valves. These components change direction fairly rapidly and thus require adjustment in order to work correctly and still be able to expand and contract as your engine heats up and cools down. The hyd method uses a lifter that relys on a layer of oil within the lifter to absorb the shock and heat expansion which changes the tolerences slightly. A solid set up, is just that, solid. YOU must provide for the thermal expansion in YOUR adjustment. The "Valve lash is the distance between the tip of your rocker arm and the end of your valve stem. You will be provided with two numbers (iether cold numbers or hot numbers) in .000 of an inch, these are your valve lash values. The numbers will indicate intake valve adjustment which is a bit cooler and will be a few thousands smaller and exhaust valve adjustment which is of course a bit hotter and will a bit more for heat expansion. You adjust each cylinder on TDC of compression stroke. If you have a good set of locks on the rockers then it is reasonable to expect perhaps five thousand miles or more from an adjustmant. I have a solid blower car it has ten thousand miles on it with one recent adjustment. Your cobo is really nice and your car will haul ass. The rest of the guys will chime in and explain it better, but be sure to use the correct oil for your components and try to find a station w/E free fuel... Good luck! Post a photo....

PLT1 - thanks - here are some pics...note that these show varying stages of engine upgrades - there is no picture that shows this lates engine rebuild with the alum heads, for example

the car is #6290

I did a quick edit on my comments and here is a quick video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPOaAsuzhsE

P.S... The method shown in the clip is how I did it last time, it basically puts the lifter on the back side of the lobe as to ensure it's not "ramped" on any part of the lobe....

The Pro Comp heads that are on your engine are made in China. The story as I have heard it is that they copied the Austrailian CHI aluminum head design. Here is the story about them, although if they are making good power, I wouldn't get too concerned about where the heads were made.

http://www.speedtalk.com/forum...?f=1&t=2079&start=15

There have been later posts on other sites concerning porosity issues on Chinese castings. You might get lucky, and you might not. How much can you fix on brand new heads before losing patience?

Hi Stephen,

Congratulations on the new car. Get ready for a wild ride in more ways than one

IMHO, Streetability is more a thing of taste. What I think is "streetable" may be totally different then what you or others think. On the motor that I am putting the finishing touches on right now, I was thinking about things like streetability, reliability, minimal maintenance and found that these characteristics were in conflict with other characteristics that I wanted, like amazing power, and through the roof torque and high rpms. So I chose to go somewhere in the middle. And then somewhere in all of that, sooner or later the owner has to think about $$$$$$. I always tell people that I'm not rich enough to not have to ask "how much?" On my motor I chose a hydralic cam and lifters simply because I didn't want to deal with the occasional adjustments that come along with a solid cam. I also chose lower pressure valve springs in hopes that I might get more longevity out of the valvetrain. I also went with a flat tappet cam and consider that more of a cost saving benefit.

I'm not familiar with the procomp cylinder heads. I chose the Edelbrock 2V heads and then had them CNC ported since my motor is a 393. I was surprised to see the lower compression ratio on your setup since the KB876 pistons are a flat top and your motor is stroked. I'm assuming those heads have a bigger combustion chamber. Maybe mid 70's cc like the stock open chamber iron heads.

There was only really one thing that I noticed from the list that caused me concern. With boring the block 40 over, I would have liked for the engine builder to have sonic checked the block. I happen to have a sonic checker so even though my machinist didn't have the ability to check the cylinder wall thickness I was able to before and after machining. It sounds like your motor will spend the majority of it's life on the street so I really wouldn't concern myself with it at all.

Is it a high quality build? Well, does is run like scalded ape. It should!! The components of the build are fine. What I have found is the build quality usually comes down to one thing; the engine builder. If they took there time, made precise measurements on every item in the motor, started it and broke it in properly, then more than likely you have a quality build. Remember, the best measurement of all is when you crank it up, does it create a smile from ear to ear that is impossible to remove. If that's the case....welcome to Pantera ownership!! Now go drive the hell out of it!!!

Chance

> i believe i have what is known as a solid lifter engine, correct?

Yes. More specifically, a solid flat tappet engine (as opposed to a
roller lifter design)

> in what way does that differ from a hydraulic lift engine?

The camshaft spins in the block. Lifters ride on the cam lobes
and impart motion to the push rods which push on the rocker arm
which, in turns, pushes down on the valve to open it. As parts
(camshaft, lifters, valves and valve seats) in this system wear,
something needs to be done to keep a gap from growing. Hydraulic
lifters pump oil through the lifter to move the pushrod cup so
it takes up the slack. With a solid lifter cams are designed
differently (with clearance ramps) and run with a certain gap
(measured between the valve and rocker tips with a feeler gauge
with the lifter on the base circle, not the lobe, of the cam).
As that gap, known as the lash, grows you have to go in and re-adjust
the gap back to the specified value. The lash will be listed
on the cam card and there are different values, depending upon
whether the lash is set cold or hot to account for thermal
expansion.

> what is valve lash and why does that seem to be so burdensome
> with a solid lifter engine? - is there anything special one
> needs to do to maintain a solid lifter engine v. a hydraulic
> lift?

You need to periodically remove the valve covers and check or
re-set the lash. The lash must be set when their lifter is on the
base circle of the cam. At this position the valve is closed and
there is no lift taking place. The SAE method (a.k.a. the EOIC
method for Exhaust Open, Intake Closed) is to:

1. Warm the engine. Once you know the difference between hot and
cold lash, you can set the lash cold.

2. Follow the firing order. You can pick any cylinder but I usually
start with number one and have a copy of the firing order and
cylinder numbering in front of me.

3. Crank the motor over by hand (socket on the balancer bolt), set
the intake lash just as the exhaust valve begins to open.

4. Watching the same cylinder, crank the engine over some more and
then set the exhaust lash just before the intake valve closes.

In more detail,

1. Remove the valve covers and pick the cylinder you are going to adjust.
If your cam is already broken in, do this with the engine fully warmed up
(takes thermal expansion into account). If installing a new cam, use the
cold specs before firing the engine, then re-lash after cam break0in with
the engine hot.

2. Hand turn the engine in its normal direction of rotation while watching
the exhaust valve on that particular cylinder. When the exhaust valve begins
to open, stop and adjust that cylinder's intake valve. When the exhaust is
just beginning to open, the intake lifter will be on the base circle of the
lobe, ready to be adjusted.

3. With a solid cam, use a feeler gauge to set the correct valve lash.
Place it between the tip of the valve stem and rocker arm. Back off the
lock nut, turn the adjuster until you arrive at the proper setting then
lock the adjuster in place.

4. After the intake valve has been adjusted, continue to rotate the engine,
watching that same intake valve. The intake valve will go to full lift and
then begin to close. When the intake is almost closed, stop and adjust the
exhaust valve on that particular cylinder. When the intake valve almost
closed, the exhaust lifter is on the base circle of the cam. Follow the
procedure in step 3 to set the lash or pre-load.

5. Both valves on this cylinder are now adjusted, so check the firing
order and move to next cylinder and repeat the procedure.

The SAE method is more accurate than the 90 degree method described in the
Ford manual and the more overlap the cam has or the less piston-to-valve
clearance you have, the more important this method is.

> why do people alwasy question whether a solid lifter engine is "streetable"?
> why wouldn't it be?

Streetable may refer to the RPM band the cam operates in or on how aggressive
the lobe is. If the cam is designed to operate in the 4500 to 8000 RPM band,
it won't work well on the street where you operate outside that RPM band most
of the time. Also, the more aggressive a lobe is, the faster it wears and the
harder it is on the rest of the bits in the valve train. Furthermore, a solid
roller cam has needle bearings which may or may not be pressure fed at idle and
can get hammered by the lash. Some cam companies recommend solid roller lifters
be inspected every oil change which means removing the intake manifold.

> with respect to these heads, are folks familiar with them? - i believe they
> are from australia - what positive attributes do they have?

The are not from Australia. They are Chinese copies of the CHI heads from
Australia and Pro Comp has been deceptive in their advertising in the past,
quoting flow bench numbers that were not accurate (used CHI's numbers, not
their own). I've flow benched and dyno tested them on the 351C dyno engine.
On that relatively mild engine, the Pro Comps were down 30 HP to stock iron
4V Cleveland heads and were down 50 HP to the CHI 3V heads they copied.
Pro Comp screwed up the intake short side radius and the flow bench showed
the exhaust out flowing the intake (it should be the other way around).
The part number you list appears to be a CNC-ported version so perhaps they
have improved things but I'd still be suspicious of the quality of components
used.

> anything special about the design (flat top) or build?

Flat top is usually used to refer to pistons, not heads. You probably
mean closed or open chamber. The heads are nominally closed chamber but
the chamber volume listed for that part number is 74 cc's which is closer
to an open chamber volume though I suspect that means the chambers were
unshrouded.

> what do people think of this build generally? - is it a high quality build?

The Keith Black pistons used are their new Icon line of forgings. They are
inexpensive but appear to be decent quality. KB's hypereutectic pistons got
a reputation for being brittle and many people confuse the two lines of pistons.

> TCI Rattler

There are three basic types of harmonic dampers:

1. Elastomer
2. Lanchester
3. Visous Fluid

OEM automobile applications use elastomer-style dampers. Construction
consists of an outer inertia ring with rubber insulator that is bonded
or pressed onto an inner crank hub. The ring on the rubber is tuned to
a particular frequency. Essentially, an additional mass is elastically
bonded to the primary mass. Since the natural frequency of the additional
mass is constant, it is only effective when the crankshaft frequency is
within the range of the damper mass tuned frequency. It modifies the
the peak by introducing two new resonant peaks (one and and one below
the original) of lesser magnitude. When you know the frequency, this
method works very well. However, when altering an engine (particularly
when stroking an engine), the natural frequency may change. NASCAR and
Trans Am teams use SFI-spec elastomer type balancers but they also have
access to specialized equipment to measure torsional frequencies and
deflections that allow them to tune the dampers to their applications.
Some designs are bi-modal having inner and outer elastomer rings, each
tuned to a different frequency. The outer ring of elastomer dampers
can slip (causing timing marks to change) or even come off the hub.
Many sanctioning bodies mandate the use of SFI specification 18-1
approved dampers for racing. Elastomer dampers work by converting
differential movement of the ring relative to the hub to heat in the
rubber. Rubber hardens with age and temperature so the tuned frequency
can change over time and use. Harder rubber increases the tuned frequency.
One 'net source tested an intact but old balancer and found a 26% frequency
increase. On that particular crank and damper combination, a 10% increase
was found to permit greater than 1/2 degree amplitudes which is believed
to be large enough to crack a crank over time.

Viscous fluid dampers consist of an inertia ring that floats in high viscosity
silicone fluid. The ring and fluid are encased by an outer housing and inner
hub. Damping is acheived by shearing the thin film of fluid surrounding the
inertia ring. As the crank nears it's natural frequency, the crank is subject
to a torsional oscillation. The inertia of the hub lags the oscillation which
creates a differential shearing motion in the viscous fluid. This absorbs
the vibration energy which is dissipated as heat. Viscous fluid dampers are
not tuned to a particular frequency but work whenever there is torsional
vibration present (i.e. they don't tune out any particular frequency but rather
clip the peaks off the harmonics). They are effective at damping torsional
vibrations in a crankshaft but they work best in engines that see relatively
modest angular accelerations. They are well suited to engines that see heavy
loads at constant or slowly varying RPM and are commonly used in diesel truck,
marine and locomotive applications. However, on a road race engine that sees
constantly changing RPM (with high rates of change), the viscous damper lags
behind the RPM change which heats up the silicone fluid. You can thing of a
ring in viscous fluid as a damper like a shock absorber and it will overheat
if used continuously. Also, the silicone fluid will, after constant heat
absorption during its service life, reduce in viscosity value. Some industrial
dampers have sampling plugs fitted into the housing that allow fluid to be
extracted for analysis. Metaldyne recommends overhaul when the fluid has
reduced 50% in viscosity value. At that stage, the damping efficiency will
be 80% of the original.

The Lanchester damper is a pendulum style invented by aviation pioneer
Frederick W. Lanchester 100 years or so ago. It works at all RPM as the
centrifugal force field changes the natural frequency of the pendulum as
rpm increases (the natural frequency of the centrifugal pendulum absorber
is directly proportional to the angular velocity of the primary structure).
In theory, the Lanchester damper should be a good match for a stroker engine
but the published results I've seen were not particularly impressive.
The TCI Rattler is a pendulum style damper. TCI did an SAE paper on their
Rattler damper but the results didn't look any better than a conventional
damper.

All the serious race teams I'm aware of use elastomer balancers but some
of the teams have the resources to have them tuned to their specific engines.

> SA Gear 9 position tru-roller with Torrington bearing

SA Gear makes the sprockets. I prefer other sprockets but more important
is the chain manufacturer. If your chain says Rolon, it is junk.

oes the crank have a snout spacer
installed to take up the difference between the 351W style
snout of the Eagle crank and the 351C snout?

> Bore (.40 over/385c.i.) and hone block

Some get nervous at 0.040" pver unless they've sonic tested the block first.

> Dyno (500HP/472lb torque)

Do you have the dyno sheets or was this an estimate from the builder?

> Edelbrock air gap intake manifold (dual plane)

The Air Gap has 2V ports but Pro Comps are a copy of the CHI 3V heads.
Is there a spacer to handle the port transition? CHI used to do that
before dual and single plane intakes were available to match the 3V
port location. Eyeballing the CNC port version of the Pro Comp heads,
it's not clear to me what intake manifold they were designed for.

> Moroso oil pan

Is this in a Pantera? The Moroso 351C pan I'm familiar with is not
gated nor baffled for road race. A Pantera with good tires can generate
enough lateral g's to uncover the oil pick up in a pan without any
baffling.

> does this seem like a "streetable" engine or one that is designed primarily
> for racing?

You need to find the cam card and post the information here before we can tell.
You also need it for the lash information.

Dan Jones

many thanks

i have the dyno sheet - but i don't have the cam card - i will ask the builder for it

thanks for the very helpful information

> i have the dyno sheet

What is the RPM at peak HP and also at peak torque?

Dan Jones

quote:

Originally posted by edl:

what do people think of this build generally? - is it a high quality build?

thanks stephen

No, its not a high quality engine project. Its a future full of trouble.

-G

George - respect your views, as always, but can you give reasons for why you say this?

I was tired last night when I posted, having traveled all day returning from Monterey (the Concorso Italiano), apologies for my abrupt answer.

The problems ...

(1) Its nice the block was decked (squared up) and the reciprocating assembly was balanced in some way (static? dynamic?) but its a downer the block was bored 40 thousandths over. My guess is this is the block's second bore job, the first one was 30 thousandths over, so the second bore job was taken another 10 thousandths. It sure would be nice to see a sonic check report for those cylinder walls.

(2) 6.125" connecting rods. Normally we use 6.00 inch rods, to give the piston more room for a standard ring set that doesn't overlap the wrist pin hole.

(3) 1/16 x 1/16 x 3/16 ring set ... thats not a ring set built for longevity, this exemplifies perfectly why a shorter rod is preferred. The Eagle/KB stroker kit is a wonky combination for the street, I guess it was intended to be a low budget race kit. The problem is kits like this are dumped on eBay to any buyer with no couseling regarding application.

(4) Assuming this stroker kit uses floating wrist pins, there's no mention of indexing the cylinders. Boring the cylinders while indexing the boring tool on the main bearing axis is referred to as "indexing the cylinders". It makes the cylinders perpendicular to the crankshaft both fore and aft and left to right. This is a necessary step before using floating wrist pins because cylinders that are canted fore and aft will cause the piston pins to hammer the locks out of the pistons and gouge the cylinder walls.

(5) Pro Comp heads. Ignoring the dismal business ethics of the company, their Chinese made parts have the worst reputation in the aftermarket industry in regards to quality. On top of all that, they don't flow well and take a lot of work to fix. It appears the heads were purchased based on lowest price, but "fixing" them would end up costing more money than a better set of heads. The iron 4V heads are great heads, replacing them with Pro Comp heads is a down-grade.

(6) A solid lifter cam in a Pantera is not for the average person, and not justifiable for a street engine. Its difficult to adjust valve lash in a Pantera.

(7) The TCI damper has a very bad reputation amongst racers. For every good report I've read or heard about the ATI damper I've read or heard an equally bad one about the TCI damper. Folks claim the ATI prevents 351C block cracking, folks claim the TCI is responsible for crankshaft failure. Since the TCI damper is an expensive part, an ATI damper could have been purchased for about the same amount of money, that was a mis-informed purchasing decision.

(8) 2V Edelbrock intake manifold mated to 3V Pro Comp heads. There is a significant port mis-alignment.

(9) Last I checked, Moroso doesn't make a race type Pantera oil pan, so at best this Moroso oil pan is just an OEM copy. A better pan would have been the factory Q code oil pan which has a built-in windage tray.

(10) No mention of any lubrication system improvements besides the oil pan and an ARP oil pump drive shaft. The inflexible ARP oil pump drive shaft is going to eventually lead to shearing the roll pin anchoring the distributor drive gear.

-G

george - thanks for taking the time and thought to detail your answer -

hmmm - sounds kind of grim

the builder is local and has a good reputation - i'll talk to him about your observations and see what he was thinking when he put this together - certainly driving it is a blast

thanks,

stephen

For a different view, I offer my less educated and less something view:

quote:

(1) Its nice the block was decked (squared up) and the reciprocating assembly was balanced in some way (static? dynamic?) but its a downer the block was bored 40 thousandths over. My guess is this is the block's second bore job, the first one was 30 thousandths over, so the second bore job was taken another 10 thousandths. It sure would be nice to see a sonic check report for those cylinder walls.

Corey's view: (Ultra)Sonic testing the block was hard to do around here since there was only one guy with the tool in the valley, but I did it anyway on my standard bore cleveland, and I can see why this is important after having it sonic tested. Cheap insurance, and a .040 over block isn't a necessarily wasted block, depending upon the remaining cylinder wall thickness and the intended use of the engine.

quote:

(2) 6.125" connecting rods. Normally we use 6.00 inch rods, to give the piston more room for a standard ring set that doesn't overlap the wrist pin hole.

Corey's view: 6.0" rods in a stroker can mean a low rod/stroke ratio and isn't necessarily great either. Low rod/stroke ratios can mean more wear and tear on the engine. When you add stroke to an engine, there are usually some drawbacks. Again, for the intended use of the engine in a Pantera that doesn't get driven every day, this may not mean much. For a grain of salt, some people don't like adding stroke to an engine and use the oil control on ring and piston configuration of stroker motors as an argument against such motors. Other people who have reasonable stroker motors don't actually experience oil control issues. The 351 Windsor is an easier motor to install a stroker in, given the deck height of 9.5 inches versus the Cleveland's 9.2 inches.

quote:

(3) 1/16 x 1/16 x 3/16 ring set ... thats not a ring set built for longevity, this exemplifies perfectly why a shorter rod is preferred. The Eagle/KB stroker kit is a wonky combination for the street, I guess it was intended to be a low budget race kit. The problem is kits like this are dumped on eBay to any buyer with no couseling regarding application.

Corey's view: Depends upon how much it's driven on the street.

quote:

(4) Assuming this stroker kit uses floating wrist pins, there's no mention of indexing the cylinders. Boring the cylinders while indexing the boring tool on the main bearing axis is referred to as "indexing the cylinders". It makes the cylinders perpendicular to the crankshaft both fore and aft and left to right. This is a necessary step before using floating wrist pins because cylinders that are canted fore and aft will cause the piston pins to hammer the locks out of the pistons and gouge the cylinder walls.

Corey's view: Check with an engine builder for the intended usage of the engine.

quote:

(5) Pro Comp heads. Ignoring the dismal business ethics of the company, their Chinese made parts have the worst reputation in the aftermarket industry in regards to quality. On top of all that, they don't flow well and take a lot of work to fix. It appears the heads were purchased based on lowest price, but "fixing" them would end up costing more money than a better set of heads. The iron 4V heads are great heads, replacing them with Pro Comp heads is a down-grade.

Corey's view: Pro Comp heads are cheap knock-offs but not super, completely terrible. Don't go throw them away just because they aren't the best heads.

quote:

(6) A solid lifter cam in a Pantera is not for the average person, and not justifiable for a street engine. Its difficult to adjust valve lash in a Pantera.

Corey's view: This isn't a hard thing to change if you don't want to mess with valve lash. Dennis Quella said that they're not that bad to adjust, and he prefers them over a hydraulic roller in a Cleveland.

quote:

(7) The TCI damper has a very bad reputation amongst racers. For every good report I've read or heard about the ATI damper I've read or heard an equally bad one about the TCI damper. Folks claim the ATI prevents 351C block cracking, folks claim the TCI is responsible for crankshaft failure. Since the TCI damper is an expensive part, an ATI damper could have been purchased for about the same amount of money, that was a mis-informed purchasing decision.

Corey's view: The key here is "bad reputation amongst racers". Intended usage again.

quote:

(8) 2V Edelbrock intake manifold mated to 3V Pro Comp heads. There is a significant port mis-alignment.

Corey's view: Yea, definite mismatch. You can leave it how it is, get a new intake, try to port-match the intake to the head, or get new Trick Flow, Austrailian 2V, or Edelbrock heads. Unless you have x-ray vision, you could take off the intake manifold and check it out.

quote:

(9) Last I checked, Moroso doesn't make a race type Pantera oil pan, so at best this Moroso oil pan is just an OEM copy. A better pan would have been the factory Q code oil pan which has a built-in windage tray.

Corey's view: Stock cars didn't all get the Q-code oil pan. Yes, if you're racing the car around everywhere, you'll want the baffled oil pan. If you have a garage queen , then maybe it's fine. Not a durability item unless you're driving the car hard on the track street roads and need the oil control.

Yes, my views are different from George's. I don't see any of these issues causing a major problem for a street-driven car that might see a cruise here and there and not much track use.

The need for cylinders to be indexed when used with floating pins is not an intended use issue, its an issue for any use, as is the effectiveness of the TCI Rattler crank damper. These things will eventually cause an owner grief, even if he only cruises malt shops on Friday night. There's a myriad of seemingly un-related issues that can arise.

Poorly machined heads are also an issue regardless of intended use; ask the Pantera owner whose CHI heads chewed the valve guides up about the inconvenience created by poorly machined heads. Canted valve heads are more difficult to machine than in-line valve heads. You can bet Pro Comp will not be as cooperative as CHI when it comes to replacing their defective parts.

Ford replaced the 5000 rpm M code motor with the 6000 rpm Q code motor about the time the first Panteras hit the dealer show rooms, circa May 1971, very few Panteras were equipped with M code motors, the vast majority were equipped with Q code motors.

An oil pan baffle and a windage tray are two different things, they serve two different purposes. Ford would not have installed a windage tray in the 6000 rpm Q code motor's oil pan unless they felt it was necessary.

-G

My car runs pretty good, I scalp camaro's mustangs and an occasional vette. However, I have poorly machined heads done by a "dumbass know it all" who was warned about the cleveland geometry. My heads regularly chew seals and spit them out. I have a block that is 40 over and I was warned about wall thickness. I have two cylinders that are a bit scary. That said, my car runs good, it develops great power, it runs very cool and I harass anyone I catch on the road... I will be careful to avoid these issues on my next build, but for now I beat the hell out this combo. It's on the last bore, the heads are not perfect, I am liberated to destroy it. It is holding up pretty well, but these issues are sort of a PITA....

guys - thanks to all - i will not be racing this car, but driving it on the street - the driving will be robust, to the extent allowed by subarban settings and US highways

as for a low budget build, whether it was good or bad, i can say he paid just over 10K for the parts and labor - does that constitute low budget??

i was told by the seller that this was the first rebuild - so why he went 40 over and not 30 over i don't know, i'll try to find out

Dan - the info you wanted from the dyno is as follows:

peak torque of 475 ft lbs happens at 4,908 rpm

peak hp of 491.8 happens at 6,301

what does that data tell you?

a little bit about the builder - he runs the fatest mustang and it is with a 351 cleveland engine - his website is:


http://www.lawrenceracingengines.net/default.html


and this is an excerpt

"Jeff Lawrence Sets Super Stock GTAA National Record

Jeff Lawrence, owner of Lawrence Racing Engines in Westhampton Beach has set the NHRA (National Hot Rod Association) National record in Super Stock GTAA class.
His 1988 Mustang powered by a 351 Cleveland Engine set the National record at an elapsed time of 8.99 seconds at 147.3 miles per hour, making his Saleen Mustang the fastest in its class in the country.
This is the third time in the past 10 years that he has set the record for his class. However, it’s the first time the record has been set in the 8’s. The record was set at the NHRA National Open held at Atco, New Jersey on April 7 to 10.
NHRA records can only be set at certain events with strict adherence to NHRA rules. After each record attempt vehicles are weighed, and certain engine parameters are measured such as cubic inches, compression ratio, carburetor size, etc. Racers are required to “tear down” (partially disassemble) engines for inspection and verification by the NHRA certification team."


i get that this is drag racing and not what i will do with the car, but can it be that the guy built as bad a combination as some say??

after all, not only does he know fords, but he knows the C351 intimately - or enough to build a pretty fast one

how can it be that he put together such a bad engine?

> why do people alwasy question whether a solid lifter engine is "streetable"?
> why wouldn't it be?

Streetable may refer to the RPM band the cam operates in or on how aggressive
the lobe is. If the cam is designed to operate in the 4500 to 8000 RPM band,
it won't work well on the street where you operate outside that RPM band most
of the time. Also, the more aggressive a lobe is, the faster it wears and the
harder it is on the rest of the bits in the valve train. Furthermore, a solid
roller cam has needle bearings which may or may not be pressure fed at idle and
can get hammered by the lash. Some cam companies recommend solid roller lifters
be inspected every oil change which means removing the intake manifold.

+++++i think the dyno numbers show it is meant to run more around the 4,000 to 6,000 range...


The part number you list appears to be a CNC-ported version so perhaps they
have improved things but I'd still be suspicious of the quality of components
used.

+++++ noted as to the quality of the heads - yes, they are the ported version



> anything special about the design (flat top) or build?

Flat top is usually used to refer to pistons, not heads. You probably
mean closed or open chamber. The heads are nominally closed chamber but
the chamber volume listed for that part number is 74 cc's which is closer
to an open chamber volume though I suspect that means the chambers were
unshrouded.


++++++++ when i called the head mfgr, they said the chamber size for the ported version is 78 (even though it says 74 on the website) - what does that change in your answer, if anything?

> SA Gear 9 position tru-roller with Torrington bearing

SA Gear makes the sprockets. I prefer other sprockets but more important
is the chain manufacturer. If your chain says Rolon, it is junk.

++++++ i'll try to find out

does the crank have a snout spacer
installed to take up the difference between the 351W style
snout of the Eagle crank and the 351C snout?


+++++++ i'll find out



> Bore (.40 over/385c.i.) and hone block

Some get nervous at 0.040" pver unless they've sonic tested the block first.


+++++ noted



> Dyno (500HP/472lb torque)

Do you have the dyno sheets or was this an estimate from the builder?


++++++ see prior posting



> Edelbrock air gap intake manifold (dual plane)

The Air Gap has 2V ports but Pro Comps are a copy of the CHI 3V heads.
Is there a spacer to handle the port transition?


++++++ i'll find out - if there is, does that take care of the "mismatch" issue that George points out?



CHI used to do that
before dual and single plane intakes were available to match the 3V
port location. Eyeballing the CNC port version of the Pro Comp heads,
it's not clear to me what intake manifold they were designed for.

> Moroso oil pan

Is this in a Pantera? The Moroso 351C pan I'm familiar with is not
gated nor baffled for road race. A Pantera with good tires can generate
enough lateral g's to uncover the oil pick up in a pan without any
baffling.


+++++ upon reading the full entry on the invoice it says:

"Moroso stock depth pan with internal slosh baffles"



> does this seem like a "streetable" engine or one that is designed primarily
> for racing?

You need to find the cam card and post the information here before we can tell.
You also need it for the lash information.


++++++ i'll get the cam card - but i am thinking the answer is yes since the dyno information showed the sweet spot between 4-6K rpm



Dan Jones[/QUOTE]

quote:

Originally posted by SEL:

... hmmm - sounds kind of grim ....

Stephen

The modern breed of motor builders and I do not see eye to eye. Guys in tune with the Windsor V8 scene are seldom in tune with the 351 Cleveland scene. A drag race engine only sees 250 miles in a year's use. Drag racing is actually easier on a motor than road racing, endurance racing, even easier than hard driving on a mountain road. Drag racers don't have a concept for what a soundly built, durable engine is. Please don't take my comments about your motor wrong, they are not meant to criticize, there's nothing constructive about criticism. That was this old coots tough, honest, evaluation based on the information you presented. AND ... since this motor is installed in a sports car I always expect it to be capable of enduring hard driving on a twisty mountain road without leaving the driver stranded; cruising the malt shop is for rat rods and hot rods. I do have your best interest at heart, and I do have a plan B for you; here's the game plan to avoid that future full of trouble I predicted:

(1) Get the sonic check from the builder if you can, so you'll know how much cylinder wall remains. If the thrust walls are no thinner than 0.120" anywhere, then you can work with this motor. If the walls are too thin, then you can adopt the attitude of PLT-1, just drive it till it breaks.

(2) I don't know how many miles are already on the motor since the rebuild, but if its not too many, and the cylinder walls aren't too thin ... I'd sell the TCI Rattler to some poor chap on eBay and buy an ATI damper. Hopefully this will save the crankshaft and/or cylinder block.

(3) One other question to ask the builder ... did he do anything to strengthen the pin that fastens the distributor gear to the distributor shaft, to prevent it from shearing? That ARP oil pump drive shaft will shear the stock Ford roll pins every time ... the MSD distributors use a coiled roll pin, which may be a little tougher, but forum members have claimed the coiled roll pins have sheared too. If he installed a beefier pin, or double pinned the gear, then cool you're OK. If not, that pin will most likely shear and leave you stranded sometime in the future, to avoid that you can pull the distributor and beef up the pin. If it were me I would prefer to replace the ARP shaft with a standard shaft designed to twist, but that involves dropping the oil pan, it will most likely be easier to pull the distributor.

With those issues resolved you can drive your car and enjoy it until a motor problem crops up. The thin rings are not designed for high mileage, they are racing rings, so they'll wear more quickly than street rings. Your motor may also tend to burn some oil, time will tell. And I would expect the Pro Comp heads to eventually develop a problem, but until then there's no reason to not enjoy the motor. As problems crop up you can develop a strategy for resolving them; one at a time or all at once.

That's not so grim, is it?

You and every forum member always have my committment to do whatever is within my capability to help and/or advise.

-G

Interesting reading this tread.

Sel you have what you have in your car, enjoy it and have fun. If it’s working that’s good!! You will find out if it’s trash. If you going to build a new engine believe me you want to buy the god stuff to a certain amount and find a good builder. It’s so important that the builder knows what he doing and knows what will work together. I have had some engine built for me over the year’s some cheap and some costly. The cheap one’s brake down pretty fast because the parts and HP aren’t made to be. I have also build costly engine were the engine builder didn’t have the knowledge and broke the engine.
The right parts, engine builder and the right goal for use and you will get a good engine.

If I want a high RPM engine I will go for solid lifter (Not talking about 6500 RPM’s), for your application I will go for hydraulic. You don’t need solid you don’t gain with it and it’s more work to.

You have what you have - but in my opinion, if (IF) it starts to brake down think of getting a new one.. don’t use to much money on it, have fun with it 500 hp is a lot of fun

Good summery you post Cowboy!

quote:

Originally posted by Cowboy from Hell:

quote:

Originally posted by SEL:

... hmmm - sounds kind of grim ....

Stephen

The modern breed of motor builders and I do not see eye to eye. Guys in tune with the Windsor V8 scene are seldom in tune with the 351 Cleveland scene.


>>>agree...just want to point out, for what its worth, that he runs a cleveland and not a windsor in his mustang



A drag race engine only sees 250 miles in a year's use. Drag racing is actually easier on a motor than road racing, endurance racing, even easier than hard driving on a mountain road. Drag racers don't have a concept for what a soundly built, durable engine is.


>>>don't know anything about drag racing - so can't comment - but my hope is that if the guy can build the country's fastest cleveland engine (at least for purposes of a quarter mile) that he has at least enough of a head on his shoulders to build a good streetable version - of course, who knows, it may truly be a piece of junk



Please don't take my comments about your motor wrong, they are not meant to criticize, there's nothing constructive about criticism. That was this old coots tough, honest, evaluation based on the information you presented.


>>>George, i said it in my very first post to you - i always respect your opinion - and i did thank you for it - it is better to know the truth than be blissfully ignorant - i have read all your comments with an open mind (if not with a bit of "oh cr*p, what have i done")

AND ... since this motor is installed in a sports car I always expect it to be capable of enduring hard driving on a twisty mountain road without leaving the driver stranded; cruising the malt shop is for rat rods and hot rods.

>>>god blessed right!

I do have your best interest at heart, and I do have a plan B for you; here's the game plan to avoid that future full of trouble I predicted:

(1) Get the sonic check from the builder if you can, so you'll know how much cylinder wall remains. If the thrust walls are no thinner than 0.120" anywhere, then you can work with this motor. If the walls are too thin, then you can adopt the attitude of PLT-1, just drive it till it breaks.


>>>trying to get in touch with the builder to ask for that and the cam card



(2) I don't know how many miles are already on the motor since the rebuild,

>>>about 1 thousand



but if its not too many, and the cylinder walls aren't too thin ... I'd sell the TCI Rattler to some poor chap on eBay and buy an ATI damper. Hopefully this will save the crankshaft and/or cylinder block.


>>>OK - i will discuss this with Jeff (the engine builder)



(3) One other question to ask the builder ... did he do anything to strengthen the pin that fastens the distributor gear to the distributor shaft, to prevent it from shearing? That ARP oil pump drive shaft will shear the stock Ford roll pins every time ... the MSD distributors use a coiled roll pin, which may be a little tougher, but forum members have claimed the coiled roll pins have sheared too. If he installed a beefier pin, or double pinned the gear, then cool you're OK. If not, that pin will most likely shear and leave you stranded sometime in the future, to avoid that you can pull the distributor and beef up the pin. If it were me I would prefer to replace the ARP shaft with a standard shaft designed to twist, but that involves dropping the oil pan, it will most likely be easier to pull the distributor.

>>>I'll find out from him



With those issues resolved you can drive your car and enjoy it until a motor problem crops up.


>>>hopefully no time soon...think a good thought!



The thin rings are not designed for high mileage, they are racing rings, so they'll wear more quickly than street rings. Your motor may also tend to burn some oil, time will tell.

>>>just to be clear, why would it burn oil?


And I would expect the Pro Comp heads to eventually develop a problem, but until then there's no reason to not enjoy the motor.

>>>everything else aside in all of these posts, when i put my foot down, a REALLY big smile spreads across my face - at times replaced with a HOLY SH*T for how fast the thing is - this is the fastest car i have ever owned



As problems crop up you can develop a strategy for resolving them; one at a time or all at once.


>>>yep

That's not so grim, is it?


>>>not at all...and thanks



You and every forum member always have my committment to do whatever is within my capability to help and/or advise.

>>>and we all appreciate it very much



-G

1

2

4

11

12

Pictures of the engine above are not the rebuilt one we have been discussing...

Nice car Stephen, you chose well.

many thanks - let's hope for long roads uninterrupted by anything breaking!

quote:

but if its not too many, and the cylinder walls aren't too thin ... I'd sell the TCI Rattler to some poor chap on eBay and buy an ATI damper. Hopefully this will save the crankshaft and/or cylinder block.

>>>OK - i will discuss this with Jeff (the engine builder)

An inexpensive Damper option is the Powerforce+PLUS Series 9000 SFI APPROVED damper, Part No. D-90006. It lists for $245 at Flatlander Racing, but the exact same damper (part no., packaging, and all) is also available under the Scat brand/label for only $185 from Flatlander racing.

Powerforce brand: http://www.flatlanderracing.co...erforce-dampers.html
Scat/Powerforce brand: http://www.flatlanderracing.com/scat-dampers.html

BTW - The Powerforce damper is drilled for both 4-bolt and 3-bolt pulleys, so no pulley mounting problems.

Good looking car! Drive the wheels off, and fix it if it breaks.

thanks Garth

Yes...Nice Car AND it's the Right Color!

Purity!!! I think a set of Group 4 taillights are in order. They really change the ass of the Panteras.

> i was told by the seller that this was the first rebuild - so why he went
> 40 over and not 30 over i don't know, i'll try to find out

The block may have been heavily worn and out-of-round, requiring that oversize
to clean up properly.

> peak torque of 475 ft lbs happens at 4,908 rpm
> peak hp of 491.8 happens at 6,301
> i think the dyno numbers show it is meant to run more around the 4,000 to 6,000 range...

For best acceleration, you shift approximately 500 RPM above the HP peak.
That's 6800 RPM for this engine. Given the 3.75" stroke, that's the
equivalent mean piston speed of 7000 RPM in a stock stroke 351C.
That's sporty for a street engine but as long as it pulls well in your
normal operating range, shouldn't be a problem. If, as I suspect, your
engine was tested with dyno headers and no mufflers (or efficient ones),
your engine, as installed, may make less power at a lower RPM. Typical
Pantera mufflers can lose 50+ HP on an engine like yours.

> when i called the head mfgr, they said the chamber size for the ported version
> is 78 (even though it says 74 on the website) - what does that change in your answer,
> if anything?

It means your compression ratio is slightly lower.

> if there is, does that take care of the "mismatch" issue that George points out?

Yes. It's hard to judge by the picture but the ported version of the heads may
have a larger port size at the head and your builder may have port matched the
manifold so the smaller intake port falls within the larger head port. If so,
the adapter plate isn't required. Not optimal but, in our dyno testing of 2V
intakes on 4V heads, the Air Gap 2V still worked pretty well that way.

> "Moroso stock depth pan with internal slosh baffles"

If you corner/brake/accelerate hard, that pan will be insufficient. When
you are shifting at 6800 RPM, you'll pump a lot of oil to the top of the
engine. What's left in the pan can slosh away from the pickup under simultaneous
hard braking and/or cornring. A gated and baffled Pantera road race pan is
what you need, Armondo makes a good one, as does Aviad.

> An inexpensive Damper option is the Powerforce+PLUS Series 9000 SFI APPROVED damper,
> Part No. D-90006.

That's a cheap Chinese damper trying to pass itself off as a quality part (the Powerbond
damper from Australia). If you google up guys who attempt to drag race with them, you'll
find a number who have suffered failures. The real Powerbond, Romac or ATI are better
parts.

Dan Jones

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel_Jones:
> > peak torque of 475 ft lbs happens at 4,908 rpm
> peak hp of 491.8 happens at 6,301
> i think the dyno numbers show it is meant to run more around the 4,000 to 6,000 range...

For best acceleration, you shift approximately 500 RPM above the HP peak.
That's 6800 RPM for this engine. Given the 3.75" stroke, that's the
equivalent mean piston speed of 7000 RPM in a stock stroke 351C.
That's sporty for a street engine but as long as it pulls well in your
normal operating range, shouldn't be a problem. If, as I suspect, your
engine was tested with dyno headers and no mufflers (or efficient ones),
your engine, as installed, may make less power at a lower RPM. Typical
Pantera mufflers can lose 50+ HP on an engine like yours.

does this mean that the redline for this engine is 6,800 rpm?

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel_Jones:
If, as I suspect, your engine was tested with dyno headers and no mufflers (or efficient ones), your engine, as installed, may make less power at a lower RPM. Typical Pantera mufflers can lose 50+ HP on an engine like yours.

the car has Hall big bore headers and mufflers - do they result in the kind of hp loss you are referring to?

thanks stephen

No. Redline is the maximum safe RPM. That can be set by
the valve train (valve springs, rockers, etc.) or the
rotating assembly (connecting rods, rod bolts, etc.).

I've not tested the Hall big bore system but others have and
report similar horsepower losses. The collector on the
Hall headers looks to be a restriction but you can cut and
weld on a different collector. We got all of HP loss back
by using Magnaflow straight through type mufflers. I'll
be testing 2.5" single inlet, dual 2.5" outlet versions of
those mufflers soon.

Dan Jones