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34 replies

What is YOUR opinion of free loading businesses?

George PGeorge PAdmin.
The amount of direct-promotion and second party promotion of commercial businesses has increased recently. None of the promotion is coming from businesses who sponsor the forums (support them financially). Most don't contribute content to the forums either ... outside of self promotion. It appears that in two of the situations I have on my mind members have been asked to post topics promoting products or events on behalf of commercial businesses.

SACC Restorations and Mr. Fiat sponsor the forums. They've proven their integrity, they've proven they care about your interests, and they shoulder a portion of the club's financial burden along with Debbie and I. These two businesses support your interests, with the hope that you'll return that support by sending your business their way. Please support SACC and Mr. Fiat. The balance of the cost of these forums (and the club's monthly budget) comes out of the fixed monthly retirement that Debbie and I have to live on.

There are 3 businessmen who regularly contribute to the forums by sharing their knowledge: Mike Mayberry, Jack Sharkey, and Ron McCall. As far as we're concerned these guys have earned their place here. A fourth, Kirk Evans, contributes his knowledge sometimes ... we wish he would consider contributing more often. When he does contribute, its always good stuff. We hope these guys know that we care about them, and respect their place in the De Tomaso community.

Businesses advertised within these forums outside of those six are free loaders. These other merchants have chosen to keep their money in their pockets, and let SACC, Mr. Fiat, Debbie and I shoulder the expense of these forums alone. SACC and Mr. Fiat haven't complained. Debbie and I aren't complaining either, we love you guys. But what you don't know is that a few of these free loading businesses have been asked to sponsor the forums via banner advertisement, and they didn't even have the integrity to honor us with a reply, they've just left us hanging unanswered. We haven't identified them, we've never sullied the reputation of anyone. Those who've left us hanging are taking advantage of even our silence. Some of these businesses are among those you guys promote as being so great to do business with.

Have you experienced the results of the changes in the US tax laws? Every Pantera business and 351C business now has the extra money to sponsor your club and forums!

Statistics prove that you folks have chosen these forums as your source for information and as a way to communicate with each other. For that reason these forums and this club exist today, to support you in the non-commercial way we do. We've established a format that is non-commercial, and that operates on as low of a budget as possible. What you may not understand however is that the price of the forums grows a bit each and every month. Even the price of the club phone went up last year, AT&T is charging us $130 month for our phone service! LOL Roll Eyes Debbie and I cannot support the club (and forums) from our pocket indefinitely, we live on a fixed income. There is no emergency nor drama. But these are your forums, Debbie and I as the caretakers would like to know your opinions. Most internet sites do not allow free loaders; do we continue to allow the free loaders? If not, are you willing to live with the consequences? This may be a touchy subject for you, but please feel welcome and safe to speak your opinion.

Keep in mind that everyone reads these forums! The freeloaders will read your opinions too.
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markcharltonmarkcharltonOld enough to know better and still young enough not to care. My '71 Pantera
George,

You and Debbie have done all of us a HUGE service by maintaining this forum to the benefit of us all. It’s a community and we need to work together to keep it going. Sometimes that means taxes.

The gt40s.com forum has a model that seems to work very well. There are several levels of membership ranging from free to lifetime. Everyone can read and post at no cost, but ONLY paid members (and the rates are low) can post items for sale. In addition to ad fees, Manufacturers and “Pros” have a different class of membership. Importantly the level of “commitment” is shown as part of the member profile so you can see who is truly supporting things.

I’ll be the first to say I’m willing to sign up as paid member number 1 when you (if you) decided to go that route.
joulesjoules"Racing is Life, anything before or after is just waiting" - Steve McQueen
I can't say I have noticed the other 'freeloading' businesses you mention, I will have to pay closer attention now you have raised the point.

Personally I don't think the sponsoring businesses are highlighted enough. It would be great to see SACC or Mr. Fiat (or any other future sponsor) have a section where they have an opportunity to review products etc. or at a minimum a rotating banner with monthly specials. A dedicated section would probably need to be of limited open discussion to avoid everyone jumping in with their alternative.

I have also used the forum to sell wares (Reproduction De Tomaso signs) and would be open to a percentage of sales going to PI, that way the members support the forum with their purchase. I'd rather you have the fees than eBay! Perhaps a classified section could work that way for all? Most people list on here with a note offering parts prior to eBay or with an eBay link anyway! It's an honor payment system, but the likes of Racing Junk seem to make it work.

Mark used GT40's as a comparison and I'm a lifetime member there, the $300 was a small investment IMO and I expect I'll contribute again before my 'lifetime' is up...

That's my 2 cents...
R rrs1Member
Being an administrator on another site, I see what you're getting at George. There is a classified section for those wanting to sell personal items that have accumulated over the years, and that should stay free, then there are those that are actively buying, or making parts for resale as a business, which is not allowed without a sponsorship to the site. Could be a yearly fee, or whatever. If you feel this is what you want to do, then you should state it in the header of the forum, or a sticky in the parts for sale forum. Those that don't want to pay the fee for sponsorship, can sell their items at a discount to one of the vendors that does. I have done this on a part I had manufactured. Yes, it is nice to have no costs associated with selling, but there are darn few places that allow it. Everybody has to pay.
plt-1plt-1Member
If you want to generate funds for site management, I vote for raffles !

Two bucks a ticket for a chance to win Pantera parts Thumbs Up! !

Get a part worth 50 bucks, 50 entries at 2 bucks each and the site makes 50 bucks and someone gets a great Pantera part for two bucks. Thumbs Up!
It's fun and will generate site traffic for drawing nite...
Last edited by plt-1
robborrusorobborrusoMember
Hi George and Debbie,
Many of us value these communities as places to commiserate with other car crazy nuts, share projects, techniques, tips/tricks which has value to us.

So, I'm with many of the opinions already shared;

- Freeloading can be screened out w/ site restrictions. Businesses should certainly have commercial costs associated with generating revenue on the forum.

- As with Mark Charlton & Joules, I too am a paid member on the GT40s forum, and can only ditto word for word Mark's remarks. I seldom frequent it in recent years, heck ....I hardly have time to visit this forum. But, I still value these forums when I can find time to join in on discussions.

- I think PLT-1's raffle idea is a cool and fun way to generate revenue on a regular... weekly or monthly basis. Might be something worth considering. Heck, maybe even contact Summit racing for example and see if they would be interested in bartering parts for ad banners, then you could raffle parts w/ no true money costs to you.

Honestly, I'm disheartened to know that your management of the site is net-negative for you two. I hope you guys find a means you feel acceptable to you to, which at min achieve net-zero, so it stays fun for you and doesn't impact your retirement income.

Best, Rob
whitebirdwhitebirdMember
I have visited this forum for several years before i purchased my Pantera #3629 last year.
Without this forum and the contributors who impart their valuable knowledge, it would have taken me decades to learn the basics of the Pantera and at a great cost I certainly would not mind paying a fee to subscribe.Thank you George and Debbie for what you do!
lf-tp2511lf-tp2511Member
George,

You lost me in the first paragraph. I honestly have no idea, apparently like Julian, what you are viewing as freeloaders, self promotion and secondhand promotion. I just honestly have no clue.

I can't do anything with the six paragraphs that follow because I do not understand what they are based upon.

Perhaps a private message to me that fills me in on exactly what you are referencing will help?

Larry
dvildvilI'm here sometimes
George,
Thank you for keeping this forum alive. It's existence is important to me, for several reasons.
I too don't see who the freeloaders are. Promotion for services that's related to the DeTomaso ownership is welcome to me. I feel it's a plus and contributes to a living Forum. Often I see vendors contribute to discussions. Of course, sometimes followed by solutions off their business. No problem, I would say. Again, welcome!

Your problem is financing this excellent Forum. I don't see the solution in charging some users just because they are offering something for sale, as long as it's relevant.
I suggest you try promoting an optional donation, and see how that turns out. I for sure are more than willing to. The sum? I really have no clue right now.

A raffle could of course be fun, but not very convenient for us living far away. We have to pay quite a lot for receiving something we may not need.
plt-1plt-1Member
I have also sold parts on other forums that were good parts but, by the time you pay me and shipping it's kinda' zero net.
In those cases, I have asked for the buyer to send ten bucks or some reasonable token fee, to the moderator and pay shipping, when the moderator says ship it, I bill for shipping and send it....

These are parts that, if another Pantera owner was standing here, I would probably give away. Too good to throw out, but really not worth that much.

So dig around, start a bidding war to benefit the moderator for those... stickers, old fan motors, a new "T" shirt, I'm sure a vendor would throw in a T shirt, etc..

For those parts that are of hight value, how about this "Buy this part and ten bucks to the moderator".... Etc...

I will dig around for some stuff myself...
S stelios101Member
Hi George,
This site is in my opinion in the top 5% of similar sites and that's because of you and your efforts so I would be more than happy to pay for the privilege of being a member but be aware whilst your time is valuable as is everyone else's if you add a subscription service then you will HAVE to spend your time collecting the money which I reckon will bore you and I believe you'll end up giving us less of your great advice which will be to the detriment of this great site.
Perhaps you should try to get a figure in your mind for you to continue and let us know what that is as I believe it would only take a few hundred of us to contribute say at $50 each that would amount to $10,000, I have made up these figures as an example and am not trying to influence you in any way.
What I DON'T want is for this site to shut down and for that I am willing to pay as i believe many others are.
Thanks for your efforts.
racecarmikeracecarmikeMember
George,

This forum has been extremely helpful and valuable to me in my pursuit of rebuilding my Pcar. You and Debbie have done a great job making this forum easy to use, informative, interesting and maybe most important, civil. We all know how dysfunctional some forums can be.

As far as 'freeloading' businesses go I have not notice much of that. I’m sure you are much more sensitive to that than anyone. Not sure what can be done about that unless you change the forum format. I doubt that you want to become a forum hardball police person to enforce the rules.

IMHO, this forum, for the most part, should be left as is. Forums with multi-levels of membership are confusing for my simple mind. Strongly encouraging real business to financially support this forum is a good idea. Maybe they need a warning of some sort. Joules’ idea of a special section for supporting vendors makes sense. This forum is a valuable advertising resource for related business and they should contribute in some way.

IMHO, we all should show some support on some level. Everyone here can afford to make a voluntary donation once a year. I have no idea what the yearly expenses are to run the forum but some voluntary donation would surely help. Maybe a yearly fund drive like what Wikipedia does might ease the financial burden. It can be run until you reach the target amount. Just my 2 cents.

Personally, I would hate to see this forum drastically change or disappear. The financial burden should not be all yours. If it takes paid membership count me. PM sent for instruction on where to send my donation.
adoberetreatadoberetreatMember
With all respect I don't think calling some of the vendors or contributors "Free loaders" is the best choice of words, even though I do sympathize with your plight. Remember, this is your forum, your website. We are all aware that you have kicked off and banned some participants here because they expressed an opinion that you didn't like. While I don't love that tactic, I can't really say a word because at the end of the day it's your site and you are free to do with it what you will. Likewise, it was your decision to have merely a voluntary donation system so if someone decides not to financially contribute to your site, well remember, it was voluntary and not mandatory per your rules, right?

Since its your site and your rules, its incumbent on you to set up a system to make sure you don't have to dig into your retirement each month. You can set up a modest yearly membership if you want. You can charge a commission when people sell items here. You can charge vendors more since they are a business enterprise if you deem that appropriate. You can do whatever you like actually. (For my part, I decided to buy some DeTomaso baseball caps, some t-shirts, and a beautiful DeTomaso Windbreaker from your site because I felt I should contribute in some small way to your forum-I suggest that you put these for sale items that you offer on the FIRST PAGE to get more attention-they are really great items! After you set up a plan to make ends meet, depending on how much you charge, you may lose some members. Or you may lose a few commercial contributors. Or you may lose nobody at all. That's the free market at work. I'm sure you'll be just fine if the charge is relatively modest. And when you set this mandatory financial contribution for people who use this forum, you won't have to pick and choose who you consider cheapskates.
haydudehaydudeMember
George,
I know you and Debbie have dedicated a lot of effort and time in to this over the years. Thank you again for that. So while some think it's all up to you they should also respect all that you have done. And maybe they have, let's look at options. Add a "Please contribute" option. There are a lot of sites that to this. Don't be too proud to ask for money, (the government asks every month and we cannot say no). I know I will contribute. How can we get the younger kids involved? I'm one of them just getting my car 5 years ago, Anyway. food for thought. That's my 3 cents after inflation.
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