what to do

gt5-9189,

A lot of guys are going with stroked Windsors and are very happy with the power output and reliability from them. Check a few threads under 'Engine Technical Advice & Questions' to see what works best.

Michael

I agree with Michael,

since the car already had a 351W installed, stuffing in another 351W makes the most sense and least amount of headaches for you. Ford Racing has a 351W crate motor, 392 cubic inches, 430 bhp/450 ft-lbs, $6800 USD. Jerry at PI raises the ante with 427 cubic inches, >500 bhp and $10K USD. Just too simple to drop one of these 2 motors into the car in place of the dead motor.

your friend on the DTBB, George

First, verify that it really is a windsor block. People have stuffed all kinds of engines into Pantera. Once you identify the motor options are abound. I have done the windsor option, if you have the headers and plumbing all sorted out it is an easy replacement. Crate motors are the way to go. There are several options some from Ford MotorSport. I went with Coast High performance and they even had warranty to boot.

so looking for 6 bolt rockers is not the only thing i must look for to establish the type of engine i have. well it also has the fuel pump. oil filter and fuel filter on the left hand side of the motor. also the iol pressure switch is that side also, cant see any numbers under the crud. if the best advice is to stick with the 351w then prehaps i should get this one rebuilt here in saudi as the cost of good labore is 10 % of US costs.

For under $10K I rebuilt my 351C into a very driveable 522 HP with 510 FT LBS of torque. See details here:

http://www.canspan.com/pantera/eng_parts.htm
http://www.canspan.com/pantera/eng_parts1.htm
http://www.canspan.com/pantera/engine1.htm

David,

Nice dyno numbers. The HP and Torque peaks are at very streetable RPMs.

Michael

Very easy driver and lots of grunt. Although, peaking at 6,000, I sometimes wish I could just keep going...

David,

your engine is bitchen. you know, Art Francis swears his heads aren't street heads! I agree with Michael, good powerband and the right amount of torque & bhp. I personally can not understand why anybody would want more.

500 ft/lbs from a Cleveland street motor with hydraulic lifters! Man from my perspective, having worked on these motors back in the '70s & '80s, I still find these numbers just awesome. Most solid lifter builds back then were 450/450 and revved to 7000 rpm! Not quite so streetable as yours.

Hey, while I'm thinking of it, which exhaust ports are your heads equipped with (Blue Thunder heads have a choice) and which headers are bolted up to your motor? Inquiring minds want to know. Just an old gear head trying to stay current.

your friend on the DTBB, George

Deeb, is that from an engine dyno? Would you have chasis dyno numbers to compare as well?

Gary

Phew! I was wondering if I'd pass the Pence-ive George test. Glad you like it. Dan Van Auken in Detroit did a super job on the motor.

We dyno'd single and dual plane intakes and based on the numbers I went with the single plane. See enclosed comparison.

George, I didn't know there was a choice on the Blue Thunder heads so I don't know which one I have. But I the headers are Hall GTS "big bore" coated headers (see pic on next post as we made room for the motor to fit).

Gary - on a chassis dyno (SAE Dynojet) HP maxed out at 415 at 5900 RPM and torque was 415 at 4600 RPM. I was not impressed and don't know what to make of this. Do you? George?

(see header pics as we made room for engine)

David THANKS, you kind of answered my question, but you raised another one.

The BT heads have "Yates" ports. The Yates exhaust port is rather square, I've always thought a 4V exhaust header might bolt right up, apparently so. You probably have the "low" exhaust port, the higher port would probably have created interference between the chassis & exhaust system.

The question you raise is that you tested the motor with a dual plane intake. Have any idea which dual plane intake & what was done to make it fit? I was not aware any dual plane Cleveland intake could be made to fit a pair of Yates type heads on a C block.

I hope I don't come across as a critical SOB! All joking aside, your motor epitomizes what I preach here on the DTBB. Stroker crank, hydraulic roller cam, modern alloy heads, 500 ft/lbs of torque, all in a drivable & reliable package, nothing radical, with a powerband around 2000 to 6000 rpm. It happens to look bitchen too! Your motor is the George Pence Poster Motor!

your friend on the DTBB, George

Panteras tend to have about 20% power losses due to the drive train, 20% of 500 flywheel bhp would be 100 bhp, so chassis dyno figures near 400 are about right on the money!

Front engine rear drive cars loose even more, about 25%.

Engines also test worse on the chassis dyno due to the exhaust system, air filter (if its installed) and real world things like that, that's why I like chassis dynos, they are real world, engine dynos don't tell the whole story.

George

Piecing together photos with notes from work orders, I assume they did the following:

1 - Fabricated intake manifold spacers from 6061-T6 billet aluminum to mount intake correctly with Blue Thunder heads.

2 - Port spacers to match heads and Edelbrock dual plane manifold.

3 - Port match Ford Motorsport “Yates” style single plane intake manifold for A – B intake power comparison.

Thank you again David for staying up late & posting the photos, answering my questions. Wow, they really had to fab some big spacers to make that performer fit!

This is all too much, looking at your dyno sheet, your engine made 516 ft/lbs of torque at 4500 rpm, 502 bhp at 5700 rpm, with an Edelbrock Performer intake! Gives me new respect for that intake manifold. Bitchen!

You lost 30 ft/lbs of torque at 4000 rpm with the single plane intake. Too bad they didn't start their sweep at 2000 rpm, I would have loved to have seen the comparison at the lower end of the powerband. Notice that between 4000 & 6000 rpm, the average torque & bhp are identicle.

Bottom line, your engine is equally powerful, or perhaps more powerful, than the engines that the Panteras ran at LeMans in 1972. Your engine is also an equal to the latest 7 liter engine installed in the Z06 Corvette & the 8 liter engine installed in the Viper.

Think I need a cold shower! lol..........

your friend on the DTBB, George

I blow away the Vipers, Ferarris and Porsches in my hood, but always figured it was because the light footed yuppies were afraid of keeping their foot in it long enough.

But to have the PIBB engine guru tell me this is enough to make a grown man cry. I am truly honoured - enough to try one of those buttery nipples. What the heck are they anyway?

So now... going back to that old post of mine, tell me how I can face that rice rocket buddy of mine and come away victorious, without leaving my ZF in pieces.

Now you're talkin'......

A buttery nipple is 2 parts butterscotch schnapps and 1 part Bailey's Irish Cream, no ice.

To beat the rice rocket, start in second gear, you'll just have to leave the light at a little bit higher rpm, but you'll be able to hit 70 mph (115 kph) before you need to shift (assuming you're running 4.22 final drive gearing). Then it's just a straight pull back into 3rd gear, no dog leg shift, bye bye rice rocket.

your buttery friend on the DTBB, George