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Which Header?

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ahudsonahudsonMember
First, make a call to Pat Mical, www.patsauto.com at (978)649-2211. I have his headers - and though costlier than the others - has a larger primary than others I checked, sounds incredible, was ceramic coated, fit flawlessly.

The special projects tech at Roush told me, "I know I shouldn't say this working here and all, but that's the nicest set of headers I may have ever seen."

They also happen to sound just incredible. At least give Pat a call.
J jffrMember
quote:
Originally posted by 4NFORD:
I'm currently running a set of Hall "Big Bore" headers that came on my '73. I was planning to replace them with either P.I. Matsumoto designed or Larry Stock's (Hedman?)headers. Any input as to which is better? I don't like how my Hall Big Bores reduce into that tiny collector.


I had a set of Hall Big Bores and replaced them with the ceramic coated P.I Big Tubes with the crossover pipe and their straight through mufflers. I did notice a performance gain over the Big Bores and they are not any louder than the Hall units. The P.I headers also fit on my new CHI 2V aluminum heads, which made that conversion easier. My choice would be the P.I units because I don't think that you could get anything better.
Last edited by jffr
ahudsonahudsonMember
quote:
Originally posted by 4NFORD:
Adams,

What was the price of Pat's headers? I heard that they are nice but may not fit into my budget.


Pat made very few, owns the custom jigs, specced 'em for himself. I THINK but am not sure he has maybe 3 whole sets left. Let him tell you the engineering differences, the dyno numbers he pulled, fitment issues solved. Mine were $1600. I gulped hard, paid him and am glad I have them.
G GhostRidr (Guest)
I've got a set of the Mindtrain headers on mine, which is the same thing I think PI sells now, and they sound much louder, and better, than Hall Big Bores. I don't know what the cost difference is, as mine were on the car when I got it, but if it were me, I'd choose the PI. Pat's might be nice, but I can't see them being $1000 more nice.
J jffrMember
quote:
Originally posted by GhostRidr:
I've got a set of the Mindtrain headers on mine, which is the same thing I think PI sells now, and they sound much louder, and better, than Hall Big Bores. I don't know what the cost difference is, as mine were on the car when I got it, but if it were me, I'd choose the PI. Pat's might be nice, but I can't see them being $1000 more nice.


The old Mind Train headers and P.I's big tubes are the same system. I agree that they sound much better than Hall's and I am sure that they flow much better. I don't remember what my whole system with the cross over cost, but I am sure that it was less than $1000.00
George PGeorge PAdmin.
Keep in mind that when we discuss steel tubing, like the tubing exhaust systems are made from, the dimensions we are discussing are outside diameter dimensions.

The 351C 4V likes 1 7/8" to 2" primaries. The 351C 2V likes 1 3/4" primaries. Somebody more familiar with the SBC or Windsor Ford scene will be puzzled, because those motors operate with smaller sized primaries. The GTS exhaust system, while not the best Pantera exhaust system, is somewhat of a standard to compare other exhaust systems to; it has 2" primaries.

The downfall of many Pantera exhaust systems is the collector design, in short, some of the Pantera headers dont have a collector, or the collector they have is too small in OD. A good collector will be made from 3" to 3 1/2" tubing. The collector design is where you'll find the biggest differences in Pantera header design. The larger & longer it is, the better the exhaust system will work. Even if the compromise was shortening the length of the primaries to allow a longer collector, it was a good choice by the designer.

Much of the nuance in exhaust design is lost when they are used in conjunction with mufflers. And that's were the Pantera is really challenged. To make a muffler that is both quiet and free flowing, requires physical size, there is no way around that. The Pantera has room for two mufflers about 10" to 12" in length, period. Look at the size of the muffler system on any modern performance car, its a box like structure the size of a good suit case. The muffler on my sons 250 cc Honda dirt bike is larger than a Pantera muffler! The MagnaFlow mufflers sold by PI Motorsports do a good job of keeping the exhaust quiet while minimizing back pressure and maximizing exhaust flow. They have quite a following outside of the Pantera world, amongst the sport compact & Mustang guys. The problem is, they dont list a muffler can in their catalog that is only 10" to 12" in length.

Other issues of course are fitment, build quality and finish. All things that need to be considered. The typical exhaust system wants to rust out & look ugly real fast, better materials of construction (like stainless steel) and quality coatings (like ceramic) are well worth the additional expense if they are available. Ceramic coated headers have the additional benefit of keeping engine compartment temperatures down.

cowboy from hell
Last edited by George P
C comp2Member
There are a several web sites which you can run your engine numbers to see what is ideal for your engine. At the end of the day there are only a couple variations to standard headers.

Everything in the exhaust system is a trade off. Going bigger is going to help at higher rpm but loose torq down low. The length of the collectors will change the power band as well.

A smaller collector can be used if the primaries are timed right. With out the right timing the air will bunch up more on certain cycles and change the wave form. This is not possible to get perfect without a cross over pipe.

The other option is to make the collectors larger so the cycles don't bunch up.

Tuning of the pipes comes form building them to the right length to send a pules back helping to suck the air out. This is RPM specific.

In my opinion, if you are not going to scientifically break down, analyze or have the ability to control the overall tube lengths, match tube lengths, the cycles, the waves, matched to the cam, the duration, the overlap, the rpm band, the next best thing to do is just go larger collectors as not to impede the exhaust flow.
4nford4nford"Live wrong and Perspire"
quote:
Originally posted by Cowboy from Hell:
Keep in mind that when we discuss steel tubing, like the tubing exhaust systems are made from, the dimensions we are discussing are outside diameter dimensions.

The 351C 4V likes 1 7/8" to 2" primaries. The 351C 2V likes 1 3/4" primaries. Somebody more familiar with the SBC or Windsor Ford scene will be puzzled, because those motors operate with smaller sized primaries. The GTS exhaust system, while not the best Pantera exhaust system, is somewhat of a standard to compare other exhaust systems to; it has 2" primaries.

The downfall of many Pantera exhaust systems is the collector design, in short, some of the Pantera headers dont have a collector, or the collector they have is too small in OD. A good collector will be made from 3" to 3 1/2" tubing. The collector design is where you'll find the biggest differences in Pantera header design. The larger & longer it is, the better the exhaust system will work. Even if the compromise was shortening the length of the primaries to allow a longer collector, it was a good choice by the designer.

Much of the nuance in exhaust design is lost when they are used in conjunction with mufflers. And that's were the Pantera is really challenged. To make a muffler that is both quiet and free flowing, requires physical size, there is no way around that. The Pantera has room for two mufflers about 10" to 12" in length, period. Look at the size of the muffler system on any modern performance car, its a box like structure the size of a good suit case. The muffler on my sons 250 cc Honda dirt bike is larger than a Pantera muffler! The MagnaFlow mufflers sold by PI Motorsports do a good job of keeping the exhaust quiet while minimizing back pressure and maximizing exhaust flow. They have quite a following outside of the Pantera world, amongst the sport compact & Mustang guys. The problem is, they dont list a muffler can in their catalog that is only 10" to 12" in length.

Other issues of course are fitment, build quality and finish. All things that need to be considered. The typical exhaust system wants to rust out & look ugly real fast, better materials of construction (like stainless steel) and quality coatings (like ceramic) are well worth the additional expense if they are available. Ceramic coated headers have the additional benefit of keeping engine compartment temperatures down.

cowboy from hell


I've been looking into mufflers. I like the sound of a local members Flowmaster 40 exhaust system that he had custom made for his Pantera. He used part number 9530452 which has a 3" in and 2-2.5" out. Flowmaster also has part number 9425400 which is a bit quieter and even physically smaller and has a 2.5" in and 2-2.5" outs. His setup can be seen/heard here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwszLpwL3PE
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