At about 2500 rpm I have a slight vibration/noise, in 3rd 4th and 5th. Not noticeable in neutral. Have changed oil no change. Plan to run the car on hoist at 2500 to try and determine what it is, is this ok practice ? Any thoughts on what it could be ? Thanks Andrew.
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Running a car on a hoist is always a dangerous situation but at times its the only way to find the issue. If the car can be lifted and secured to the lift itself with straps, that is a better situation. Have you checked the CV joints on the axles themselves? I would give a call to Jack Sharkey at Pantera of Miami and ask him his thoughts or anyone else you know that sees a large number of cars. Owners usually do have answers but Jack may of seen this before and cut a large amount of trouble shooting for you. Again, I would try the running on a lift myself if I can't find someone with input but make sure before going under that the car is secure incase of any sudden movement or violent vibration that could shift the car. Just my .02 This hobby is very fun make sure you are around to enjoy it!
Good Luck
Are you sure the noise/vibration is coming from the ZF? If you are; since the issue occurs at a particular engine RPM, regardless of speed or in a certain gear, it probably has something to do with the input shaft. If you’re lucky, it’s external, which means pilot bushing or throw out bearing. Otherwise, perhaps an input shaft bearing. From there, it gets more ugly. Either way, you’ll be pulling the ZF to diagnose. Dumb question: is your R&P safety wired?
Running the car on the lift creates problems. The locking differential only works with both tires on the ground, otherwise it goes open and as a result may make some new noises you never heard of as it tries to determine which side to drive.
It isn't good for the differential.
If you are new to Panteras, then also make sure you are not chasing something that is normal for these cars. I think you will find a lot (all?) ZFs make a bit of noise and there is a bit of vibration. I have heard from others that after changing from the standard drive axles with universal joints to CV joints, what a big difference in smoothness there is... That said, also make sure the bolts to the drive axels are tight, the universal joints are O.K. and not spinning in their yokes etc.
@davidnunn posted:Are you sure the noise/vibration is coming from the ZF? If you are; since the issue occurs at a particular engine RPM, regardless of speed or in a certain gear, it probably has something to do with the input shaft. If you’re lucky, it’s external, which means pilot bushing or throw out bearing. Otherwise, perhaps an input shaft bearing. From there, it gets more ugly. Either way, you’ll be pulling the ZF to diagnose. Dumb question: is your R&P safety wired?
Hi not 100% sure its ZF, but have eliminated it from motor, as not evident when revved up in neutral. Don`t know if trans has been safety wired. Not much info from previous owner. Noise is constant and has not got worse in the year I`ve had the car.
@panteradoug posted:Running the car on the lift creates problems. The locking differential only works with both tires on the ground, otherwise it goes open and as a result may make some new noises you never heard of as it tries to determine which side to drive.
It isn't good for the differential.
Thanks for that advice.
@timsteren posted:If you are new to Panteras, then also make sure you are not chasing something that is normal for these cars. I think you will find a lot (all?) ZFs make a bit of noise and there is a bit of vibration. I have heard from others that after changing from the standard drive axles with universal joints to CV joints, what a big difference in smoothness there is... That said, also make sure the bolts to the drive axels are tight, the universal joints are O.K. and not spinning in their yokes etc.
Yep I`m a pantera newbee, only had the car for a year. One good thing is the noise /vibration has not got worse, I`ll check drive axel bolts, thanks.
FYI, you should change the gear oil in a ZF annually. Next time you do that, stick your pinky through the drain plug hole and see if you can feel the ring gear bolts. If you can, you should be able to tell if they are safety wired or not. I’ve never tried to do it but I am told you can. Failing that, buy or borrow a borescope.
Perhaps Bosswrench will chime in. He would know if the pinky trick works.
The u-joints start to get noisy when they are on their way out.
If that happens it's probably better to bite the bullet and go for cv joints? The u-joints are not the most reliable system going. They were just all that was available back then.
@panteradoug posted:The u-joints start to get noisy when they are on their way out.
If that happens it's probably better to bite the bullet and go for cv joints? The u-joints are not the most reliable system going. They were just all that was available back then.
Hi Doug, So what cv joints would I buy ? And where can i get them ? Thanks Andrew
How about patronizing one of our sponsors SACC. They sell CV
@italford posted:How about patronizing one of our sponsors SACC. They sell CV
You'll notice they are no longer listed. Haven't been for a while now. All they advertise are the boots.
darn
years ago when I was restoring my pantera none of the vendors had a CV kit for sale. I remember someone posted plans from Australia to construct adapters that used the 930 CV joint. I ended up constructing my own sourcing parts from my local off road shop that specialized in sand cars. They stocked the axles and CV joints. We made the adapters in house on our lathe. It took lots of time I recall.
If I were you I would contact Scott at SACC and ask him about it. If you can buy the adapters that would be a huge step in the right direction.
The CV kits have kind of dried up. All the parts for rebuilding the stock rear axles are available at Hall.
There has always been risk in committing the car to part modifications which may not have replacement parts available to them. That never has been a good long term strategy.
There are going to be those that have Royal hissy fits and will lecture us all on our lack of vision. Let them supply the parts now to their better solutions and put up or shut up.
I would SUSPECT though that the CV kits were never in large supplies similar to the power steering kits and essentially have to be put together for each customer as an order comes in? Call SAAC Restorations and ask them about availability.
I know Hall doesn't offer them and we know the Byers situation, not that they ever had them so the only other source might be Pantera Miami or Pantera Performance in Colorado. Other then that, you are going to have to make them yourself.
I wouldn't know where the parts were sourced from but I heard Porsche 930 mentioned previously suggesting that's what you start with and then make adapters for it?
Personally I still have the u-joints and am using Halls modified u-joints with no issues. You can get u-joints from Hall at a reasonable price.
I would say that if the existing axles are ok, leave them alone. "If it ain't broken...don't fix it".
Just because they aren't on SACC's web site, doesn't mean they don't have them. Just call or e-mail Scott. The only non off-the-shelf parts of the kit are the U-Joint to CV adapters and SACC manufactures them in-house.
You won't realize how much vibration is caused by your U-Jointed half-shafts until you switch to CV's. CV half-shafts also weigh significantly less than their U-Jointed counterparts.
I think the original CV joint conversions were simply bolt on's from the 1990-1993 Pantera Si. Or adapted from Porsche or BMW axles. There never were many of the Si's made so its no wonder the supply dried up.
Bosswrench, I remember visiting Lloyd's shop and saw axle stubs that were shaped for the 930 CV joint instead of the more common 4-bolt axle stubs that we all have. He said the right way to do the conversion is to change that axle stubs. I don't know if this is a part that is available or something he makes that is special. Either way I wasn't about to disassemble my ZF to do the conversion. One of the things that led me to making my own adapters is, the Bora I own has CV axles and Maserati used adapters to convert the 4 bolt axle stubs to round CV bolt pattern. I figured if it worked well for the Bora why couldn't it work for the Pantera.
As far a sourcing parts in the future - I don't care that the vendors stock them or not. There are plenty of shops that sell sand car parts and they sell the 930 CV's, Boots, and Axle shafts. There is no magic here.
Last time I checked, SACC had two different styles of CV conversion kits; one using adapters and the other using new ZF stub axles and outboard CV companion flanges. The latter is obviously much more expensive. CV stub axles have been available from ZF, and later on RBT, since the late 1970’s. My M1 ZF came from the factory with CV stub axles. I believe SACC machines their ZF CV stub axles in-house.
ALL differentials wear- especially clutch type limited slips- and that makes 'noise'. You may need to have a knowlegable person drive your car, as long distance noise diagnosis is near-impossible. I'd hate to have you go thru this exercise, spend money and find out the noise you describe is simply a worn ring & pinion set or a mis-shimmed side gear. On the other hand if thats what it is, it's an opportunity to re-gear to 3.77 or other for cruising.
@Kiwi1972Pantera posted:At about 2500 rpm I have a slight vibration/noise, in 3rd 4th and 5th. Not noticeable in neutral. Have changed oil no change. Plan to run the car on hoist at 2500 to try and determine what it is, is this ok practice ? Any thoughts on what it could be ? Thanks Andrew.
Hi Everyone..I made a video of my noise issue and sent it to Performance Pantera , this is what they said ...Sounds like something is rubbing the engine cover. Maybe your engine mount bushings are bad and the engine is lifting a little well under power and causing something to rub the cover.
And yes I have rub marks on the inside engine cover. So not quite as bad as i originally though. Thank you all for your replies and help.
Hi Everyone, ZF Noise is ZF Noise, and it was nothing as we thought above. Turns out the main ZF bearing is the culprit No 423 thanks to Lloyd at RBT. Now will be pulling the ZF out to inspect/ replace bearings and seals, the motors coming out too and we`ll tidy gaskets and a leak.
