10Qt pan oil volume

quote:

Has anyone looked at where the dipstick markings are in relation to the crank with the pan off?

You mean like this?

Dumb end of the tape is roughly at crank centerline. Full level of oil is a little over 5 1/2 inches below the crank centerline.

I agree with the idea that the oil level is supposed to be kept low enough to keep the engine from spinning in the oil. Correct.

In re-examing my oil level, mine is at the top line of the safe marking.

Exactly what is in my pan is difficult to ascertain.

I have a remote oil cooler, about 10 feet of -10 hose and a dual remote oil filter. I "think" of it as a 12 quart system.

Deduct that and whatever is left over is in the pan.

WHATEVER the actual number is, the dip stick level should be the determining factor BUT, read this.

The procedure for determining the capacity of the pan at this point on a running engine, 1)leave the filter in place since it is already filled with oil 2)fill the pan with oil until it is somewhere in the "safe" zone. Whatever that quantity is, that's what the pan holds.

If I'm not mistaken, I think that pan was also referred to as an 8 quart pan also? I did talk to AVIAID and they were a little vague on being pinned down to exactly what the pan would hold.

http://www.fordification.com/tech/dipstick.htm



What Ford did with the 428CJ oiling issues was to increase the amount of oil originally specified for the 428 by two quarts and to make a new dipstick to indicate that the extra two quarts, 6 quarts total, was correct for that engine.

Now the sidebar on this subject is an interesting one. That being that there is only ONE oil pan that Ford made for the 1958 352 through the 1973 390 in cars. Trucks is another subject.

That INCLUDES all of the versions of the 427, the 406, the 410, etc.

They never noticed warranty claims for oil starvation UNTIL they built the 68 Cobra Jet 428's!

However, the solution of adding two extra quarts to the one and only FE oil pan guaranteed that the crankshaft was now partially submerged in crankcase oil.

What did they do to fix this? They added a single simple "wind age tray" (IF you could call it that) to the oil pan assembly simply by sandwiching it between the bottom of the block and the pan, double gasketing it and using longer bolts for the pan. CHEAPO!

So really the implication here is that partially submerging the crankshaft does not hurt the durability or the operation of the internal reciprocating assembly.

MAYBE it is as Shakespeare said, "Much to do about nothing"?

Yada, yada, yada...what did he know about engines. Sure.

Tonto too.

Now Yancy Derringer's body guard, Pahoo-ka-ta-wah maybe? He looks smart. Great with a scatter gun too.

I wouldn't know for sure? I think he was Chockta or Pawnee. I can't tell the difference. They told me I'm Apache. What do I know? I'm no Sherlock Clouseau after all.

Thanks for all the tips, but that's what I get buying cars already modified. Who knows where the level should be or how much to really put in the pan other than as suggested by Julian and take the pan off & take a look see. On my red 5S with Fontana engine I have good records on that and 9qt was put in each time on all prior oil changes with the prior owner. Even then, who knows, but at least its something historically.

This time I put in 8.5 and measured then took it to the usual historical 9. Even then as shown in the photos below, one side of the stick shows a patch in the middle (but I assume that empty mark on the middle of the stick is where it is rubbing on the inside of the tube when I am drawing it out). WTF I need a drink.


9Qt by JanDaMan, on Flickr
9Qt by JanDaMan, on Flickr
Refreshments by JanDaMan, on Flickr

I read that pan as overfull. I don't think you need to look inside at all. I'm not familiar with the Fontana block.
Perhaps it has a different skirt length than a Ford block does?

I'm sure there is someone here that knows them and can comment on that.

Just get a clean oil catch pan, drain it all out and put it back in a quart at a time until you get to the safe zone.

I think you are a quart over BUT one of the things we would tell people who were doing their first high speed event on a race track was to put an extra quart in the pan.

It couldn't hurt but it could save your engine.

You want to worry about oil in the pan? I had severe paranoia the first time I was on a banked track. What do you do to keep the oil near the sump when you are at about 30 degrees from flat? Maybe more?

I forget. The blood in my head was going sideways.

Then Bob Bonduraunt passed me running WAY THE F up on the banks against the rail flat out in a 289 Cobra and I felt like a wussy!

I will say in my own defense though that I am one of the few that I know of that HAS, as in previously, ancient history, spun in their own oil. Talk about a freaky disorienting occurrence?

Trust me on this...you will never forget that!

Good thing they make adult Depends is all I can say. I won't drive anywhere without 'em! Don't want to stain the leather on the seats!

quote:

Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:...Full level of oil is a little over 5 1/2 inches below the crank centerline.

this is interesting!

did you also measure how far below center line the counter weights (or windage tray) would be?

for the adaiavin 9 qt pan shown, that would only have 2 1/2 inches of oil! that would show full with only 5 1/2 qts.

one really needs to know how close to the crank the oil level can be. I would THINK that desired level would also depend on how the engine is used since the "level" will squew based upon accelerations .

JFB's post brings to mind another point; are you guys checking oil with the engine running or off?

In running engine there's a lot of oil distributed throughout the engine, how much depends on a number of factors like drain back rate, hydraulic lifters etc.

Julian

quote:

Originally posted by Joules:
JFB's post brings to mind another point; are you guys checking oil with the engine running or off?

Julian

Off. Running it would drop two inches on the dipstick.

quote:

I will say in my own defense though that I am one of the few that I know of that HAS, as in previously, ancient history, spun in their own oil.

Does spinning in their own coolant count? I have done that! Also cost me $200 in kitty litter to cleanup the coolant left on the track. They don't like it when you leave a trail back to the pits. They just follow the line to see who has to pay!!!

quote:

Originally posted by ZR1 Pantera:

quote:

I will say in my own defense though that I am one of the few that I know of that HAS, as in previously, ancient history, spun in their own oil.

Does spinning in their own coolant count? I have done that! Also cost me $200 in kitty litter to cleanup the coolant left on the track. They don't like it when you leave a trail back to the pits. They just follow the line to see who has to pay!!!

[/QUOTE]
for the adaiavin 9 qt pan shown, that would only have 2 1/2 inches of oil! that would show full with only 5 1/2 qts.
QUOTE]

Yes about 5.5 qt would most likely put me right at the full level mark on the stick. But that sure seems like a small amount in such a huge pan just visually looking at it compared to a stock pan. Never knew an oil change could be so complex.

quote:

Originally posted by DOES 200:...Never knew an oil change could be so complex.

ME NEITHER! I have googled and cannot find anywhere the level of oil in the sump is given as a distance from the crank.

1. If it is above the windage tray is bad (foaming)
2. if it is JUST below the tray, that is ok for level road, but accel or braking and one end of the pan will have oil above (bad)
3. just don't know the "Goldie Loks" level! to me it appears it would vary with the engine use.

the dipstick marked 5 1/2" and thus only needs 5.5 quarts to indicate full with a 9 qt pan...just think it would only be 3qts (or less) with a stock pan.

I for one am still unsure where the oil level should be. I guess this is one of those super secret bits of info.

Even dry sump systems have their limitations. In most cases though in order to make them run dry from G-forces likely the driver would die from excessive force, or at least black out momentarily so they would be unconscious when the car crashed.

The point of the wet sump performance pans like the AVIAID is to keep enough oil near the pickup to not run dry.

That is done by oil control devices and increasing the reservoir available.

That is a full competition pan with a history of being the best wet sump available going back 40 years. You do not need to over fill it.

Worry about other issues.

If you drive on public streets in a manor in which you have overcome these design considerations then I would say that in my perspective for public safety your driving privileges should be restricted?

YOU ANIMAL!

Hi

Reading this thread is of interest to me as my stock cleveland block with 10 qrt oil pan over reads. I have filled it with approx 8 ltrs (8 qrts) yet it still over reads.

Following the info in this thread I went out and measured my dipstick, its 38 5/8", where there different length dipsticks supplied, if so why?

If I modify my dipstick to 38" by shortening at the top end as suggested this should give me the correct level reading but is this the right thing to do.

cheers

quote:

Originally posted by Horace Cope:
Hi

Reading this thread is of interest to me as my stock cleveland block with 10 qrt oil pan over reads. I have filled it with approx 8 ltrs (8 qrts) yet it still over reads.

Following the info in this thread I went out and measured my dipstick, its 38 5/8", where there different length dipsticks supplied, if so why?

If I modify my dipstick to 38" by shortening at the top end as suggested this should give me the correct level reading but is this the right thing to do.

cheers

It would put 5/8" more in the pan. What that measures out to in specific quantity is unknown to me.

PROBABLY the people to ask about the importance of this is AVIAID themselves? Let them tell you how important that is. Our discussion here is just speculation on supposition.

However if you think about it, they used the dipstick level as the determination, i.e., they left that up to Ford.

In theory, they are the ones with best data available.

Horace, there have been several problems with the 'simple' steel Pantera dipstick & pan over the years. The stock 351-C dipstick was originally quite short- having been meant for a front-engine Fairlane or Galaxie. So as-installed in a Pantera, one had to open the rear trunk, remove the engine screen, grope around down in front of the (hot?) engine for the invisible stick, or with an assistant, remove the bulkhead upholstery & engine access cover and finally pull the stick out for a reading. Returning the stick to the invisible guide tube in the block was even more fun, even with help.

So Ford found owners were not checking oil and engine returns for running with no or low oil were climbing by early '72, Ford modified the OEM stick for Panteras by cutting it in two and brazing a section of spring wire in the length. Then they made a new top section guide tube that bolted on to one of the rocker cover bolts. A TSB (Bulletin 1 Article 4, May 1972) was issued to dealers describing the mod.

The modded-stock Pantera dipstick was done in bulk by an unknown contractor (cheaply & in a hurry), and some were done to the wrong length, then put in Ford boxes for sale. Enough were done wrong to warrant a second TSB (Bulletin 5 Article 34, March 1973) warning Pantera dealers of the problems and giving an illustration of an exact length and how & where to measure it (38" stop-thimble-to-tip, NOT the overall length from outside the looped handle to tip).

In addition, some possibly poorly-done braze-joints cracked over the years and owners who noticed it repaired them to the wrong length- usually too short. I heard of one stick in the S.F Bay Area that was so short, it overfilled the crankcase in a rebuilt motor by 6 qts in a STOCK pan! Oil came out of every seal & gasket in the poor motor while running.... Welding the stick also didn't work because the hard spring steel cracks from weld-heat stress.

Finally, a few owners on both sides of the Atlantic, thinking "this is an Italian-made car, the oil volume must be in liters", used the correct dipstick to add 5 LITERS of oil. This only overfilled the crankcases by 1/4 qt or so (1 liter = 1.056 qt)- not enough to cause damage.

Mike Cook, a Bonneville racer that once worked for Gary Hall, found by using plexiglas rocker covers that at high rpms, 3 of the 5 available quarts of oil in a stock pan were being pumped up into the rocker covers and because the oil drainback passages in stock heads were small & tended to plug up, that left only 2 qts to fill the block oil passages & filter, at a time when the engine was under max load stress. Again, bearing starvation and damaged engines resulted. So running at least 8 qts of oil in a fully baffled pan (for cornering control) is simply good insurance.

quote:

Originally posted by Bosswrench:....So running at least 8 qts of oil in a fully baffled pan (for cornering control) is simply good insurance.

Is that a "stock (5 qt)" pan?

would you have the diminsions of the pan?

sort of a Catch 22...over fill the pan so the pickup will stay covered during cornoring, braking and accelerating, but then the oil level will slosh into the crank, giving frothy oil and loss of pressure

I've been an owner for a while ; so, I'll add my dime. I've tested the Aviad pan that I own many times. Out of the engine and sitting on a flat surface, I could put 10 quarts in my pan before it broached the windage tray which measures 4.25" above the pan floor. There are 4" between the windage tray and the bolt flange. My notes also show 6 qts to the baffle. (I hypothesize that was to the top of the baffles). I run 12 quarts due to having an oil filter, oil cooler and an Accusump. Even so, I profess that anyone with an Aviad pan can safely run 10 quarts. With the engine operating, there are probably two quarts circulating - at least.

After draining the oil, I add ten quarts and mark my dip stick with the edge of a file at that level.

Not even sure what 10 qt pan I have, but the thing looks huge. I think I recall someone saying it was a special Hall job, car built by Fat Jack. I will have to dig out my records and see if there is info, but I know in prior oil changes 9 qt has always been used. I suppose I will stay with my 9 qt even though it shows so high on the stick. The car has run excellent for years with that level & starts freely with no lag like it is drowning in oil. If I ever have to take the pan off, I suppose I will know more.

Red 5S Oil Pan by JanDaMan, on Flickr
Red 5S Oil Pan by JanDaMan, on Flickr

Well looking at her, those look more like a pair of 12 quarts to me. They gotta' slosh around plenty in the turns?

Lots of dimples in the bottom I noticed.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Well looking at her, those look more like a pair of 12 quarts to me. They gotta' slosh around plenty in the turns?

Lots of dimples in the bottom I noticed.

Yeah dimply pimply teenager pan. Its the same pan in my black 5S with Fontana engine and records on that build shows 10Qt. But it does appear pretty big maybe 12, and even so I still get that big over fill shown on the stick with 9 qt WTF. Maybe an extra quart of martini in me will fix it.