another view. still carries more luggage than most Porsche?
I kind of like the look? Kinda like the "Hulk" getting ready to burst out?
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asbestos?
Finally got a spacer made, much better then the old big square block..
Now I need to polish the headers, any tips on what to use? I've been using never dull, I know they make ceramic glow but nobody will ship it to me!
Now I need to polish the headers, any tips on what to use? I've been using never dull, I know they make ceramic glow but nobody will ship it to me!
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it would be interesting if you could record open versus seperated plate.
will you be using gaskets?
will you be using gaskets?
Yup I'll have to make my own (gaskets).
I'll record a sound clip but it'll be a while
Before she's back together.
I'll record a sound clip but it'll be a while
Before she's back together.
Good morning guys:
I have my head spinning with all this info, I love the looks of the 180 headers, very much like in BLKPNTR's car but I am a bit confused; the junction of the headers in the back where the 4 pipes meet, is that supposed to separate the headers independently to each muffler or does it mix the exhaust of some of the pipes by rerouting them? Or is this a total block so that each header is independent to a muffler? If I buy a Pantera I want to do this once and not be doing too much trial and error. Please clarify for me (forgive the lack of knowledge on this) This reminds me of the X pipe issue to balance out the exhaust...
Tks
Lou
I have my head spinning with all this info, I love the looks of the 180 headers, very much like in BLKPNTR's car but I am a bit confused; the junction of the headers in the back where the 4 pipes meet, is that supposed to separate the headers independently to each muffler or does it mix the exhaust of some of the pipes by rerouting them? Or is this a total block so that each header is independent to a muffler? If I buy a Pantera I want to do this once and not be doing too much trial and error. Please clarify for me (forgive the lack of knowledge on this) This reminds me of the X pipe issue to balance out the exhaust...
Tks
Lou
quote:Originally posted by JFB #05177:
it would be interesting if you could record open versus seperated plate.
will you be using gaskets?
It just depends on who built the headers on how the crossover design is made.
The set I have I bought from Hall (who still has them) bolt together in the middle like ACE's do. They were built for Hall by "Stan" @ Ford Power Parts who still builds Ford specialty headers. He is in Washington I believe?
That design breaks them into two banks that attach in the center with that flange. It makes it easier to "kick" them down and easier to assemble.
Some have made them in one complete set and getting them on the car or off in one piece is challenging.
The one piece tend to warp with the heat and some have not been able to get them back on the car without a lot of additional effort.
They originally were built for a 9.2" engine deck height which is the height of the stock 351 cleveland block.
Many have switched to other engine blocks, most notably the 351 W (Windsor) block. The W block is a 9.5" high block.
What happens then with a taller block is the headers will no longer meet in the middle and you need to build a spacer to make up for the difference, which is what ACE did.
Look at the spacer. The tubes are independent.
I don't know if those are going to clear the decklid though. They were built for the shorter block and they are very close to the decklid as is. With a taller block they may not clear it?
In a 180 design header in a V8, every other tube crosses over according to the firing order.
This gives the effect on the exhausts of a 180 degree crankshaft rather than the 90 degree that is in the car.
It changes the sound of the exhaust for one thing but it was originally designed for the Ford GT40's and was said in the day to give them about 100hp advantage over the 289 Cobras running conventional header designs. Both were running the same engine with 4 Weber 48 IDA's in international racing.
Detomaso used the GT40 idea on the Group 4 factory race Panteras.
They definitely top out about 6,800 rpm which works fine in a Pantera because of the ZF gearing but headers always were "tuneable" to a certain rpm range, ie., change the diameter and length, and the effect has always been a source of debate.
The set I have I bought from Hall (who still has them) bolt together in the middle like ACE's do. They were built for Hall by "Stan" @ Ford Power Parts who still builds Ford specialty headers. He is in Washington I believe?
That design breaks them into two banks that attach in the center with that flange. It makes it easier to "kick" them down and easier to assemble.
Some have made them in one complete set and getting them on the car or off in one piece is challenging.
The one piece tend to warp with the heat and some have not been able to get them back on the car without a lot of additional effort.
They originally were built for a 9.2" engine deck height which is the height of the stock 351 cleveland block.
Many have switched to other engine blocks, most notably the 351 W (Windsor) block. The W block is a 9.5" high block.
What happens then with a taller block is the headers will no longer meet in the middle and you need to build a spacer to make up for the difference, which is what ACE did.
Look at the spacer. The tubes are independent.
I don't know if those are going to clear the decklid though. They were built for the shorter block and they are very close to the decklid as is. With a taller block they may not clear it?
In a 180 design header in a V8, every other tube crosses over according to the firing order.
This gives the effect on the exhausts of a 180 degree crankshaft rather than the 90 degree that is in the car.
It changes the sound of the exhaust for one thing but it was originally designed for the Ford GT40's and was said in the day to give them about 100hp advantage over the 289 Cobras running conventional header designs. Both were running the same engine with 4 Weber 48 IDA's in international racing.
Detomaso used the GT40 idea on the Group 4 factory race Panteras.
They definitely top out about 6,800 rpm which works fine in a Pantera because of the ZF gearing but headers always were "tuneable" to a certain rpm range, ie., change the diameter and length, and the effect has always been a source of debate.
Hummm so basically if there is a center junction or block is not a Cleveland engine but a Windsor. I understand now the 180 advantage very well explained by you! Now that said, if I buy a Pantera without the 180 headers installed and I want to convert to 180 provided that it is a Cleveland engine, who would be my best source (s) for headers and muffler set up (center outlet)? The heat shield can be attached to the underside of the decklid or does it has to be attached on top of the mufflers/headers?
Sorry for all these questions but it is always better to measure twice and cut once if you will.
Thanks Doug
regards
Lou
Sorry for all these questions but it is always better to measure twice and cut once if you will.
Thanks Doug
regards
Lou
quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
It just depends on who built the headers on how the crossover design is made.
The set I have I bought from Hall (who still has them) bolt together in the middle like ACE's do. They were build for Hall by Ford Power Parts who still builds Ford specialty headers. He is in Washington I believe?
That design breaks them into two banks that attach in the center with that flange. It makes it easier to "kick" them down and easier to assemble.
Some have made them in one complete set and getting them on the car or off in one piece is challenging.
The one piece tend to warp with the heat and some have not been able to get them back on the car without a lot of additional effort.
They originally were built for a 9.2" engine deck height which is the height of the stock 351 cleveland block.
Many have switched to other engine blocks, most notably the 351 W (Windsor) block. The W block is a 9.5" high block.
What happens then with a taller block is the headers will no longer meet in the middle and you need to build a spacer to make up for the difference, which is what ACE did.
Look at the spacer. The tubes are independent.
I don't know if those are going to clear the decklid though. They were built for the shorter block and they are very close to the decklid as is. With a taller block they may not clear it?
In a 180 design header in a V8, every other tube crosses over according to the firing order.
This gives the effect on the exhausts of a 180 degree crankshaft rather than the 90 degree that is in the car.
It changes the sound of the exhaust for one thing but it was originally designed for the Ford GT40's and was said in the day to give them about 100hp advantage over the 289 Cobras running conventional header designs. Both were running the same engine with 4 Weber 48 IDA's in international racing.
Detomaso used the GT40 idea on the Group 4 factory race Panteras.
They definitely top out about 6,800 rpm which works fine in a Pantera because of the ZF gearing but headers always were "tuneable" to a certain rpm range, ie., tune diameter and length, and the effect has always been a source of debate.
Well I find the heat shields need to be in more than just one place.
I have a heat shield between the headers and the back of the engine, on the sides shielding the deck lid struts, and under the decklid on the decklid spider.
It is pretty easy to do in either aluminum sheet or stainless. I chose stainless.
As far as where to get the headers, that's your choice.
Hall still has them for $800. Others have paid thousands to have them made on the car.
Just posting this here you are going to recieve offers of "call me". I don't build them so it isn't me.
You also will have two choices of exit. One is in the original exhaust "notch" in the back of the car, the other is through the location of the a/c condenser, which would need to be removed and relocated.
Get the car first, then worry about that later? Maybe you can find a car with them on it already? Lots of people liked the idea and switched their cars over.
Mad Dogs Pantera with Hall's headers. He turned the collectors in so the exhausts were centered through the condenser opening, and they are ceramic powder coated.
Polished stainless sheet metal heat shield attaches to the inner deck lid spider.
I believe those are also the Mickey Thompson LT 26-12-15 tires in the back if anyone is looking.
I have a heat shield between the headers and the back of the engine, on the sides shielding the deck lid struts, and under the decklid on the decklid spider.
It is pretty easy to do in either aluminum sheet or stainless. I chose stainless.
As far as where to get the headers, that's your choice.
Hall still has them for $800. Others have paid thousands to have them made on the car.
Just posting this here you are going to recieve offers of "call me". I don't build them so it isn't me.
You also will have two choices of exit. One is in the original exhaust "notch" in the back of the car, the other is through the location of the a/c condenser, which would need to be removed and relocated.
Get the car first, then worry about that later? Maybe you can find a car with them on it already? Lots of people liked the idea and switched their cars over.
Mad Dogs Pantera with Hall's headers. He turned the collectors in so the exhausts were centered through the condenser opening, and they are ceramic powder coated.
Polished stainless sheet metal heat shield attaches to the inner deck lid spider.
I believe those are also the Mickey Thompson LT 26-12-15 tires in the back if anyone is looking.
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I have a set of Ron's on my car. You will NOT be disappointed!
To r mccall,
Beautiful, mine were made on the car by Dan Lemon, after all was said and done, into them for 4M, yours look just as stunning!great job.
Beautiful, mine were made on the car by Dan Lemon, after all was said and done, into them for 4M, yours look just as stunning!great job.
Well after an hour and a half I got one side looking nice, still have more to do, but mothers polish seems to do the trick..
I even saw it recommended on a manufactures web site..
Here you can see the difference.
I even saw it recommended on a manufactures web site..
Here you can see the difference.
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quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
It just depends on who built the headers on how the crossover design is made.
The set I have I bought from Hall (who still has them) bolt together in the middle like ACE's do. They were built for Hall by "Stan" @ Ford Power Parts who still builds Ford specialty headers. He is in Washington I believe?
That design breaks them into two banks that attach in the center with that flange. It makes it easier to "kick" them down and easier to assemble.
Some have made them in one complete set and getting them on the car or off in one piece is challenging.
The one piece tend to warp with the heat and some have not been able to get them back on the car without a lot of additional effort.
They originally were built for a 9.2" engine deck height which is the height of the stock 351 cleveland block.
Many have switched to other engine blocks, most notably the 351 W (Windsor) block. The W block is a 9.5" high block.
What happens then with a taller block is the headers will no longer meet in the middle and you need to build a spacer to make up for the difference, which is what ACE did.
Look at the spacer. The tubes are independent.
I don't know if those are going to clear the decklid though. They were built for the shorter block and they are very close to the decklid as is. With a taller block they may not clear it?
In a 180 design header in a V8, every other tube crosses over according to the firing order.
This gives the effect on the exhausts of a 180 degree crankshaft rather than the 90 degree that is in the car.
It changes the sound of the exhaust for one thing but it was originally designed for the Ford GT40's and was said in the day to give them about 100hp advantage over the 289 Cobras running conventional header designs. Both were running the same engine with 4 Weber 48 IDA's in international racing.
Detomaso used the GT40 idea on the Group 4 factory race Panteras.
They definitely top out about 6,800 rpm which works fine in a Pantera because of the ZF gearing but headers always were "tuneable" to a certain rpm range, ie., change the diameter and length, and the effect has always been a source of debate.
No need for heat shield if headers are ceramic coated inside and out. Ive had mine for years without heat damage of any kind.
Will
The cross over is: the following,
passenger side collector. #1,7,6,4
driver side is 5,8,3,2
firing order is 13726548
This causes a clockwise rotation of exhaust pulses.
passenger side collector. #1,7,6,4
driver side is 5,8,3,2
firing order is 13726548
This causes a clockwise rotation of exhaust pulses.
quote:Originally posted by 4NHOTROD:
No need for heat shield if headers are ceramic coated inside and out. Ive had mine for years without heat damage of any kind.
Will
Will, you and I likely have differently built headers?
Mine are within an inch of the deck at the closest point.
Mine are also ceramic coated internally and externally as well.
Not only am I keeping the heat away from the decklid but also the Webers and the deck struts.
If you look at the picture of Mad Dog's and Ron's the struts have either been eliminated or relocated.
How one wants to deal with these issues is as much of an aesthetic issue as a functional one.
I view my car as more of a Group 3 car and others view theirs as a competitor to a 2015 Lamborghini?
I live in the past. I see no point in attempting to make a 42 year old Italian sports car into a new one although honestly the Pantera still holds it's own in that regards.
I still find the Eagles relevant even into their 70s and love the fact that they even can use electricity to their own advantage?
They mostly remember the lyrics too?
quote:Originally posted by Ace:
Well after an hour and a half I got one side looking nice, still have more to do, but mothers polish seems to do the trick..
I even saw it recommended on a manufactures web site..
Here you can see the difference.
Ace, they will not stay polished looking after you run them. They will wind up looking like "mill polished" stainless which for me is fine.
As long as they don't get rusty and cruddy looking I'm ok with the low luster look.
This set is staying this way whereas two other sets from my GT350, one Hooker, one JBA with factory coatings dulled up immediately after firing the engine up for the first time.
If you read those manufacturers warranties they specifically will not guaranty that issue will not happen.
Maybe the difference between them and my Pantera headers is simply the price of the coatings.
The pre-coated ones work out to a $150 difference and the Pantera headers cost $350 to do in Connecticut vs. Mexico in the case of the other two?
So far I have about $1,100 into mine. I have no complaints. I'm WAY ahead of the game.
Panteradoug,
Ya I've read that too, but mine were put on dirty and allowed
To have oil sprayed on them from a bad valve cover gasket.
Luckily the car was never more then idled so it's coming off
Without too much elbow grease.
Thanks for the tips though.
Joe.
Ya I've read that too, but mine were put on dirty and allowed
To have oil sprayed on them from a bad valve cover gasket.
Luckily the car was never more then idled so it's coming off
Without too much elbow grease.
Thanks for the tips though.
Joe.
That didn't show in the pictures.
The polish is going to leave a residue on the finish that when running the engine is going to react to being heated and cooked.
That reaction is unpredictable. It could turn black from the heat?
The polish is going to leave a residue on the finish that when running the engine is going to react to being heated and cooked.
That reaction is unpredictable. It could turn black from the heat?
I read up on some on how to care for ceramic coatings, it did
Mention that after polishing to wash with a cleaner and water
Like simple green.
It also said to make sure to keep them dry and coat them with
Wd40 while in storage. But to wash the wd off in the same way.
Seems like a lot of work.
I'm just gonna polish these clean, wash and dry them and that'll
Be it. I'm fine with the duller look once the heat up.
You can't see in the pictures but the inner area closer to the
Valve cover was sprayed with oil that was partially baked on.
Mention that after polishing to wash with a cleaner and water
Like simple green.
It also said to make sure to keep them dry and coat them with
Wd40 while in storage. But to wash the wd off in the same way.
Seems like a lot of work.
I'm just gonna polish these clean, wash and dry them and that'll
Be it. I'm fine with the duller look once the heat up.
You can't see in the pictures but the inner area closer to the
Valve cover was sprayed with oil that was partially baked on.
SOME header manufacturers are saying the coating SHOULD dull with use, just not flake off.
I am discussing this with JBA at the moment.
I'm ok with that but the Hookers had rust "towers" showing through the coating where it had dulled.
My Pantera headers needed to be "acid dipped" when I sent them in. So far after 3 years, not signs of any rust or blistering and the things still retain a semi-shine?
I still learning on this stuff.
I am discussing this with JBA at the moment.
I'm ok with that but the Hookers had rust "towers" showing through the coating where it had dulled.
My Pantera headers needed to be "acid dipped" when I sent them in. So far after 3 years, not signs of any rust or blistering and the things still retain a semi-shine?
I still learning on this stuff.
Ace,
Did you polish them by hand?
Did you polish them by hand?
Yup by hand seemed like I'd never
Be done, but the came out nice.
Be done, but the came out nice.
Ace :
which Mothers product did you used?
tks
Lou
which Mothers product did you used?
tks
Lou
quote:Originally posted by Ace:
Yup by hand seemed like I'd never
Be done, but the came out nice.
Good old mothers mag and aluminum polish. Go easy do t wanna
Cut through the coating.
Here's the best article I found on upkeep.
http://www.straightlineperform...are-and-maintenance/
Cut through the coating.
Here's the best article I found on upkeep.
http://www.straightlineperform...are-and-maintenance/
Good to know... thanks for posting Ace!
Ace:
Tks buddy I will use it with Cobra headers and sidepipes.
Cheers
Lou
Tks buddy I will use it with Cobra headers and sidepipes.
Cheers
Lou
quote:Originally posted by Ace:
Good old mothers mag and aluminum polish. Go easy do t wanna
Cut through the coating.
Here's the best article I found on upkeep.
http://www.straightlineperform...are-and-maintenance/
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quote:Basque1
Beautiful Basque1
Beautiful car Lou! Now I see why you want a black Pantera 
Tks guys here is a better and more complete look at it.
quote:Originally posted by Tim S:
Beautiful car Lou! Now I see why you want a black Pantera
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The coating seems to have some elasticity to it but as near as I can figure it is about 1/10 of a millimeter thick?
Polishing through it could be a reality.
Some of these headers recently are 300 series stainless steel tubes but only recently. That would help with corrosion issues but not entirely cure it. Only time will tell?
In the past stainless was tough to put a smooth tight radius on without crinkling the tube. It simply does not strech or compress easily.
Apparently there is either a slightly different stainless alloy being used or a new and better bending method?
The ceramic coating generally doesn't flake off but if the headers weren't acid dipped to clean the residue you could have long term adherence problems with the coating.
Combine that with the polish dulling as soon as you heat them up, why risk that?
Polishing through it could be a reality.
Some of these headers recently are 300 series stainless steel tubes but only recently. That would help with corrosion issues but not entirely cure it. Only time will tell?
In the past stainless was tough to put a smooth tight radius on without crinkling the tube. It simply does not strech or compress easily.
Apparently there is either a slightly different stainless alloy being used or a new and better bending method?
The ceramic coating generally doesn't flake off but if the headers weren't acid dipped to clean the residue you could have long term adherence problems with the coating.
Combine that with the polish dulling as soon as you heat them up, why risk that?