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70 replies

180 degree header question.

A aceMember
My car came with an older set of Hall 180 degree headers,
The one with the spacer block between the banks at the rear
Of the engine.
My question is should that block be open to all 4 header tubes? Or
Have 4 holes to keep the tubes separate?
The original owner could not find the spacer plate so he had one made
That is just open in the middle.

And lastly do the glass packs require a support at the rear of
The trans? They just hang there and if you grab hold you can
Move them without to much difficulty.
Hall said they haven't made those headers in aprox 10
Years and didn't know if the block should be open and
That they didn't think the mufflers required any support.
But I though I'd ask.
Thanks Joe.
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hustlerhustlerMember
I've got the exact same headers, although I have not trial fitted them yet. I bought them off someone here who had pulled them from a pantera stash of parts. They are the SVO/Yates exhaust port for a cleveland (9.2 deck). You will need to do a little more digging on your motor to find out if its a windsor 9.2 or aftermarket 9.5 deck block or a cleveland block with yates heads? May explain the need for the block spacer. The spacer could be the result of a 9.5 deck block and yes the open spacer does negate the bundle of snake separated pulses. My understanding is the headers were commissioned and sold by Hall and built by Stan's Headers here in WA State for Hall.

If you don't mind can you produce a video of what your car sounds like and dump it on youtube, I'm interested to get an idea of what I would get with this setup. I'll produce some mock up pictures in a few days. It shouldn't be difficult to draw a template with the 4 holes and have it CNC'd correctly to replace the current spacer. I'll let you know if it lines up correctly on my cleveland block with c302 heads without the spacer.
panterrorpanterrorMy 74 GTS
Though true for all exhausts, especially on 180s, it is remarkable how placement and even the direction the tail pipes point affect the sound. Tail pipes that point down toward the ground make a noticeable difference in audible noise level (softens) and placing the tail pipes apart in the two OE muffler pockets produces a different sound than a side by side arrangement exiting through the condenser grill. Of course affects are more pronounced standing behind the car or to an observer as you’re passing by and less noticeable for the driver from the cockpit……on the pipes at full song.

IMO, the center exit is definitely the best sound, more closely replicating a flat plane crank V8, but I still have a very difficult time looking at the back of my Pantera without OE appearing Ansa cans tucked in the original positions.

Best,
K
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by Ace:
https://youtu.be/fEU6F4y06sE

Here's a vid I took a while back when I was looking at buying the car.

It sat for a month or 2 without being started.
And with no choke it pops when cold.

As you can see it's the same headers you have.
Mine came with glass packs as well as straight pipes.


That is pretty much how they sound at idle from behind.

In the cabin you get an entirely different effect. The noise is behind you and I get little or no vibration from the exhausts.

Of course the effect of the induction into the Weber stacks is noticeable though. They are closer to your ears.


At full throttle the Webers change the effect of the sound of the exhaust because of the power pulses of an IR manifold.
jfb05177jfb05177Member
quote:
Originally posted by Ace:
...spacer block between the banks at the rear Of the engine.
...should that block be open to all 4 header tubes? Or
Have 4 holes to keep the tubes separate?
...had one made That is just open in the middle....


I would concur with Husker in that the tubes should have seperration.

However, a more pressing reason for a new spacer would be to trim the sharp outer corners so it would look more approiate.

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A aceMember
I agree about the spacer plate, as for the exhaust tip placement, I love the look of the side exit.
But I might have to reconsider the center exit, the condenser was already moved to the front.
But the previous owner cut holes in the rear for the exhaust to exit, and those will remain if I move the tips.

I also have to consider fabbing a support for the mufflers, and it will be easier
With them exiting the rear. Oh what to do what to do. Lol
panteradougpanteradougMember
I still have the mufflers in storage. I changed them out to Thrush polished stainless mufflers because I wanted a finished tip showing in the back.

I like the side exit also.

I had the headers powder coated and they still look new.

The GT40's just ran a "screen door" spring over the mufflers and bolted that to the chassis.

The spring gives flexability, doesn't transmit vibration and reduces the muffler vibrations.

Seems to work well enough.

My son fell on the ground laughing at them. Asked, "where did you come up with that idea from, Rube Goldberg?"

Then I showed him the pictures of the '40s. He stopped laughing. Out loud anyway.

I don't think Ferrari still laughs about them? They are in the back of the car, and he could get a really good look at them there? Wink

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panterachrispanterachrisMember
The original 180's ( bundle of snakes )as every one knows was on the famous G.T. 40. The routing of the exhaust was close together and straight out the back, this system created a large power range. The distinct sound is created by changing the exhaust pulse from 180 degrees to 90 degrees, this sound is similar to many race cars that incorporate a flat crankshaft where the crank journals are 90 degrees apart ( you can lay the crank on a table and it is on one flat plane), most notable is the Ferrari. The new Shelby mustang has a flat crank and many other unique features for it is a purpose built track car. A heat shield is recommended as the temperatures at the header tubes ( prior to collectors ) can reach 600+ degrees.

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panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by Ace:
Love it, me car has a ways to go before it looks as clean as yours!
Do you think the heat shield is really required? I've herd yes and no, my car did not come with one, and hasn't been driven very far since the 180's were installed..


Well, it does get toasty in there. The powder coating on the headers supposedly reduces the surface temperature of the headers 180 degrees.

The guys that did mine made a big deal out of coating both the inside and outside of the pipes.

I never thought to measure the temp in a before and after thing?

The place on the decklid that you need to shield the most is the portion that is right over the bellhouse. That is where all the pipes cross over and some are only 3/4" from the decklids inner spider.

I also have the Webers shielded and the decklid struts as well.

If you follow the triangular shape of the spider there, that is sufficient. Kind of looks "artsy" there too.

I can tell you that I have burned myself on those pipes more than a few times simply because they never LOOK hot.
bosswrenchbosswrenchMember
Said this before and may be worth repeating: the biggest drawback to 180s is, I personally tend to stay in the throttle a little too long just for the sheer sound! This is hard on the brakes.... And on one Pantera, the first time we ran 180s, the deck lid developed two spots 12" in OD of badly charred enamel after a 50 mile drive to the event at highway-legal speeds. Yes- the decklid WILL get overheated without a shield!
4nhotrod4nhotrodHe who dies with the most toys is dead
quote:
Originally posted by Bosswrench:
Said this before and may be worth repeating: the biggest drawback to 180s is, I personally tend to stay in the throttle a little too long just for the sheer sound! This is hard on the brakes.... And on one Pantera, the first time we ran 180s, the deck lid developed two spots 12" in OD of badly charred enamel after a 50 mile drive to the event at highway-legal speeds. Yes- the decklid WILL get overheated without a shield!

If they're not ceramic coated.
panteradougpanteradougMember
[/QUOTE]
If they're not ceramic coated.[/QUOTE]

The coating just reduces the heat. It doesn't eliminate it or reduce it enough.

It isn't just the paint you need to worry about melting off. The deck lid will warp with the heat if you don't shield it and you won't be able to fix that.

Fiberglass won't be a better choice either. It will warp worse than the steel.

Put a piece of stainless 20 gauge on the spider. It will act as a "sacrificial anode".
It will be easier than aluminum sheet to keep clean. Just wipe it down with Windex. Same with the powder coated headers.

Incidentally, the flat black, grey and titanium powder coats will water spot. The "chrome" powder coat doesn't and when they are done, will look like mill polished stainless.
bosswrenchbosswrenchMember
Use a shield- aluminum or ss. A 180F temp reduction with Jet-Hot coating or other similar- isn't enough if you actually intend to drive the car. The exhaust gasses are around 600F coming out the mufflers & even hotter closer to the engine. One GT-5 clone ran a Silver State event (92 miles of higher speeds over about 45 minutes of running), and at his speed with early tilted-up muffler tips, the Pantera's airflow swirl in back blew the exhaust back against the rear of the car. Both taillight lenses visibly MELTED!

I once built a garage exhaust collector for winter tuning inside, using my stock GTS mufflers with straight-out tips. 50:50 solder holding the log collector together melted & dripped off at 1000 rpm idle within a few minutes. I had to redo it using braze. High-temp 50:50 solder melts & runs off at 420F.
panteradougpanteradougMember
I have to presume that there was a reason the Gp4 cars had the exhaust run out the corners vs. straight back until proven otherwise? I doubt it was arbitrary? They definitely ran a shied. An aluminum sheet the entire length.

That exhaust actually needs to be tuned.
Using different size pipes and mufflers effect the upper rpm range and the low end torque curves some.

The GT40 is a different car. It has similarities but the Pantera has unique attributes and unique requirements.

You might say that you can see the family DNA relationship but they are by no means identical twins.

Painting stripes on a Mule doesn't make him a Zebra.


The 69 Shelby Mustangs have a unique exhaust feature. They have a manifold that transfers the exhaust to the center of the rear of the car, under the rear bumper.

The gas tank fill is directly above that.

Initially the tank used a vented cap.

There were several cars that caught fire as a result of the location of both.

Shelby Automotive issued a recall notice to change the cap to a non vented cap and make appropriate modifications to the filler neck.

It would seem that the heat from the exhaust on just street driven cars was enough to cause an issue?

Just thought this was an interesting aside to BW's comment on the centered exhaust location? Smiler
Last edited by panteradoug
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by LIV1S:
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
I have to presume that there was a reason the Gp4 cars had the exhaust run out the corners vs. straight back until proven otherwise? I doubt it was arbitrary?

The Grp4 ran with a full-sized spare. It must have been a requirement for the class.


Makes sense. The MkIV's had to carry a spare, I THINK the Mk1's & II's did too?

The straight out exhausts made sense on those cars to economize on mechanical access.

You can extend the pipes out further out of the ducktail turbulence and into the airstream and avoid issues most likely.


How practical 180's are on a true "real world" street car are debatable.

The stock Pantera has got to have one of the best trunk cargo areas of many cars, not just a little tight ass Italian sports car?

In this neck of the woods I could surely get $1,200 a month rent for that space?


Practical isn't the term I'd use for my car and it sucks that I'm loosing the $1,200/month? Razzer
bosswrenchbosswrenchMember
With side-exit 180 exhausts, there's a chance such a car could use (or copy) Hall's half-trunk-tub made for his 180s, especially if you laminated heat-resistent stuff to the front & bottom of the tub. The half-trunk looks like what was stock on the Miura and is a whole lot better than nothing.

FYI, I remembered one more drawback to 180s: there's a definite order in how that tubular jigsaw puzzle goes back together! During a tech session engine swap some years ago on Mike Harper's car so equipped, it took longer to get the pipes bolted back in than it did to swap blocks! Naturely, the pipe remover was not the pipe-installer and we (and Mike) had no instructions as he'd bought the car that way.
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by Bosswrench:
With side-exit 180 exhausts, there's a chance such a car could use (or copy) Hall's half-trunk-tub made for his 180s, especially if you laminated heat-resistent stuff to the front & bottom of the tub. The half-trunk looks like what was stock on the Miura and is a whole lot better than nothing.

FYI, I remembered one more drawback to 180s: there's a definite order in how that tubular jigsaw puzzle goes back together! During a tech session engine swap some years ago on Mike Harper's car so equipped, it took longer to get the pipes bolted back in than it did to swap blocks! Naturely, the pipe remover was not the pipe-installer and we (and Mike) had no instructions as he'd bought the car that way.


A chance? I've got it. It still needs to be lined with anti-heat fabric so I can't carry any ice cream in there but heck I can start a nice pork roast in there and it will be done in an hour or so? Eeker

It's kind of a mess at the moment but if you promise not to look too hard at details I'll post a picture?

Well...do you promise or not?


No problem on getting mine apart or back together with the flange in the middle.

I always said that was the practical part of Stan's (FPP) design?

Forget about it with the individual pipes. Those things warp all over the place.


From the beginning I always considered the headers a "competition" thing and cosmetics were not the most important thing?

The trunk liner is just something to have to shut the critics up? Wink


Actually my Camaro Pro Stock friend was/is still impressed with them but he still is trying to get me to put a BB Chevy in there? Roll Eyes

I think he thinks I made the headers myself? I'm not going to admit I didn't? Let him roast in envy? Big Grin

"Those crazy ass headers" is his comment, not mine?
B basque1Member
Good morning guys:
I have my head spinning with all this info, I love the looks of the 180 headers, very much like in BLKPNTR's car but I am a bit confused; the junction of the headers in the back where the 4 pipes meet, is that supposed to separate the headers independently to each muffler or does it mix the exhaust of some of the pipes by rerouting them? Or is this a total block so that each header is independent to a muffler? If I buy a Pantera I want to do this once and not be doing too much trial and error. Please clarify for me (forgive the lack of knowledge on this) This reminds me of the X pipe issue to balance out the exhaust...
Tks
Lou



quote:
Originally posted by JFB #05177:
it would be interesting if you could record open versus seperated plate.

will you be using gaskets?
panteradougpanteradougMember
It just depends on who built the headers on how the crossover design is made.

The set I have I bought from Hall (who still has them) bolt together in the middle like ACE's do. They were built for Hall by "Stan" @ Ford Power Parts who still builds Ford specialty headers. He is in Washington I believe?

That design breaks them into two banks that attach in the center with that flange. It makes it easier to "kick" them down and easier to assemble.



Some have made them in one complete set and getting them on the car or off in one piece is challenging.

The one piece tend to warp with the heat and some have not been able to get them back on the car without a lot of additional effort.



They originally were built for a 9.2" engine deck height which is the height of the stock 351 cleveland block.

Many have switched to other engine blocks, most notably the 351 W (Windsor) block. The W block is a 9.5" high block.



What happens then with a taller block is the headers will no longer meet in the middle and you need to build a spacer to make up for the difference, which is what ACE did.

Look at the spacer. The tubes are independent.

I don't know if those are going to clear the decklid though. They were built for the shorter block and they are very close to the decklid as is. With a taller block they may not clear it?



In a 180 design header in a V8, every other tube crosses over according to the firing order.

This gives the effect on the exhausts of a 180 degree crankshaft rather than the 90 degree that is in the car.

It changes the sound of the exhaust for one thing but it was originally designed for the Ford GT40's and was said in the day to give them about 100hp advantage over the 289 Cobras running conventional header designs. Both were running the same engine with 4 Weber 48 IDA's in international racing.

Detomaso used the GT40 idea on the Group 4 factory race Panteras.



They definitely top out about 6,800 rpm which works fine in a Pantera because of the ZF gearing but headers always were "tuneable" to a certain rpm range, ie., change the diameter and length, and the effect has always been a source of debate.
B basque1Member
Hummm so basically if there is a center junction or block is not a Cleveland engine but a Windsor. I understand now the 180 advantage very well explained by you! Now that said, if I buy a Pantera without the 180 headers installed and I want to convert to 180 provided that it is a Cleveland engine, who would be my best source (s) for headers and muffler set up (center outlet)? The heat shield can be attached to the underside of the decklid or does it has to be attached on top of the mufflers/headers?
Sorry for all these questions but it is always better to measure twice and cut once if you will.
Thanks Doug
regards
Lou


quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
It just depends on who built the headers on how the crossover design is made.

The set I have I bought from Hall (who still has them) bolt together in the middle like ACE's do. They were build for Hall by Ford Power Parts who still builds Ford specialty headers. He is in Washington I believe?

That design breaks them into two banks that attach in the center with that flange. It makes it easier to "kick" them down and easier to assemble.



Some have made them in one complete set and getting them on the car or off in one piece is challenging.

The one piece tend to warp with the heat and some have not been able to get them back on the car without a lot of additional effort.



They originally were built for a 9.2" engine deck height which is the height of the stock 351 cleveland block.

Many have switched to other engine blocks, most notably the 351 W (Windsor) block. The W block is a 9.5" high block.



What happens then with a taller block is the headers will no longer meet in the middle and you need to build a spacer to make up for the difference, which is what ACE did.

Look at the spacer. The tubes are independent.

I don't know if those are going to clear the decklid though. They were built for the shorter block and they are very close to the decklid as is. With a taller block they may not clear it?



In a 180 design header in a V8, every other tube crosses over according to the firing order.

This gives the effect on the exhausts of a 180 degree crankshaft rather than the 90 degree that is in the car.

It changes the sound of the exhaust for one thing but it was originally designed for the Ford GT40's and was said in the day to give them about 100hp advantage over the 289 Cobras running conventional header designs. Both were running the same engine with 4 Weber 48 IDA's in international racing.

Detomaso used the GT40 idea on the Group 4 factory race Panteras.



They definitely top out about 6,800 rpm which works fine in a Pantera because of the ZF gearing but headers always were "tuneable" to a certain rpm range, ie., tune diameter and length, and the effect has always been a source of debate.
panteradougpanteradougMember
Well I find the heat shields need to be in more than just one place.

I have a heat shield between the headers and the back of the engine, on the sides shielding the deck lid struts, and under the decklid on the decklid spider.

It is pretty easy to do in either aluminum sheet or stainless. I chose stainless.


As far as where to get the headers, that's your choice.

Hall still has them for $800. Others have paid thousands to have them made on the car.


Just posting this here you are going to recieve offers of "call me". I don't build them so it isn't me.

You also will have two choices of exit. One is in the original exhaust "notch" in the back of the car, the other is through the location of the a/c condenser, which would need to be removed and relocated.


Get the car first, then worry about that later? Maybe you can find a car with them on it already? Lots of people liked the idea and switched their cars over.



Mad Dogs Pantera with Hall's headers. He turned the collectors in so the exhausts were centered through the condenser opening, and they are ceramic powder coated.

Polished stainless sheet metal heat shield attaches to the inner deck lid spider.



I believe those are also the Mickey Thompson LT 26-12-15 tires in the back if anyone is looking.

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Last edited by panteradoug
4nhotrod4nhotrodHe who dies with the most toys is dead
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
It just depends on who built the headers on how the crossover design is made.

The set I have I bought from Hall (who still has them) bolt together in the middle like ACE's do. They were built for Hall by "Stan" @ Ford Power Parts who still builds Ford specialty headers. He is in Washington I believe?

That design breaks them into two banks that attach in the center with that flange. It makes it easier to "kick" them down and easier to assemble.



Some have made them in one complete set and getting them on the car or off in one piece is challenging.

The one piece tend to warp with the heat and some have not been able to get them back on the car without a lot of additional effort.



They originally were built for a 9.2" engine deck height which is the height of the stock 351 cleveland block.

Many have switched to other engine blocks, most notably the 351 W (Windsor) block. The W block is a 9.5" high block.



What happens then with a taller block is the headers will no longer meet in the middle and you need to build a spacer to make up for the difference, which is what ACE did.

Look at the spacer. The tubes are independent.

I don't know if those are going to clear the decklid though. They were built for the shorter block and they are very close to the decklid as is. With a taller block they may not clear it?



In a 180 design header in a V8, every other tube crosses over according to the firing order.

This gives the effect on the exhausts of a 180 degree crankshaft rather than the 90 degree that is in the car.

It changes the sound of the exhaust for one thing but it was originally designed for the Ford GT40's and was said in the day to give them about 100hp advantage over the 289 Cobras running conventional header designs. Both were running the same engine with 4 Weber 48 IDA's in international racing.

Detomaso used the GT40 idea on the Group 4 factory race Panteras.



They definitely top out about 6,800 rpm which works fine in a Pantera because of the ZF gearing but headers always were "tuneable" to a certain rpm range, ie., change the diameter and length, and the effect has always been a source of debate.

No need for heat shield if headers are ceramic coated inside and out. Ive had mine for years without heat damage of any kind.
Will
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by 4NHOTROD:
No need for heat shield if headers are ceramic coated inside and out. Ive had mine for years without heat damage of any kind.
Will


Will, you and I likely have differently built headers?
Mine are within an inch of the deck at the closest point.
Mine are also ceramic coated internally and externally as well.

Not only am I keeping the heat away from the decklid but also the Webers and the deck struts.

If you look at the picture of Mad Dog's and Ron's the struts have either been eliminated or relocated.

How one wants to deal with these issues is as much of an aesthetic issue as a functional one.

I view my car as more of a Group 3 car and others view theirs as a competitor to a 2015 Lamborghini?

I live in the past. I see no point in attempting to make a 42 year old Italian sports car into a new one although honestly the Pantera still holds it's own in that regards.

I still find the Eagles relevant even into their 70s and love the fact that they even can use electricity to their own advantage?

They mostly remember the lyrics too?

Cool
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by Ace:
Well after an hour and a half I got one side looking nice, still have more to do, but mothers polish seems to do the trick..
I even saw it recommended on a manufactures web site..
Here you can see the difference.


Ace, they will not stay polished looking after you run them. They will wind up looking like "mill polished" stainless which for me is fine.

As long as they don't get rusty and cruddy looking I'm ok with the low luster look.

This set is staying this way whereas two other sets from my GT350, one Hooker, one JBA with factory coatings dulled up immediately after firing the engine up for the first time.

If you read those manufacturers warranties they specifically will not guaranty that issue will not happen.

Maybe the difference between them and my Pantera headers is simply the price of the coatings.

The pre-coated ones work out to a $150 difference and the Pantera headers cost $350 to do in Connecticut vs. Mexico in the case of the other two?

So far I have about $1,100 into mine. I have no complaints. I'm WAY ahead of the game.
A aceMember
I read up on some on how to care for ceramic coatings, it did
Mention that after polishing to wash with a cleaner and water
Like simple green.
It also said to make sure to keep them dry and coat them with
Wd40 while in storage. But to wash the wd off in the same way.
Seems like a lot of work.

I'm just gonna polish these clean, wash and dry them and that'll
Be it. I'm fine with the duller look once the heat up.
You can't see in the pictures but the inner area closer to the
Valve cover was sprayed with oil that was partially baked on.
panteradougpanteradougMember
SOME header manufacturers are saying the coating SHOULD dull with use, just not flake off.

I am discussing this with JBA at the moment.

I'm ok with that but the Hookers had rust "towers" showing through the coating where it had dulled.

My Pantera headers needed to be "acid dipped" when I sent them in. So far after 3 years, not signs of any rust or blistering and the things still retain a semi-shine?

I still learning on this stuff.
panteradougpanteradougMember
The coating seems to have some elasticity to it but as near as I can figure it is about 1/10 of a millimeter thick?
Polishing through it could be a reality.

Some of these headers recently are 300 series stainless steel tubes but only recently. That would help with corrosion issues but not entirely cure it. Only time will tell?

In the past stainless was tough to put a smooth tight radius on without crinkling the tube. It simply does not strech or compress easily.

Apparently there is either a slightly different stainless alloy being used or a new and better bending method?

The ceramic coating generally doesn't flake off but if the headers weren't acid dipped to clean the residue you could have long term adherence problems with the coating.

Combine that with the polish dulling as soon as you heat them up, why risk that?

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