3.22 ratio anyone done it?

Yes Mark, your understanding of my post is correct. Here Europeans tend to refer to a car with lower ratios as high geared or tall gears, hence my use of the phrase "high"
My main concern is will the 3.22 be too tall for the motor? I am not looking for a higher top speed although its always a good talking point over a beer! I bought the windsor as a crate motor from Ford Racing, a 392 SVO Stroker supposedly rated at 430bhp. However it quickly lost power and developed a bad vibration problem. I have since had it stripped and rebuilt with a different cam, and full balance. Its now as powerful as it was supposed to be and very smooth. I think if I had the 3.77 i would not change, but on a long drive, such as the annual trip to LeMans, it does become a bit tiresome and wasteful given the high torque output of the Ford V8. So my question is to anyone running a 3.22 with a motor of about 450bhp, is the performance adversely affected ?
Steve

Why not just change the 5th gear ratio?

quote:

Originally posted by stephen:
... my question is to anyone running a 3.22 with a motor of about 450bhp, is the performance adversely affected ...

Steve you won't find too many people running that gear, so don't be surprised if you aren't answered.

The answer to your question also depends what you mean by "performance". Acceleration? Yes acceleration will be worse.

Top speed? If your motor develops maximum bhp at 6000 rpm, then you will hit peak bhp at 170 mph in 5th gear with the 3.77 gear set and the standard 5th gear. (The Pantera's handling gets pretty squirly at higher speeds unless you drop the nose of the car very close to the ground AND modify the suspension to increase the caster.)

As you install higher ring and pinion gear ratios (smaller numerically) the rpm spread between each upshift becomes greater, effectively giving you a wider ratio transmission. My fear with the 3.2:1 ring and pinion would be that the ratios would be too far apart, and you would fall off the power band with each up shift.

3.2:1 also sounds a bit boring to me, from the point of view of acceleration.

Jeff makes a good point, the higher 5th gear is a good upgrade for travelers. Regardless of which ring & pinion you choose. RBT offers 0.655:1 and 0.642:1 5th gear sets, stock being 0.70:1.

I calculate your motor currently turns 2810 rpm at 80 mph (130 KPH) in 5th gear, assuming you have a rear tire of 26" diameter.

(1) add the 0.642 5th gear, 2570 rpm at 80 mph, a reduction of 240 rpm.

(2) add the 3.2:1 ring and pinion, 2380 rpm at 80 mph, a reduction of 430 rpm.

(3) add both the 3.2:1 ring and pinion and the 0.642:1 5th gear set, 2180 rpm at 80 mph, a reduction of 630 rpm.

My numbers are rounded off.

On one hand you have fuel economy, and the needs of comfortable long distance traveling. On the other hand you have acceleration performance and around town performance. The decision is what is the best compromise for you.

My advice would be to keep your current ring and pinion and install the 0.642:1 5th gear set, as the best overall compromise between long distance comfort, fuel economy and performance.

For the US members:

On a US Pantera, installing the 0.642:1 5th gear drops the motors speed by 270 rpm in 5th gear at 80 mph (26" diameter rear tire), from 3140 rpm to 2880 rpm. This is good bang for the buck, that's why Lloyd recommends it.

Installing a 4.0:1 ring and pinion and the 0.642:1 5th gear set only drops the motor's speed another 110 rpm, to 2730 rpm. Not much bang for the buck.

Installing a 3.77:1 ring and pinion and the 0.642:1 5th gear set drops the motor's speed to 2570, another 310 rpm lower than just the 5th gear change only. That would be good bang for the buck too, for an open road traveler, if the reduction in acceleration performance is acceptable. The car will wind out in each gear longer as you accelerate, and have more of the feel of an Italian sports car, less like a muscle car.

cowboy from hell

The Pantera Place has an Excel Spreadsheet on this page http://www.panteraplace.com/page32.htm that lets you plan the impact of gear ratios and tire size that I think you will find helpful. My son created it when he was planning the gearing and tire size for his six speed pro-street blown 66 Malibu and I modified it some and added the stock Pantera ratios. There was an article published in PI about the use of the sheet. I’ve thought about adding a horsepower calculation to the sheet but have not got around to that yet. Horsepower was a non issue with the blower engine in the Malibu but it would be neat to have that for the Pantera.

Mike

“The Pantera Place, your first stop on the net and the de Tomaso connection”

I have 550+Hp all ali engine and 3:22 with campag wheels. This car is mind blowingly fast. At Santa Pod the rear wheel just spin like hell. So yes it will work very well if you loose weight and have the power!

Oh and my cam is ground for low end grunt thats why the car pulls like hell its 500+ft lbs at 3000rpm so 3.22 is no problem.

I believe Larry Stock ran the 3.22 for awhile in his car? I think someone else was driving it, doing some stop and go driving on a hill and eventually smoked the clutch. It doesn't sound like a good choice if you get into that situation. Not wanting to give up any acceleration, I still have the 4.22 ring and pinon with the .642 5th gear. I heard a rumor that RBT would eventually produce a .620 fifth gear? You might want to talk to Larry at Pantera Parts Connection about the 3.22 experience.

I know Larry is currently running a 3.77 with the taller 5th, maybe that is testament enough to the 3.22 i.e. if it was any good he'd still be running it!

My friend GTS5W (Geoff) didn't give us enough information. I work on his car sometimes and accompanied him to Santa Pod drag strip last year.
First the engine: It's an all aluminium 427 DART Windsor that dynoed at 550hp. So with the restrictive GTS exhausts, maybe it was making 500 in the car.

The car is a 74GTS with a GT5 body and delta wing. The wheels are 15x10 & 15x13 campys (345,35,15)
With the 3.22 R&P The best time recorded that day was 12.80 at 118mph. This was with 10 year old tyres that where hard so the traction was very poor.
At the time of the run the car weighed in at 2860lbs with half a tank of petrol. Some time later we realised that the throttle linkage was not set up properly and we had not been getting full throttle.
I have also removed the restriction from his GTS exhaust boxes (documented on this forum) so that should improve the performance a bit more.

Also since the run, Geoff has fitted a "real" carbon fibre deck lid. This weighs 16lbs, the steel one weighs 77lbs. This brings the overall weight down to 2799lbs.

I feel that even with a car as light as this, a 3.77 and 6.20 5th (Lloyd does make a 6.20) would be more fun and much quicker. Stephen, your 5S with 400HP and more weight would not suit a 3.22 at all. Go with the 3.77 and 6.20 5th. Roland is right, the taller 5th gears that Lloyd makes are better lubricated than the original ones due to extra oil holes.

Johnny

Johnny did you mean a .62/1 fifth gear?

Hi Doug,

I did mean .620 (I put the point in the wrong place) but I was wrong in saying that it's available. I have just spoken with Lloyd, he tells me he made a couple of .620 prototype gears, one of which I have in my car, but they are not available. .642 is the highest he currently sells.

Johnny

Six speeds will set you free!

Mike

Yes Mike , six speeds would be quite the best option but the price is steep, and my trans is in good health. I had only considered this because the parts were available at a bargain price, if was was running a 4.22 I would have done something about it long ago, but a 4.00 is ok, and with the new motor the car is quick, so I have decided to leave well alone for now, and maybe if the trans ever needs work in the future I will change to a 3.77 and maybe taller 5th.
thanks for the helpful replies guys, its very much appreciated.
Steve

I think that I have some 3.2s and some 3.22s if anyone is interested. There is a difference, 3.2 is 32/10 3.22 is 29/9

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Fleming:
I think that I have some 3.2s and some 3.22s if anyone is interested. There is a difference, 3.2 is 32/10 3.22 is 29/9

I'm affraid to ask, but, how much are they?

Yours for the bargain price of right around $3500.00.

Blaine

Blaine if you are seriously interested PM Fleming. You are going to be 100% surprized.

Im still hmming and hawing over whether I will be keeping the ZF or switching to a Mendeola unit. If I do keep it I will likely get a 3.22 set for Open Road racing. It will be a while before I get to that stage though.

Blaine