located in Welch, Minnesota.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ford-351C-austrailian-4-...temZ8044455204QQrdZ1
George
Original Post
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So what do you think its worth ??? lets take a guess on where it going to go.
Ron
Ron
There's a member of the Cleveland forum that already has his eyes on it. I'll guess $2500.
your friend on the DTBB
your friend on the DTBB
quote:Originally posted by george pence:
There's a member of the Cleveland forum that already has his eyes on it. I'll guess $2500.
your friend on the DTBB
George,
What are the advantages of this rare block over some of the newer aftermarket blocks?
Is this the same block that NASCAR runs today, or a earlier era? Can "much" more reliable horsepower be made with this block, over a stock Pantera Cleveland?
Just wondering?
Your eager student
Mark 6808
ps: really dug the History lesson on the Holmon Moody motors.
quote:Originally posted by Mark#6808:
What are the advantages of this rare block over some of the newer aftermarket blocks?
Is this the same block that NASCAR runs today, or a earlier era? Can "much" more reliable horsepower be made with this block, over a stock Pantera Cleveland?
Just wondering?
Your eager student
Mark 6808
This is not the block NASCAR runs today, this is a bit of history.
It has no durability advantage over the modern race blocks. It's advantage is that it allows the owner to build a 100% Cleveland motor, instead of a Windsor, Clevor or SVO motor.
The production Cleveland block had 2 common failure modes, cracking in the bulkheads above the main bearings and cracking of cylinder walls. This block addressed those problems with thicker bulkheads and cylinder walls that were more uniformly thick (less core shift)
This block is capable of running at higher power levels and higher rpm without failure, it would make a good starting platform for a Maximum effort "cleveland" motor. Such a max effort motor would be more reliable with this block.
Your friend on the DTBB
quote:and higher rpm without failure,
So this block is a true NASCAR block that is often spoken about ? But it doesnt address the oiling issues in a C ? This one states its .030 , how much more can t go ?
Ron
Ron
At $2500 and .30 over, I'd personally be more interested in spending a few more $$ and looking at this new Dart all Al block;
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Dart-Ford-Aluminum-Block...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Julian
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Dart-Ford-Aluminum-Block...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Julian
Yeah but Jueles, that block is .125 over already. You won't be getting anymore out of that one either.
Joules I have a brand new 351W 9.2 SVO G351 block for sale.
Ron
Ron
What would everyone say if I had a brand new one still in the crate?
I would say " wanna be my friend " no only kinding I got all I can handle.
Ron
Ron
No bids.. Did not sell.
Did someone miss out on a great deal?
Did someone miss out on a great deal?
Panterror,
I read the thread ..
What would be a good price if you got a guarantee that if it doesnt sonic test to satisfactory standards and Magnuflux out with no cracks, what would be a good price ? It had the crank with it too ... Is the crank any good.
Ron
Ron
I read the thread ..
What would be a good price if you got a guarantee that if it doesnt sonic test to satisfactory standards and Magnuflux out with no cracks, what would be a good price ? It had the crank with it too ... Is the crank any good.
Ron
Ron
Ron,
The Aussie blocks don't wear in the cylinders like US manufactured blocks, which to me means that even if the 0.030" block needs cleaning up, another 0.010" should do it.
If it's a NASCAR blocked sourced from Ford, then there should be plenty of material in the cylinder walls anyway, if it's a reject NASCAR block sourced from Australia, only a sonic check will determine how much cylinder wall thickness is left in each cylinder. Core shift is unpredictable.
The block is worth at least a grand if it's a Ford sourced NASCAR block. If the owner can provide a sonic check proving none of the cylinders are too thin, if there are no other problems with the block, it should fetch between $1000 to $2000 on ebay regardless if it is sourced from Ford or not. That's were the NASCAR block prices normally fall. Core shift is the only factor that separates a Ford sourced NASCAR block, from the Australian sourced ones. The blocks with too much core shift were rejected by Ford & put into production vehicles in Australia. There was one virgin block for sale not too long ago, unfortunately I didn't follow that auction.
If I had the spare cash, I would have bid on it.
My prediction that it would sell for $2500 was a total miss, wasn't it?
your friend on the DTBB
The Aussie blocks don't wear in the cylinders like US manufactured blocks, which to me means that even if the 0.030" block needs cleaning up, another 0.010" should do it.
If it's a NASCAR blocked sourced from Ford, then there should be plenty of material in the cylinder walls anyway, if it's a reject NASCAR block sourced from Australia, only a sonic check will determine how much cylinder wall thickness is left in each cylinder. Core shift is unpredictable.
The block is worth at least a grand if it's a Ford sourced NASCAR block. If the owner can provide a sonic check proving none of the cylinders are too thin, if there are no other problems with the block, it should fetch between $1000 to $2000 on ebay regardless if it is sourced from Ford or not. That's were the NASCAR block prices normally fall. Core shift is the only factor that separates a Ford sourced NASCAR block, from the Australian sourced ones. The blocks with too much core shift were rejected by Ford & put into production vehicles in Australia. There was one virgin block for sale not too long ago, unfortunately I didn't follow that auction.
If I had the spare cash, I would have bid on it.
My prediction that it would sell for $2500 was a total miss, wasn't it?
your friend on the DTBB
What's my new block worth?
Well George we will soon see when I get the block with a guarrentee ! LOL
Thanks.
Panteradoug ... I think it worth a pretty penny.
Thanks.
Panteradoug ... I think it worth a pretty penny.
So what happened on this block guys? The auction said it ended early due to an error in the listing. Did someone on the Board here buy it?
accobra, as far as good price, as they say, it's worth whatever someone would pay for it.
From my view, I think it's more the fangle factor associated with their rarity that brings the premium. For my money, the cost of having to ship an iron block, and not knowing anything about this one other than it already being .030" over and needing a bore on top of that, and some unknown level of rust damage, it all equated to not interested for me. If it had not been bored, maybe $1200-$1500 depending upon how much of the discussion below applied. George remarked that they fetch $2-2.5k on ebay. Yup. That's ebay. It's a seller's venue. -I just can't see it fellas.
XE blocks didn’t come in passenger cars (at least none were designated for such) so there's no premium that could be assigned to making a collector car original, with the possible exception of a vintage race car. So...I'd view it as a block to build a street performance or race engine and would compare it to all else available for same.
You can buy 9.2” deck SVO and Dart blocks new for $1800-$2000. Yes they will require some finishing, but they are new and you know what you have when you buy one of these parts new. This is a used block on ebay. So I would compare it to buying a used aftermarket block, which I would assign some fraction of the cost of buying new depending upon how verifiable the condition was.
Other than this, it seems one could assign some value to the XE block for not having to change accessory brackets if you had a Cleve equipped car, ability to use a Cleveland intake if you already have one that has been well worked and/or matched to your heads, and or maintaining the appearance of a Cleveland block in a car that is supposed to have a Cleveland.
I've been told by several people I know that actually have built engines with these blocks, that they are no better (or worse) than an ordinary Cleveland block in regard to wall thickness/core shift. Yes, as George remarked earlier, the race teams hand picked theirs in regard to minimizing core shift, but one could do the same on any Cleveland block. This being the said, I would think the same cautions apply to the thrust sidewall thickness when building performance Clevelands. Strong mains and webbing.....yes. However, this won't be much consolation if wall let’s go at RPM.
Having said all this, I'd certainly prefer a good XE block to a good 2 or 4 bolt Cleveland block, but only within the limits I described above.
That's my 2 cents. Or was that a whole buck?
Best regards to all,
Kelly
accobra, as far as good price, as they say, it's worth whatever someone would pay for it.
From my view, I think it's more the fangle factor associated with their rarity that brings the premium. For my money, the cost of having to ship an iron block, and not knowing anything about this one other than it already being .030" over and needing a bore on top of that, and some unknown level of rust damage, it all equated to not interested for me. If it had not been bored, maybe $1200-$1500 depending upon how much of the discussion below applied. George remarked that they fetch $2-2.5k on ebay. Yup. That's ebay. It's a seller's venue. -I just can't see it fellas.
XE blocks didn’t come in passenger cars (at least none were designated for such) so there's no premium that could be assigned to making a collector car original, with the possible exception of a vintage race car. So...I'd view it as a block to build a street performance or race engine and would compare it to all else available for same.
You can buy 9.2” deck SVO and Dart blocks new for $1800-$2000. Yes they will require some finishing, but they are new and you know what you have when you buy one of these parts new. This is a used block on ebay. So I would compare it to buying a used aftermarket block, which I would assign some fraction of the cost of buying new depending upon how verifiable the condition was.
Other than this, it seems one could assign some value to the XE block for not having to change accessory brackets if you had a Cleve equipped car, ability to use a Cleveland intake if you already have one that has been well worked and/or matched to your heads, and or maintaining the appearance of a Cleveland block in a car that is supposed to have a Cleveland.
I've been told by several people I know that actually have built engines with these blocks, that they are no better (or worse) than an ordinary Cleveland block in regard to wall thickness/core shift. Yes, as George remarked earlier, the race teams hand picked theirs in regard to minimizing core shift, but one could do the same on any Cleveland block. This being the said, I would think the same cautions apply to the thrust sidewall thickness when building performance Clevelands. Strong mains and webbing.....yes. However, this won't be much consolation if wall let’s go at RPM.
Having said all this, I'd certainly prefer a good XE block to a good 2 or 4 bolt Cleveland block, but only within the limits I described above.
That's my 2 cents. Or was that a whole buck?
Best regards to all,
Kelly
quote:Originally posted by accobra:
Well George we will soon see when I get the block with a guarrentee ! LOL ...
Ron? You swung a deal? Purchased the block?
Yes,
The seller listed it without a BUYITNOW. EBAY told him cancel the auction and list it as buy now . He did and I bought it for 1500 with a guarrantee that I will have it sonic and tested for cracks if all is good away I go. If not I eat the shipping and he returns my money.
For all there is a good company FOWARD AIR they ship cheap airport to airport.
I made many offers on a XE block's in the past year and all seem to disappear into garages and shops where they stock pile 5 10 15 and 20 of them only to brag they have them for 3000 and will not sell them.
Well as a business man I gambled and took a shot.
I agree with you George, I want a CLEVELAND in the PANTERA.
If I did wrong sorry ! but it was my determination to have this one for the car to be completed in 2 months.
Ron
The seller listed it without a BUYITNOW. EBAY told him cancel the auction and list it as buy now . He did and I bought it for 1500 with a guarrantee that I will have it sonic and tested for cracks if all is good away I go. If not I eat the shipping and he returns my money.
For all there is a good company FOWARD AIR they ship cheap airport to airport.
I made many offers on a XE block's in the past year and all seem to disappear into garages and shops where they stock pile 5 10 15 and 20 of them only to brag they have them for 3000 and will not sell them.
Well as a business man I gambled and took a shot.
I agree with you George, I want a CLEVELAND in the PANTERA.
If I did wrong sorry ! but it was my determination to have this one for the car to be completed in 2 months.
Ron
quote:Originally posted by accobra:
...Well as a business man I gambled and took a shot....
BITCHEN!
Ron,
Good luck to you on your purchase. Hopefully all will be well and you'll have a good block to build on. Done wrong? I certainly did not mean to imply such. I have a US 74 GTS that has had lot of performance mods by my hand. On occassion, I have been lambasted for altering it from stock. I can tell you, it's much more fun to drive in it's current state than as delivered from the factory. It's a sports car. It want's to be driven! -The harder you drive'm the happier they (we) are. In the end, it's all about your goals. If you achieve what you want to how can that be wrong? Let us know how you do.
Kelly
Good luck to you on your purchase. Hopefully all will be well and you'll have a good block to build on. Done wrong? I certainly did not mean to imply such. I have a US 74 GTS that has had lot of performance mods by my hand. On occassion, I have been lambasted for altering it from stock. I can tell you, it's much more fun to drive in it's current state than as delivered from the factory. It's a sports car. It want's to be driven! -The harder you drive'm the happier they (we) are. In the end, it's all about your goals. If you achieve what you want to how can that be wrong? Let us know how you do.
Kelly
$1500 for a used block, ok, my price just went up.
Technically a seasoned block is more desirable ... but not with a big hole in the side. LOL
So you got one of these tucked away ?? exactly my point ... there are many desirable parts sitting in garages. I had a 427 SOHC plus and extra brand new short block and sold it to fix the PANTERA. Oh George the block was cracked, Thats why it came with an extra short block.
Panteradoug,
How are we ever going to set the record straight on how thick the walls are and how thick the pan rails are and how thick the bulk heads are ? Common dig it out and lets put some hours on it. LOL
So George ? tell me about his 4MA crank , nodular iron ? a little tougher then cast iron but not steel ? hum ?
Ron
So you got one of these tucked away ?? exactly my point ... there are many desirable parts sitting in garages. I had a 427 SOHC plus and extra brand new short block and sold it to fix the PANTERA. Oh George the block was cracked, Thats why it came with an extra short block.
Panteradoug,
How are we ever going to set the record straight on how thick the walls are and how thick the pan rails are and how thick the bulk heads are ? Common dig it out and lets put some hours on it. LOL
So George ? tell me about his 4MA crank , nodular iron ? a little tougher then cast iron but not steel ? hum ?
Ron
The main bulkheads aren't any thicker. The pan rail is just solid as if simulating a girdle. The walls are .170". Production blocks are .160"
I think the signifigant difference is a stronger metal alloy. It's probably the same as the 427 service blocks. Looks very dark in color.
I know that they are more work to bore out.
Regular production blocks bore through on the first pass. These blocks take two or three passes each bore and dull up the cutting head with the one job.
Personally screw in plugs, a main girdle and an Aussie production block is probably better.
Those blocks will hold 1000hp and if they break, so what? Get another one for $350.
The XE blocks break too. I'd rather break a $350 block then a $3500 one. (:
I think the signifigant difference is a stronger metal alloy. It's probably the same as the 427 service blocks. Looks very dark in color.
I know that they are more work to bore out.
Regular production blocks bore through on the first pass. These blocks take two or three passes each bore and dull up the cutting head with the one job.
Personally screw in plugs, a main girdle and an Aussie production block is probably better.
Those blocks will hold 1000hp and if they break, so what? Get another one for $350.
The XE blocks break too. I'd rather break a $350 block then a $3500 one. (:
OH MAN!! Ron, you sold your SOHCammer??? Oh man, what a crappy day this has been for me.
Oh well, there is always tommorrow. I hope I have a better day tommorrow. This day has been just one bad news thing after another. Everything has gone wrong today. More so than any normal monday.
Bummer.
Oh well, there is always tommorrow. I hope I have a better day tommorrow. This day has been just one bad news thing after another. Everything has gone wrong today. More so than any normal monday.
Bummer.
quote:Originally posted by accobra:
...So George ? tell me about his 4MA crank , nodular iron ? a little tougher then cast iron but not steel ? hum ? ...
NASCAR teams considred the crank good for one 500 mile race. Before the advent of the inexpensive chinese steel cranks, that's all most people ran, the only other option were the expensive billet cranks from hard core race suppliers like HTC. The nodular iron cranks hold up fine. There is still a ton of them in service, being flogged by Mustang & Cobra & Pantera owners every weekend. It is not a weak piece.
your friend on the DTBB
George,
Thinking fo building the stroker I set out to build way back when if the block turns out good. Not sure I will use that crank.
Detom,
Yea sorry man but I need to fund the pantera .. it brought good money from some dude out of Orlando ran up here in a snow storm.
Panteradoug,
Whats said about these blocks is the casting in these areas is heavier. Any yes a friend told me his engine builder told him to take his XE some place else after boring one of these blocks due to the alloy content.
Many pictures show thicker castings ... there what 40kg heavier ? the casting got to be heavier .. you dont get that from just alloy.
Anyway we will see.
Ron
Thinking fo building the stroker I set out to build way back when if the block turns out good. Not sure I will use that crank.
Detom,
Yea sorry man but I need to fund the pantera .. it brought good money from some dude out of Orlando ran up here in a snow storm.
Panteradoug,
Whats said about these blocks is the casting in these areas is heavier. Any yes a friend told me his engine builder told him to take his XE some place else after boring one of these blocks due to the alloy content.
Many pictures show thicker castings ... there what 40kg heavier ? the casting got to be heavier .. you dont get that from just alloy.
Anyway we will see.
Ron
Yes you do get it from the alloy. Does 1 cubic foot of aluminum weigh the same as 1 cubic foot of steel?
These are like the 427's.
The service 427 side oilers are about 25 pounds heavier then the identical 66 production blocks.
They both crack just like the Cleveland does. Through the main web up into the bore.
Except for the oil pan rail XE's thicker where you can't see it. Caps are the same.
You still need to do race prep on it. It's basically just a HD production block.
I'd still run it with a girdle and screw in plugs.
These are like the 427's.
The service 427 side oilers are about 25 pounds heavier then the identical 66 production blocks.
They both crack just like the Cleveland does. Through the main web up into the bore.
Except for the oil pan rail XE's thicker where you can't see it. Caps are the same.
You still need to do race prep on it. It's basically just a HD production block.
I'd still run it with a girdle and screw in plugs.
Panteradoug,
Were we talking about an ALLOY alum block ? Sorry for the misunderstanding. We are talking about nickel castiron vs. cast iron. All I can say is the crate is 288 lbs w/ crank ?
So the heavier pan rails dont add wieght, the pictures I see on sites of other bulkier casting areas dont add wieght? I heard the posiblitiy that some are siemeze ? The pillows ? and I will verify this when I get the block for myself, and not to prove any point here.
Dont mean to argue, it just seems there are so many views and I cant get a straight answer. I always believe the only way, is to have it in hand.
Well the 427 FE a 66 could be a center oiler or a side oiler and I only bought a cracked one, and after many years of drag racing them I NEVER had an FE crack on me. And I granade'd a couple, mostly due to poor of incompentant machinists. There is a variety of reasons for wieght differences.
Only time will tell. LOL
Ron
Were we talking about an ALLOY alum block ? Sorry for the misunderstanding. We are talking about nickel castiron vs. cast iron. All I can say is the crate is 288 lbs w/ crank ?
So the heavier pan rails dont add wieght, the pictures I see on sites of other bulkier casting areas dont add wieght? I heard the posiblitiy that some are siemeze ? The pillows ? and I will verify this when I get the block for myself, and not to prove any point here.
Dont mean to argue, it just seems there are so many views and I cant get a straight answer. I always believe the only way, is to have it in hand.
Well the 427 FE a 66 could be a center oiler or a side oiler and I only bought a cracked one, and after many years of drag racing them I NEVER had an FE crack on me. And I granade'd a couple, mostly due to poor of incompentant machinists. There is a variety of reasons for wieght differences.
Only time will tell. LOL
Ron
Luck, science, who knows for sure?
quote:Detom,
Yea sorry man but I need to fund the pantera .. it brought good money from some dude out of Orlando ran up here in a snow storm.
Oh heck Ron, I don't blame you. It would have taken me about twenty years to save up enough to buy it anyway. You did the right thing. But I gots to know just one thing. Woulda have it fitted in a Pantera??? I mean sure a lot of work and all, but would it have gone in there????
> From my view, I think it's more the fangle factor associated with their rarity
> that brings the premium.
That's typical for out-of-production hot rod items.
> XE blocks didn t come in passenger cars (at least none were designated for
> such) so there's no premium that could be assigned to making a collector car
> original, with the possible exception of a vintage race car.
You're correct. The only XE blocks that were put in to production cars
were rejects. There were quite a few of the second batch of XE race blocks
that didn't meet minimum specs with respect to core shift and other defects.
Some of these blocks were subsequently transferred to the standard machining
production line and were sometimes fitted with two bolt main bearing caps
(depending on when they were discovered to be defective) for use in a standard
passenger car or truck engine.
> So...I'd view it as a block to build a street performance or race engine and
> would compare it to all else available for same.
I've been thinking about using mine as the foudation of a back up motor to my
Fontana but it's kind of hard to pull apart a freshly assembled short block
with Ford XH1 forged steel crank, Carrillo rods, custom forged pistons,
dry sump, etc. If I do build it as a back up, I'll probably sell off all
those parts. I don't plan on turning the RPM to need that stuff.
> Other than this, it seems one could assign some value to the XE block for not
> having to change accessory brackets if you had a Cleve equipped car, ability
> to use a Cleveland intake if you already have one that has been well worked
> and/or matched to your heads, and or maintaining the appearance of a
> Cleveland block in a car that is supposed to have a Cleveland.
And also not having to buy another $450 road race oil pan or having to
change the coolant lines, etc.
> I've been told by several people I know that actually have built engines with
> these blocks, that they are no better (or worse) than an ordinary Cleveland
> block in regard to wall thickness/core shift.
Was that Dennis at PPC? I was told by Kip (formerly of PPC) just the opposite.
He said the XE's that passed through the shop didn't have any core shift
problems and he's bored them for sleeves and never broken through, unlike
standard blocks. He also mentioned sonic testing a bunch of Aussie 2 bolt
main blocks only to discover they were no better than standard U.S. blocks.
> This being the said, I would think the same cautions apply to the thrust
> sidewall thickness when building performance Clevelands.
Agreed. Even though the core-shifted blocks were culled from the race program,
they still have made their way onto the used market. Buyer beware.
> How are we ever going to set the record straight on how thick the walls are
> and how thick the pan rails are and how thick the bulk heads are? Common dig
> it out and lets put some hours on it.
I've currently got an XE, a U.S. 2 bolt main, and a U.S. 4 bolt main block
in the garage. When the weather warms up a bit, I plan to do just that.
> The main bulkheads aren't any thicker. The pan rail is just solid as if
> simulating a girdle. The walls are .170". Production blocks are .160"
Where are you getting the wall info from?
> Personally screw in plugs, a main girdle and an Aussie production block is
> probably better. Those blocks will hold 1000hp.
Not for any length of time. On my scale, the production Aussie blocks don't
weigh anymore than a standard U.S. block and they don't sonic test any
different. XE blocks are a different story.
> NASCAR teams considred the crank good for one 500 mile race.
Yup. NASCAR engine builder Mario Rossi said they would pitch the iron cranks
after a single 500 mile race but the billet cranks could last 6 races. Said
similar things about the XE block.
> Any yes a friend told me his engine builder told him to take his XE some
> place else after boring one of these blocks due to the alloy content.
It might be worthwhile to brinnel test my XE and a production 351C block to
see if there's any difference. Even standard 5.0L blocks are harder to
bore than the typical 350 SBC block.
> Except for the oil pan rail XE's thicker where you can't see it. Caps are
> the same.
The caps on both my XE blocks were beefier than the standard 4V caps.
If your XE has standard caps, I wonder if it was one of the rejects fitted
with production caps?
> I'd still run it with a girdle and screw in plugs.
The Boss 302 screw-in plugs are available but you need a big honking tap.
Not exactly a girdle but my first XE block had main cap straps installed,
supposedly by Roush:
http://www.bacomatic.org/gallery/dan-ausclv/Aus_Clev_4
A lot of builders don't like girdles. If I did a girdle it would have to
be done with a material with the same theremal expansion as the block and
caps. A friend ran a girdle on his 5.0L block and it walked the caps anyway.
> I heard the posiblitiy that some are siemeze?
None that I've personally inspected were Siamese, though I know of an SK
iron block that was.
> The pillows?
The so-called pillow blocks were from the second casting, manufactured
during 1982 and 1983. The fist batch was cast in the 1975 time frame.
Dan Jones
> that brings the premium.
That's typical for out-of-production hot rod items.
> XE blocks didn t come in passenger cars (at least none were designated for
> such) so there's no premium that could be assigned to making a collector car
> original, with the possible exception of a vintage race car.
You're correct. The only XE blocks that were put in to production cars
were rejects. There were quite a few of the second batch of XE race blocks
that didn't meet minimum specs with respect to core shift and other defects.
Some of these blocks were subsequently transferred to the standard machining
production line and were sometimes fitted with two bolt main bearing caps
(depending on when they were discovered to be defective) for use in a standard
passenger car or truck engine.
> So...I'd view it as a block to build a street performance or race engine and
> would compare it to all else available for same.
I've been thinking about using mine as the foudation of a back up motor to my
Fontana but it's kind of hard to pull apart a freshly assembled short block
with Ford XH1 forged steel crank, Carrillo rods, custom forged pistons,
dry sump, etc. If I do build it as a back up, I'll probably sell off all
those parts. I don't plan on turning the RPM to need that stuff.
> Other than this, it seems one could assign some value to the XE block for not
> having to change accessory brackets if you had a Cleve equipped car, ability
> to use a Cleveland intake if you already have one that has been well worked
> and/or matched to your heads, and or maintaining the appearance of a
> Cleveland block in a car that is supposed to have a Cleveland.
And also not having to buy another $450 road race oil pan or having to
change the coolant lines, etc.
> I've been told by several people I know that actually have built engines with
> these blocks, that they are no better (or worse) than an ordinary Cleveland
> block in regard to wall thickness/core shift.
Was that Dennis at PPC? I was told by Kip (formerly of PPC) just the opposite.
He said the XE's that passed through the shop didn't have any core shift
problems and he's bored them for sleeves and never broken through, unlike
standard blocks. He also mentioned sonic testing a bunch of Aussie 2 bolt
main blocks only to discover they were no better than standard U.S. blocks.
> This being the said, I would think the same cautions apply to the thrust
> sidewall thickness when building performance Clevelands.
Agreed. Even though the core-shifted blocks were culled from the race program,
they still have made their way onto the used market. Buyer beware.
> How are we ever going to set the record straight on how thick the walls are
> and how thick the pan rails are and how thick the bulk heads are? Common dig
> it out and lets put some hours on it.
I've currently got an XE, a U.S. 2 bolt main, and a U.S. 4 bolt main block
in the garage. When the weather warms up a bit, I plan to do just that.
> The main bulkheads aren't any thicker. The pan rail is just solid as if
> simulating a girdle. The walls are .170". Production blocks are .160"
Where are you getting the wall info from?
> Personally screw in plugs, a main girdle and an Aussie production block is
> probably better. Those blocks will hold 1000hp.
Not for any length of time. On my scale, the production Aussie blocks don't
weigh anymore than a standard U.S. block and they don't sonic test any
different. XE blocks are a different story.
> NASCAR teams considred the crank good for one 500 mile race.
Yup. NASCAR engine builder Mario Rossi said they would pitch the iron cranks
after a single 500 mile race but the billet cranks could last 6 races. Said
similar things about the XE block.
> Any yes a friend told me his engine builder told him to take his XE some
> place else after boring one of these blocks due to the alloy content.
It might be worthwhile to brinnel test my XE and a production 351C block to
see if there's any difference. Even standard 5.0L blocks are harder to
bore than the typical 350 SBC block.
> Except for the oil pan rail XE's thicker where you can't see it. Caps are
> the same.
The caps on both my XE blocks were beefier than the standard 4V caps.
If your XE has standard caps, I wonder if it was one of the rejects fitted
with production caps?
> I'd still run it with a girdle and screw in plugs.
The Boss 302 screw-in plugs are available but you need a big honking tap.
Not exactly a girdle but my first XE block had main cap straps installed,
supposedly by Roush:
http://www.bacomatic.org/gallery/dan-ausclv/Aus_Clev_4
A lot of builders don't like girdles. If I did a girdle it would have to
be done with a material with the same theremal expansion as the block and
caps. A friend ran a girdle on his 5.0L block and it walked the caps anyway.
> I heard the posiblitiy that some are siemeze?
None that I've personally inspected were Siamese, though I know of an SK
iron block that was.
> The pillows?
The so-called pillow blocks were from the second casting, manufactured
during 1982 and 1983. The fist batch was cast in the 1975 time frame.
Dan Jones
Dan,
I was going to ask for some expert advise and there you are !
Ron
I was going to ask for some expert advise and there you are !
Ron
Ron, don't be confused. You'll see. The bulkheads are the same thickness as the bearing saddles the full height & width of the bulkhead.
The production block has material removed from the bulkheads, so that the oil passages can be detected, not so with the XE block. You can't see the oil passages in the bulkheads of the XE block. The bare XE block is 20 pounds heavier than the bare production block for this reason.
Lets just hope the cylinders are OK, or at least bore-able. that's a good block, the most "choice quality" block available at this time for the Clevo. Good 'nuff for the NASCAR boys.
your friend on the DTBB
The production block has material removed from the bulkheads, so that the oil passages can be detected, not so with the XE block. You can't see the oil passages in the bulkheads of the XE block. The bare XE block is 20 pounds heavier than the bare production block for this reason.
Lets just hope the cylinders are OK, or at least bore-able. that's a good block, the most "choice quality" block available at this time for the Clevo. Good 'nuff for the NASCAR boys.
your friend on the DTBB
Brille testing the blocks would be a great idea Dan.
One can't argue with scientific evidence can one?
It was actually, the one and only John Vermersch that started the entire "rumor" about high nickle blocks way back when he was a mere grasshopper in the Ford Muscle Parts program.
He was still in supervision at "Ford Racing" last year. (He is of retirement age)
I met him many years ago when he was coming to our SAAC events with his orange 60 Ford Galaxie 427 'Cammer. He would also talk to us nuts and give us the low down, always off the record of course.
I did talk to him last year about another item and did mention to him about this high nickle block stuff and how much controversey (grief) it has caused 30 years later and he said, typically off the record to forget about that, he made it up.
Now, don't quote me on this 'cause I know nothing, I see nothing, I hear nothing...none of this came from me. As you all know by now I'm totally dillusional. I hear voices I just don't understand what they are saying. They are in a foreign language.
ACC, I had two broken 427 blocks. One cracked through #4 web up into #7. The other just cracked the wall of 7 or 8. I don't remember. I guess you babied yours? Never took pictures of this stuff in those days. Just threw them away.
The guy you really want to talk to about the block is Donald Toppe, Warren Toppes father. That is presuming he is still with us.
He was either the exec. vp of the "foundry division" or something like that.
This entire problem is caused by him, by the fact that Ford US, owns Ford Canada, owns Ford Australia.
The D2AE-CA, is the US production block, but is cast in Australia. Few if any may have been cast in Cleveland. The CA in the casting stands for Canada. I can't tell ya who told me that. It could violate his paroll if it got out.
I'm sure Ford just did this to make everyone look like jerks.
The Australian version still has the CF foundry mark on the top rear(if you can read it) and the front of the block is stamped G with a number on it. Sometimes a JG with the J looking like a combination of a 7 and a J. The G, is the mintmark for Getrag (sorry, think I spelled it wrong).
The big three all did there own versions of cheating in production racing catagories.
The D2AE-CA are the blocks run in Pro-stock way back since it was a stock block class. No one will admit that they are anything other then US production. They are US production.
The Boss 351 is an D0AE-A casting. The XE and the aluminum blocks were for match races which were run what ya brung. Mostly aluminum mountain "motors" as I recall.
Toppe is the "father" of all these blocks. They only exist at all because of him. Well, and yes because his son Warren, had "influence' on him.
You Pantera guys heard of Warren Toppe right?
Of course to me, the stories, whether true or not are the most fun of these discussions.
Not to prove anyone right or wrong.
Too bad we can't do the "crash test" on them to see what each would take (unless Ron might...nah forget it).
To me, the only reason to use an XE block these days is if you got one cheap or you were getting ready to mount a serious international indurance racing effort. LeManns is in May or June, I forgot. Daytona's when? Dam, missed it again.
One can't argue with scientific evidence can one?
It was actually, the one and only John Vermersch that started the entire "rumor" about high nickle blocks way back when he was a mere grasshopper in the Ford Muscle Parts program.
He was still in supervision at "Ford Racing" last year. (He is of retirement age)
I met him many years ago when he was coming to our SAAC events with his orange 60 Ford Galaxie 427 'Cammer. He would also talk to us nuts and give us the low down, always off the record of course.
I did talk to him last year about another item and did mention to him about this high nickle block stuff and how much controversey (grief) it has caused 30 years later and he said, typically off the record to forget about that, he made it up.
Now, don't quote me on this 'cause I know nothing, I see nothing, I hear nothing...none of this came from me. As you all know by now I'm totally dillusional. I hear voices I just don't understand what they are saying. They are in a foreign language.
ACC, I had two broken 427 blocks. One cracked through #4 web up into #7. The other just cracked the wall of 7 or 8. I don't remember. I guess you babied yours? Never took pictures of this stuff in those days. Just threw them away.
The guy you really want to talk to about the block is Donald Toppe, Warren Toppes father. That is presuming he is still with us.
He was either the exec. vp of the "foundry division" or something like that.
This entire problem is caused by him, by the fact that Ford US, owns Ford Canada, owns Ford Australia.
The D2AE-CA, is the US production block, but is cast in Australia. Few if any may have been cast in Cleveland. The CA in the casting stands for Canada. I can't tell ya who told me that. It could violate his paroll if it got out.
I'm sure Ford just did this to make everyone look like jerks.
The Australian version still has the CF foundry mark on the top rear(if you can read it) and the front of the block is stamped G with a number on it. Sometimes a JG with the J looking like a combination of a 7 and a J. The G, is the mintmark for Getrag (sorry, think I spelled it wrong).
The big three all did there own versions of cheating in production racing catagories.
The D2AE-CA are the blocks run in Pro-stock way back since it was a stock block class. No one will admit that they are anything other then US production. They are US production.
The Boss 351 is an D0AE-A casting. The XE and the aluminum blocks were for match races which were run what ya brung. Mostly aluminum mountain "motors" as I recall.
Toppe is the "father" of all these blocks. They only exist at all because of him. Well, and yes because his son Warren, had "influence' on him.
You Pantera guys heard of Warren Toppe right?
Of course to me, the stories, whether true or not are the most fun of these discussions.
Not to prove anyone right or wrong.
Too bad we can't do the "crash test" on them to see what each would take (unless Ron might...nah forget it).
To me, the only reason to use an XE block these days is if you got one cheap or you were getting ready to mount a serious international indurance racing effort. LeManns is in May or June, I forgot. Daytona's when? Dam, missed it again.
Doug,
LOL your a funny man !!!! LOL
I babied mine ?? You know your right ! Thats the reason. No the real reason is my friends did a lot of R&D on 428's & 427's my engine was built by them with a promise. They spent thousands of dollars testing them and seeing what worked. Come to find out it wasnt the block. The car ran 10:90 all day with a stock 428cj alternator and all. It was .060 with thin cylinder walls the last one.
If your selling yours cheap I'm sure there is a buyer here on the site since your not planning Lemans or Daytona are you ? LOL
R
LOL your a funny man !!!! LOL
I babied mine ?? You know your right ! Thats the reason. No the real reason is my friends did a lot of R&D on 428's & 427's my engine was built by them with a promise. They spent thousands of dollars testing them and seeing what worked. Come to find out it wasnt the block. The car ran 10:90 all day with a stock 428cj alternator and all. It was .060 with thin cylinder walls the last one.
If your selling yours cheap I'm sure there is a buyer here on the site since your not planning Lemans or Daytona are you ? LOL
R
Detom,
Sorry Detom but the time was right to sell... Barret Jackson has done wonders for this industry.
No actually I dont think it would have fit I think I would have had to relo the gas tank and some other stuff. It was heavy, I'm not one to sit things I cant use. The guy out of Orlando collects them. He has a use for it God Bless him he got a good deal from me.
Maybe I got a good deal on my block if not back it goes and I look for another. Patience and they will come !
Ron
Sorry Detom but the time was right to sell... Barret Jackson has done wonders for this industry.
No actually I dont think it would have fit I think I would have had to relo the gas tank and some other stuff. It was heavy, I'm not one to sit things I cant use. The guy out of Orlando collects them. He has a use for it God Bless him he got a good deal from me.
Maybe I got a good deal on my block if not back it goes and I look for another. Patience and they will come !
Ron
Thanks Ron. I feel better about it. I kinda though that because it had all that cam drive stuff hanging on the front, that it would be too long for the P-car. I always loved the 427 FE. It was an amazing engine. I know they called it a big block, but really it isn't much bigger than a Cleveland and it is way smaller than the 460 block. Really what I have always wanted, but will never have, is a Mk IV. It had a 427 with two four barrels in it. The bundle of snakes, the whole nine yards. Won Lemans in 69 I think. It was an amazing car. The cheapest one I ever saw was like 280 grand though. I saw one for a half million owned by the emerson fitpaldi guy in Brazil. So the closet I would ever get would be a P-car with a transplanted side oiler. But then again, I will maybe just try to be rich, my next go around in life. Being rich makes stuff like this so much easier. 