I think I had a picture of a cammer in a Pantera in a Pantera Performance "catalog" from about 1985 DT.
It didn't show the details, just the engine sitting in the car.
I haven't seen it lately. I may not have saved it. If I have it, it is in deep storage.
I do remember snickering at it. It had a Moon fuel tank in the back.
I am pretty sure it was PP that did several FE installations. Something about a kit.
I never saw one in person.
I remember a publication, can't remember which, mentioning that they weren't any faster (quater mile) then a 351C. They were talking low 12's.
It might be the old Super Ford if you want to research.
There is an aluminum head version of the cammer that would help on the weight. The iron version has to be 700 pounds or more. They are a good 150 pounds heavier then a regular FE.
Sorry to say, I didn't save everything on the Pantera back then.
Dropped the block off today and some quick observations with my builder was that it was definately used for racing. The block has a thread on the oil pump hole in the pan rail, meaning it was run as a dry sump for some time. The cylinders are at .030 ... plugs in the lifter galley ... it gets spec tommorow.
quote:I think I had a picture of a cammer in a Pantera in a Pantera Performance "catalog" from about 1985 DT.
It didn't show the details, just the engine sitting in the car.
Doug you are just saying that to depress me and ruin my day.
I have a picture of a Pantera at home that has zoomie pipes coming out the side. I doubt it ever ran too. Like a lot of "show" cars. No, if I ever win the lottery I am going to buy one of those all aluminum, brand spanking new FE blocks, and even though you can buy them at over 500 cubic inches, I am gonna leave it at 427. Just a side oiler, but still, I gotta have an engine that will run 7500 RPM all day long without hurting it. It seems like such a small thing to ask in the day of 9500 RPM production engines.
There is good yestertech and bad yestertech. Pick a good one DT.
Doug, back in it's day the good old sideoiler was an amazing feat of engineering. It ran the 24 hours of LeMans while turning 7500 RPM for most of the run. It ran NASCAR for hours on end right at that same redline. It had 13.5 to one compression, yet didn't blow head gaskets. It was awesome.
quote:Originally posted by DeTom:
Doug, back in it's day the good old sideoiler was an amazing feat of engineering. It ran the 24 hours of LeMans while turning 7500 RPM for most of the run. It ran NASCAR for hours on end right at that same redline. It had 13.5 to one compression, yet didn't blow head gaskets. It was awesome.
Yes DT, I am not a Ford novice. The 427 did run at Lemans but the cars were RESTRICTED to a max of 6200 rpm's.
427's don't run well over 7000 rpm unless you modify them to use Chevy small journal rods. That really is the fix for lack of oil at 7 & 8.
If you don't do that the engine is a grenade at 7000 rpm.
Cammers are all show unless they are seriously modified. The timing chains are like 6 feet long each.
There is no point in running and overhead cam engine unless you are going to turn big rpm. The 427 Ford is just what Ferrari said it was, a big Galaxie engine.
Side oiler, no side oiler. 7001 rpm, gaboom!
sorry Doug but my 428 reved and made HP to 7200 with 4:56's and turned high 10's and a 428 is less the capable then a 427. The 427 I suspect if you plan to race it its set up properly to do so. Solid lifter cams for those engines are available for max 8000 rpm. The parts are available and the proof lies with the people who race them. Look at the record holders for a/s b/s & c/s classes in the US for drag racing. They are held mostly by Big block FE's. Bill Cerelli in Paterson NJ is the MAN for FE's. The rest are just your average parts changers. But he is not cheap. I never blew one up on over reving. One of the parts changers I used in the early days forgot to put the cam washer on the front of the timing gear and the pin walked out over time. Yes caboom, but not becuase of the motor. Oh the restrictors in the heads solve the # 7 & 8 Oil problem. Not much oil is needed for a shaft style rocker system, filling the block helps and we always used soft VANDERVEL engine bearings.
The timing chain in a SOHC is 10'+/- and the race versions I think it was Holman Moody who converted the race versions to Gear drive.
Ferrari always had their comments being that
FORD & SHELBY set out with a vengence to beat Ferrari. If it was a Big Galaxy Engine ?? those TOP FUELER / GASSERS with SOHC's in them were some wierd looking GALAXIES ??
My belief is whats the track record.
Ron
The timing chain in a SOHC is 10'+/- and the race versions I think it was Holman Moody who converted the race versions to Gear drive.
Ferrari always had their comments being that
FORD & SHELBY set out with a vengence to beat Ferrari. If it was a Big Galaxy Engine ?? those TOP FUELER / GASSERS with SOHC's in them were some wierd looking GALAXIES ??
My belief is whats the track record.
Ron
Doug you are a blasphemer. Chevy anything in a FORD!????? Get behind me oh dark one. You defile that which is sacred!!
1/4 mile hardly makes a 2.5 mile LeMans straitaway, sorry AC. Drag racers need not apply. The 427 has severe problems on the #7 and #8 bearings due to reciprocating weight. The oil molacules break down under the load and metal to metal occurs. It's only a matter of time.
There are all sorts of "the ultimate secrets" run on the FE's. Oil lines directly to the #7-8 oil port on side oilers and more, not to mention aluminum rods for drag racing.
I will say that I have seen theoretically identical engines from the identical engine builder go 50/50. One survives and one blows. Funny though, the ones that survive seem go for years.
Let's put it this way AC will your engine builder guaranty the engine over 7000? It doesn't matter really anymore. I no longer build them.
All those 427 blocks with sleeves in 7 & 8 were made necessary by rod bearing failure on 7 & 8 when the rod let go due to oiling issues.
DT the 6200 quote was from Phil Remington, not me.
Thanks for calling me an idiot AC, I don't appreciate. I know what I know.
Have a nice life.
There are all sorts of "the ultimate secrets" run on the FE's. Oil lines directly to the #7-8 oil port on side oilers and more, not to mention aluminum rods for drag racing.
I will say that I have seen theoretically identical engines from the identical engine builder go 50/50. One survives and one blows. Funny though, the ones that survive seem go for years.
Let's put it this way AC will your engine builder guaranty the engine over 7000? It doesn't matter really anymore. I no longer build them.
All those 427 blocks with sleeves in 7 & 8 were made necessary by rod bearing failure on 7 & 8 when the rod let go due to oiling issues.
DT the 6200 quote was from Phil Remington, not me.
Thanks for calling me an idiot AC, I don't appreciate. I know what I know.
Have a nice life.
I read from the famed engine builder "PINKS" when he talked about engines. He said he was succesfull because he worked all engines but the worst one was the 427. He said every time they made any power from the engines the crank came out. Often when bringing the cars back they had to keep a rolling jack under the crank and rotating assemblies. I know he was probably making more power then anyone here but I thought it interesting.
Gary
Gary
Doug, I have never built an engine. Not a single one, so you do know way more about it than I do. I read magazines and yep I have read enoug magazines to realize that they tend to make things look better than they really are. If you say the side oiler is a piece of crap, I will believe you because you have had actual hands on.
What I was giving you crap about was the idea of using chevy stuff. Hell I used to own a Corvette, I had lots of GM cars. But now I really hate GM. Maybe not for their cars, but for the way they ran their company in the ground and wouldn't do common sense things. Once GM stated be run by accountants, it ruined an AMerican dynasty.
It was nothing personal Doug. Your my bud. I do trust you and do believ in what you said.
What I was giving you crap about was the idea of using chevy stuff. Hell I used to own a Corvette, I had lots of GM cars. But now I really hate GM. Maybe not for their cars, but for the way they ran their company in the ground and wouldn't do common sense things. Once GM stated be run by accountants, it ruined an AMerican dynasty.
It was nothing personal Doug. Your my bud. I do trust you and do believ in what you said.
Panteradoug,
I did not call you an IDIOT sorry you feel that way. If I offended you sorry. I respect your difference of opinion. I was hoping you respected mine.
I guess we have had different experiences.. mine came from racing this motor over the coarse of a decade.
I meant no disrespect.
Ron
I did not call you an IDIOT sorry you feel that way. If I offended you sorry. I respect your difference of opinion. I was hoping you respected mine.
I guess we have had different experiences.. mine came from racing this motor over the coarse of a decade.
I meant no disrespect.
Ron
Working on a 427 SOHC and driving around town as a passenger with the owner, are some of my wildest early teenage memories.
His was the single 4 barrel version (615 bhp), the owner (named Don) bought a used 64 Galaxy 2 door equipped with a 390 GT, 4 speed top loader & 9" rear. Don bought the cammer over the counter, pulled the 390 & plopped the cammer in its place. That's when the fun began.
Do you know how long you can smoke the tires of a Galaxy with a cammer in the engine bay? Well, Don decided to find out! Within an hour, new tires were worn down to the cord. He, he, he. Don could burn rubber in any gear, including 4th, at will, from any speed, just by jabbing the gas pedal.
The motor never gave him any trouble. The valves didn't require that much adjusting, the cam chains did! No points either! He drag raced it a little, but mostly, it was his fun car. He drove it to work too. Remember, gas was only 35 cents per gallon back then. 25 cents when there was a gas war, remember gas wars?
The drive train was what broke on Don's Galaxy. He bent the leaf springs into "s" shapes. So on went traction bars. He snapped axles, broke carriers, stripped teeth off the pinion gear. chipped teeth on the ring gear. Snapped u joints and the drive shaft. Smoked more than a few clutches. Stripped gears in the top loader too. As each part broke, Don would spend the bucks for the heavy duty stuff. But damn, he didn't mind breaking his car, he was proud of it! He'd drop by, ask me to repair his car with the biggest grin on his face. He thought it was bitchen his motor was so powerful it could twist all those parts into pretzels. That was the late 60s. Working in the garage until 1 or 2 in the morning, music blasting on the radio, telling jokes, banging our knuckles. Don would tell me, "gotta get it fixed George, I need it to get to work in the morning" "Crap Don it's 2 AM! You gotta get up at 6!" He'd say, "you got school too!" We'd laugh. He had a muffler shop do the 4 muffler exhaust system, ever seen one of them? Don heard about it at a speed shop, they said its what all the Detroit insiders run on their cars. It was quiet, yet allowed the cammer to make the 615 bhp it was designed to produce. Each bank of cylinders exhausted into 2 mufflers.
Picture this, Don pulls up to a red light in a tired looking Galaxy. Next to him, in the other lane, is a new big block Corvette. Don had half the money invested in his car, compared to what the 'Vette owner spent on his. Don revs the motor & challnges the 'Vette to a race at the light, the 'Vette driver nods, thinking he's got the baddest car on the road, he can't lose. He's probably thinking the Galaxy has a 390 under that fiberglass bubble on the hood. The light turns green Don drops the clutch and leaves that big block 'Vette sucking tire smoke like his motor had stalled. I've been there, done that, as Don's passenger. The cammer had 200 bhp more ponies than even the big block 'Vette, that's 50% more power.
I'm a sports car guy, attracted mostly to sports cars. But I would love to acquire a cammer and drop it in a 1964 two door Galaxy, lower it, cut the wheel wells, make it look NASCAR circa 1964. The current Z06 'Vette (505 bhp) the current Viper (550 bhp) still, 40 years later, don't produce as much bhp with equal or more displacement.
Bitchen memories.
His was the single 4 barrel version (615 bhp), the owner (named Don) bought a used 64 Galaxy 2 door equipped with a 390 GT, 4 speed top loader & 9" rear. Don bought the cammer over the counter, pulled the 390 & plopped the cammer in its place. That's when the fun began.
Do you know how long you can smoke the tires of a Galaxy with a cammer in the engine bay? Well, Don decided to find out! Within an hour, new tires were worn down to the cord. He, he, he. Don could burn rubber in any gear, including 4th, at will, from any speed, just by jabbing the gas pedal.
The motor never gave him any trouble. The valves didn't require that much adjusting, the cam chains did! No points either! He drag raced it a little, but mostly, it was his fun car. He drove it to work too. Remember, gas was only 35 cents per gallon back then. 25 cents when there was a gas war, remember gas wars?
The drive train was what broke on Don's Galaxy. He bent the leaf springs into "s" shapes. So on went traction bars. He snapped axles, broke carriers, stripped teeth off the pinion gear. chipped teeth on the ring gear. Snapped u joints and the drive shaft. Smoked more than a few clutches. Stripped gears in the top loader too. As each part broke, Don would spend the bucks for the heavy duty stuff. But damn, he didn't mind breaking his car, he was proud of it! He'd drop by, ask me to repair his car with the biggest grin on his face. He thought it was bitchen his motor was so powerful it could twist all those parts into pretzels. That was the late 60s. Working in the garage until 1 or 2 in the morning, music blasting on the radio, telling jokes, banging our knuckles. Don would tell me, "gotta get it fixed George, I need it to get to work in the morning" "Crap Don it's 2 AM! You gotta get up at 6!" He'd say, "you got school too!" We'd laugh. He had a muffler shop do the 4 muffler exhaust system, ever seen one of them? Don heard about it at a speed shop, they said its what all the Detroit insiders run on their cars. It was quiet, yet allowed the cammer to make the 615 bhp it was designed to produce. Each bank of cylinders exhausted into 2 mufflers.
Picture this, Don pulls up to a red light in a tired looking Galaxy. Next to him, in the other lane, is a new big block Corvette. Don had half the money invested in his car, compared to what the 'Vette owner spent on his. Don revs the motor & challnges the 'Vette to a race at the light, the 'Vette driver nods, thinking he's got the baddest car on the road, he can't lose. He's probably thinking the Galaxy has a 390 under that fiberglass bubble on the hood. The light turns green Don drops the clutch and leaves that big block 'Vette sucking tire smoke like his motor had stalled. I've been there, done that, as Don's passenger. The cammer had 200 bhp more ponies than even the big block 'Vette, that's 50% more power.
I'm a sports car guy, attracted mostly to sports cars. But I would love to acquire a cammer and drop it in a 1964 two door Galaxy, lower it, cut the wheel wells, make it look NASCAR circa 1964. The current Z06 'Vette (505 bhp) the current Viper (550 bhp) still, 40 years later, don't produce as much bhp with equal or more displacement.
Bitchen memories.
This kind of discussion always reminds of a high school buddy who had a 454 Nova. He unloosened the knobs on his radio so that when he dropped the clutch, those knobs would fly off the radio into the back seat. Really a dramatic effect for any first time rider and he'd always say something really corny to the effect that he couldn't believe the car was so fast that it would do that. After a while, though, it became a pain in a$$ having to fetch the knobs from the back seat.
Jeff
6559
Jeff
6559
I always liked the AFX Mustangs and Falcons personally.
A 'cammer Falcon Ranchero would work for me. Maybe tub the rear.
A 'cammer Falcon Ranchero would work for me. Maybe tub the rear.
Doesn't this discusion always bring up "Reminds me of when...."
My brother with his Cobra. Certainly not a sleeper. He and his wife were driving down the highway. They took off at a stop light not realizeing the kid in the "Hopped up" Camero thought they were racing as they took off from the light. They heard the noise coming from the camero, glance over "check out this kid next us. He thinks were racing!" they start laughing, they were just in normal acceleration from the stop light. He put's the gas pedal down and leaves him like he's standing still. 675rwhp, 2400lbs! Poor kid!
Gary
My brother with his Cobra. Certainly not a sleeper. He and his wife were driving down the highway. They took off at a stop light not realizeing the kid in the "Hopped up" Camero thought they were racing as they took off from the light. They heard the noise coming from the camero, glance over "check out this kid next us. He thinks were racing!" they start laughing, they were just in normal acceleration from the stop light. He put's the gas pedal down and leaves him like he's standing still. 675rwhp, 2400lbs! Poor kid!
Gary
