3rd gear grind and pop out

Check your grunion bushing, and make sure one of the linkage U-joints is not slipping.

Same symptoms on mine - it came on suddenly, it was one of the joints slipping.

Rocky

Thanks for the tip. I was able to look at the rear joints to make sure they are tight and they were tight and I looked to see if there were any marks on the rod showing slippage but nothing visible. Tough for me to get to the joints by the engine & seems I would have to jack up the car to really get at those. If I keep these cars I really need to get a very low car jack, especially for the black 5s because it is real low. I may just take it into Tommy because the rear trans bushings need replacing anyway since they are crumbling a bit. Maybe that is actually part of the problem, however there isn't really any give there from what I can tell. Too many cars isn't all that fun anymore once I passed 60. Like what Danny Glover says in Lethal Weapon "I'm getting too old for this shit". Or I just drive & skip 3rd gear, haha. At least I can get it to his shop that way but need to get a low jack as well.

quote:

Originally posted by DOES 200:
Thanks for the tip. I was able to look at the rear joints to make sure they are tight and they were tight and I looked to see if there were any marks on the rod showing slippage but nothing visible. Tough for me to get to the joints by the engine & seems I would have to jack up the car to really get at those. If I keep these cars I really need to get a very low car jack, especially for the black 5s because it is real low. I may just take it into Tommy because the rear trans bushings need replacing anyway since they are crumbling a bit. Maybe that is actually part of the problem, however there isn't really any give there from what I can tell. Too many cars isn't all that fun anymore once I passed 60. Like what Danny Glover says in Lethal Weapon "I'm getting too old for this shit". Or I just drive & skip 3rd gear, haha. At least I can get it to his shop that way but need to get a low jack as well.

Funny You mention Tommy!
I just talked with him earlier today! This Trans thing is going around? My Car was working good, then out of the blue had no Reverse? Found loose linkage, tightened everything and tried to readjust the linkage but so far only R, 1-2-3 no 4-5? Tommy give me some advise on what to do! So hopefully tomorrow I'll have R and all 5 gears!

I know what you mean about the over 60 thing!
Good Luck!

If you adjusted that turnbuckle, it’s VERY easy to get that misaligned.

That adjustment needs you to lock the shift lever exactly in the center of the gate while in N.

You’ll get it though.

Rocky

My neutral point measures 1&10/16" in front of the shifter stick and 1&12/16" to the rear of the shifter. Need a low profile jack maybe from harbor freight or costco if I am to get under there myself. For now I suppose if I shift it into 3rd and look in from the engine bay, maybe I could see if there is any slippage in any rod joints (such as clean linkage spot with no dust showing). Once I feel better its jack hunting time or Tommy.

I would think, it is a waste of time to adjust linkage with the ZF flopping around due to the crumbling mounts

get yourself a set of low ramps (the black plastic ones that are only a couple of inches high), back the car onto them and then use your current floor jack to jack the car up. Much easier than trying to find a floor jack that has such a low stack height.

quote:

Originally posted by Panterapatt:
get yourself a set of low ramps (the black plastic ones that are only a couple of inches high), back the car onto them and then use your current floor jack to jack the car up. Much easier than trying to find a floor jack that has such a low stack height.

Funny you mention the ramps because last time I used a few of my wife's magazines for ramps, Martha Stewart I think. I do have some ramps, but last time I tried them somehow the drivers side tire gripped a ramp and threw it under/to the side of my Pantera almost hitting my Lambo. So I did away with that idea. Anyway, I know I need to replace my trans mounts but I was just curious if I could see any rod slippage in the shaft up near the engine if I could scoot under that area of the car. Sucks not feeling well to just take a look.

Jan, you do know that on most floor jacks, the circular part that contacts the frame is supposed to rotate a bit, and can be removed, lowering the lift point on such jacks by up to 3/4".....All you have to do is be more careful while jacking without it 'cause with the circular disc removed, the jack's lift point can slip.

Thanks on the jack. I checked my jack and it seems the swivel plate is pressed into a bearing, so that won't come out. Plus I shifted into 3rd and got out the handy iPhone to take close photos of the linkages to see if there were any visible signs of link slippage on the joint teeth (such as no dust) and I didn't see any. At this point it seems I just need to call Tommy to change the trans mounts and check this third gear issue. Thanks for all your input, some things I can do & some not. At least this makes me get the mounts done.

Well after a couple months I got the air ride shock leakage fixed so the car raises up & down now. So I am back to trying to find why I get some grinding when going into 3rd but no grind in any other gears. I measured the neutral point of the shifter and it measures 1&10/16" in front of the shifter stick and 1&12/16" to the rear of the shifter. So the neutral point is just slightly forward; but I checked my other two Panteras and the shifter neutral point is just slightly forward on those too with no shifting issues. Not saying that is right or not, but it is what it is on the other 2 cars too. Then I measured the black car shifter again in 2nd and in 3rd as shown below. Again, same result is that the shifter is forward just slightly. I don't find any loose linkages, but I only tried testing by hand and also visual (looking for any markings on the linkage gears).

Now back on the subject of adjusting the turnbuckle to get the shifter moved to the rear a little more in the gate so that it is dead center in the channel. Looking at the images below, from a mechanical perspective I just don't see how that would make any difference. If the theory is that maybe my shifting rod isn't pushing fully into the gearbox for 3rd gear, how would turning the turnbuckle to center the shifter make it go into the gearbox further? Based on the measurements with the car in 2nd and 3rd, it seems I have more room in the shifter gate going into third (in other words, the shifter gate isn't stopping it). Plus in my other rear facing gears that "push" into the gear box (1st & 5th) I don't have any grinding issues. Then if it was my slave, I would also think I would get grinding in other gears. I guess I could mark the turnbuckle as is and then take a shot at adjusting it, but I am just puzzled how that may make any difference anyway. To me it seems centering the shifter would amount to making the rod to the trans even shorter, and thus my push into third even shorter, no?

Black5SShifter by JanDaMan, on Flickr

This shows rod pulls forward when in second:
Black5SSecondGear by JanDaMan, on Flickr

This shows rod pushes in when in third:
Black5SThirdGear by JanDaMan, on Flickr

You might want to look at the shift linkage adjustment article on the PCNC web page. It might help.
http://www.panteraclubnorcal.o...-assistance/articles

quote:

Originally posted by forestg:
You might want to look at the shift linkage adjustment article on the PCNC web page. It might help.
http://www.panteraclubnorcal.o...-assistance/articles

Thanks for the instructional link about the trans linkage box. Interesting. I will check it out on the car to see if it is something I am capable of doing, but looks pretty straightforward. At the moment third gear is so bad, I just bypass it.

We hate to think it, but sounds like a syncro. Also, take the gate off, see if it's keeping the lever from going back far enough.

If it came on suddenly, I stick with my contention that your linkage has loosened somewhere. What happens is your linkage get shorter because of the compression and it doesn’t go far enough for good engagement in third gear.

The fact that you’re not fully engaging the gear is why it’s making a grinding noise, And popping out of gear.

The turnbuckle adjustment is a huge pain in the a$$ if you’re doing it by yourself. I would make sure everything else is verified before you adhust the turnbuckle....

Great idears to remove the gate and also to check linkage again. I probably need to remove the gate & maybe center arm concel to look at the front linkage anyway. How do you confirm they are not moving? Or maybe just stick it in 2nd or neutral and then just attempt to tighten all the linkages to be sure they are all real tight? Right now just talking rather than doing because my back is acting up. Turn 60 & all hell breaks loose. It is odd though that the grind occurs when I have the clutch pedal to the floor and attempt to get into 3rd, not when releasing the clutch pedal.

Actually to center the lever you need to have the gate ON for reference, but just in case your linkage has moved, maybe removing it will allow that little extra movement to engage.

Check for a loose trunion adjacent to the lower rear of the fuel tank. When that begins to rock, shift rod travel is reduced encumbering full engagement of the 3rd gear detent. This is your most likely culprit and easy to assess.

This is probably not your issue but just in case... I had the rod rubbing against the separator plate between the block and tranny. A little grinding with a dermal solved my problem. It was a replacement separator plate that had an edge that extended 1/8 inch too much.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JTpantera:
Check for a loose trunion adjacent to the lower rear of the fuel tank. When that begins to rock, shift rod travel is reduced encumbering full engagement of the 3rd gear detent. This is your most likely culprit and easy to assess.[/QUOTE
Trunion felt snug when grabbing it from above but will jack er up and make sure the bolt is tight and rod lubed. That is what I was going to try first till I had found my air ride failed and I couldn’t get a jack under the car. I recall that bolt is huge too, and without jacking up I found it useless to try and get a wrench on it. So that may be my first task.

Jan as a last resort, grinding in one gear may simply be a bad synchro ring inside the ZF.... There goes $$$ your Christmas presents this year!

Yeah the wife hopes it’s no syncro! I was able to get to the bottom bolt on the trunion (took a 15/16 wrench perfect). It did turn maybe 1/4 turn, but the stinkin wrench is so thick in that small area making it hard to tell if the outer part of the wrench was preventing further turning or if it was at max tightness. I greased the rod too. Not feeling well I can’t get out and drive, so as far as testing for grinding while shifting into 3rd I started it up and then shifted into 3rd a few times with no grinding noise experienced, at least until the wife was grinding at me for running it in the garage. I guess the real test will be to drive it again, maybe later this week. Funny though, when I had it out it always seemed the 3rd gear grind was worse after a good warmup but maybe just coincidence or my aging imagination.

Jan, in cases like this, I buy a cheap import open end wrench and grind the sides until about half the wrench is dust. Then it fits in the space available so you can adjust to your hearts content. Cheap wrenches are usually poorly heat treated so the grinding is easier, the wrenches are cheap to replace and such nuts aren't very tight anyway.

Yeah fat ass wrenches! I will try and grind the one I have and see how that goes. I’m no engineer but wrenches seem to be way overbuilt to me. Ive had to grind a few in the past, and yes is difficult with certain wrenches. Taking off a little edge on this one may go along way though.

also a couple 2x6s cut at 45 deg. to drive up on so the jack will fit and or you don't dent your front spoiler with the handle. two stacked up for the front works best for mine.

Well it seems that tightening the trunnion most likely did the trick. Now shifts like butta through all gears on the road. I didn't implement any of the other ideas because I was going one by one to see what may help. I forgot how fun it is to drive that car, such a ridiculous monster. But with my limited knowledge I would be lost without all the input here. Thanks again.

quote:

Originally posted by Rocky:
Check your grunion bushing, and make sure one of the linkage U-joints is not slipping.

Same symptoms on mine - it came on suddenly, it was one of the joints slipping.

Rocky

Whoo-Hoo! Called it in the second post!

Congrats!

OBTW: You know I was just funnin' you when I called it a "grunion" bushing - the grunion run on the California beaches - not in Pantera linkages!

It cracked me up, anyway!

Rocky

Yeah Rocky you got it right Godfather style sleep with the fishies. Didn’t even need to jack up the car. Was able to place an angled mirror on the ground to see wrench size needed and to tighten as well. Now to enjoy the ride until the next mechanical adventure.