4.6 advantages or disadvantages?

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
660 bhp available over the counter from Ford in 1964!

Me too. If Ron had put it in a Pantera it would have been the ONLY one in the world. A one off. He could have been just like Goran, only different.

Detom,

Yes but the motor in the pic I sold and it turned out the block was cracked due to it froze .. but I had a spare block that came as a package. The guy I sold it to out of Orlando Florida rebuilt it and its going in a Mustang.

BUT and I say BUT I think the 6.0 L 600hp Cammer in the pic George Posted is the way to go. and for 15 k its new and 1 year warranty.

The 427 SOHC had its own issues in its day ... couple things were .. the timing chain was too long 10' aprox .. had to be replaced with gear drive... adjusting valves .. you needed a Ford engineer or George ... you had to pay his salary to travel with you .. and you know these guys are big bucks. LOL

Ron

The Cammer motors don't fit well in the Pantera chassis. They are very wide. Mark DeCasien, a Jersey Panteras member tried this and switched to a Ford 392 Windsor Crate motor.

I think he found that there were just way too many fitment issues.

Steve Wilkinson has a California Smog Legal conversion for the Pantera with a Mod motor, but it is very big dollars and the performance is limited I believe.

I chose have chosen to go a third route: A 9.5, 427 cubic inch Clevor. The block is Dart's 9.5 deck sportsman block and rated for a maximum of 1200 HP. The heads are CHI 3v aluminum Cleveland heads, the 218 intake runner version.
The builder, McKeown Motorsport Engineering, in Maryland, thinks the build will come in around 625-650 HP.

The builder has selected a Jesel mechanical roller valve train, with shaft rockers. They say it should be stable up to 7200-7500 rpm. The motor will be cammed to make peak power around 6500-6800 rpm. They also said the torque should be 400 ft/lbs plus from 2500-6500 rpms.

A package like this will set you back about $18K

I think the decision to install a 6 Liter Cammer is a combo of issues.

Alterations necessary to make it fit ... that can be done ... altering the fender wells.

The issue of wieght ... can the Pantera hold up to such a large motor ... it would require a full cage and frame upgrades. ( Cant seem to pin down the actual weights in the FORD catalog )

Next would be the ZF with respect to Torque produced ... HP maybe a factor but the torque is surely some thing to consider.

Then finally is it all worth it ... you can get the same HP from a conventional small block .. less wieght .. everything bolts up .. so whats the gain ???

Hi ACCOBRA. From what I understand, the gain is in having a more civilized engine. I guess that translates into better reliability? Maybe better gas mileage too? Wes

Couldn't let the Harley bashing go without a word. You're 100% right. Harley riders have become a clown parade. Most know more about Harley fashions than Harley Davidsons.
I've owned my 1941 Knucklehead for 35 years now. The frame came from Wyoming, the motor came from Nebraska, the trans and springer came from Colorado. We knew every bearing and spacer in our bikes. We wore leathers because falling off removed skin. We camped out in tents and sleeping bags. When stuff broke we stuck it back on with scraps of barbed wire, duct tape, and bent nails. When it rained, we rode, when it snowed, we rode (as far as possible). No hotels and Winnebagos for us.
I have to wonder how much modern Ducati, BMW, Honda, etc. riders know about their motorcycles. Probably not much.
By the way, I'll run my '41 against any '41 Ducati, BMW, Honda, etc. you care to bring by.
When they've been recycled back into raw materials again, mine will still be runnin'.
I own a Pantera when I could have a new Corvette.
I own a "real" Harley when I could have any bike I want.
There is a reason for this. Damned if I know what it is though!
Mooso

Thanks Roland. My memory is not what it used to be. At least I think it is not what it used to be because I can't remember what it was.
And Ron, I didn't mean anything about that. Heck you are talking to someone who went with a CJ spec replacement motor and didn't even put that in by himself. Heck it was just a fantasy I had was all. I shouldn'ta oughta had said noting. My bad.

I don't want readers of this topic to get the idea that Ford went backwards when they designed the modular motor. That is just not the case. It is an evolutionary superior motor to earlier efforts. Smoother running, less vibration, less fluid leakage, quieter, structurally more rigid.

Sean Hyland is getting 500 bhp out of his naturally aspirated 5.0 liter motor (based on the short deck 4.6 version of the block). The all alloy 4 cam motor weighs a little less or a little more than a cleveland, depending upon whos figures you're using. It is rare to find a weight spec for any motor that specifies how the motor was dressed when it was weighed. I personally believe that a 500 bhp motor is all the Pantera needs to keep it competitive on the streets, and keeping the power level at a reasonable limit like that will help the cooling system, trans, chassis, half shafts, etc remain reliable. The further you go beyond 500 bhp, the more parts you will eventually have to replace as you BREAK them.

The mod motor was designed in the '80s when emissions, fuel econonmy and adaptability for many uses were the major design issues. Ford engineers could not forsee the current horsepower wars that are taking place in the auto industry. They thought their little 300 bhp motor would suffice for a long time, and in reality, it has done just that. It became the powerplant used in the Ford GT, I'll bet the guys on the design team were quite proud of that.

The younger owners who are slowly entering this hobby are not familiar with the old push rod motors or carburetors. They have entered the auto hobby with sport compacts & Mustangs being the dominant cars. All of these cars feature over head cam motors and fuel injection. these younger enthusiasts are much more familiar with the modular V8, which is why I predict cammer motor swaps will become the dominant swap at some point in the future. It is also the reason I recommend the cammer swap to the younger guys here on the DTIC.

Wes makes a good analogy, the push rod V8s are brutes, they vibrate & snarl. The cammer purrs. Its quiter, vibrates less, and is much more refined. It certainly adds a modern feel to the Pantera, one could also argue it is more characteristic of a motor that belongs in an Italian "exotic" car.

I think its wonderful we have the choices we do.

the cowboy from Hell

quote:

Ford went backwards when they designed the modular motor. That is just not the case. It is an evolutionary superior motor to earlier efforts.

George .. I hope I was not miss understood .. I feel quiet the oposite that the earlier Cammers / Mod motors were too far ahead of their time .. the SOHC with some continued development ... is bascially what your seing today. Look close at the block ... all I'm saying is they didnt re invent the wheel here. For me a Mod motor is my next build but I also realize I'm going to have to set aside a lot of time. That conversion is going to cost some money to fit it in a Pantera.

One question ? does the ZF bolt up to it ??

Ron

YES!

George,

What's the general feeling among Pantera enthusiasts regarding modifications and values? Are we starting to see values decline the more we move away from the original configurations? I have noticed several clean, original Panteras bringing some decent prices lately. I understand that certain modification lend themselves well to reliability but there has to be a point of diminishing return. Any opinions? Examples? I spent over $130,000 on what I thought was a class act, Ferrari, Vette, Porsche beater only to see a return of less than half of that on a literally newly completed restoration. Wes

Wes,

From the picture I see of your car its a fine modified version of the Pantera and I'm starting on a restomod myself... but I have to say I have pondered the thought of not altering this car beyind the point of no return. As seen in many fine examples of 100% stock vehicles they bring in big bucks. Customized vehicles usually are in the eye of the beholder and on occation they bring nice money.

Funny thing I noticed that Street Rods bring in big money .. I cant see that !

But the Pantera has shocked us in there values which has been good and bad .. lately its been good.

Ron

Certain modifications are welcomed by buyers, there's somewhat of an approved "list" in buyer's minds. Such as improved cooling systems, 17" Campy clone wheels, improved seats, brake modifications, gas shocks, electronic igntions, leather interiors. Even modifications to the body that upgrade it to GT4, GT5 or GT5-S status are OK, so long as they are done well.

Other modifications hurt the price of the car, such as body modifications outside GT4, GT5 & GT5-S conversions, or odd ball colors (like a pink Pantera).I recently appraised a Pantera $10K below its possible market value because the owner had installed louvers over the engine compartment in the rear deck and was runnng hot rod wheels (Coddington) instead of Campy clones. these are "hot rod" modifications, buyers want their Pantera to look like an Italian sports car, not a hot rod. That car would never sell at its possible market value with the louvers & wheels.

The majority of shoppers want to be able to drive the car on the street, so modifications that hinder the ability to do that will make the car hard to sell, and the price will plummit. This includes rough idling highly modified motors, heavy clutches, roll cages, bundle of snakes exhausts (can't use the trunk tub), deletion of air conditioning, etc...

The prices of GT5 & GT5-S Panteras remain about $20K above the Ford era Panteras. Hall Super Panteras run about the same price as a GT5 or GT5-S in similar condition. Normally the Super Panteras & GT5/GT5-S prices represent a high water mark. Seldom does any Pantera sell above those prices. That means $70K is about it right now, regardless of how much money has been put into the vehicle. That is the brick wall you ran into with your last Pantera Wes.

Later model Panteras are less desireable in states with smog inspection laws. In those states, like California, many buyers would prefer a GT5 or GT5-S conversion over the real thing because the older '71 to '74 cars are smog exempt. Of course, we have our share of GT5 & GT5-S Panteras here in California. The owners have either left the motor stock, or have found a way around the laws. I know of a Longchamp the owner would like to sell that I would love to own, hassling with the smog laws is what keeps me from persuing it.


George