4 engines in 2 months

V8G,

that has got to have you pulling your hair out, sorry to read of your troubles.

Here's 6 questions for you:

Is it the same 2 cylinders failing each time?

If so, which 2?

What is the nature of the failure; i.e. spun bearings, hole in piston, dropped valves, etc?

Is that diagnosis based on what the mechanic has told you, or have you seen the torn down engine with your own eyes?

What components are being carried over from the first motor to the next?

How do the motors run, while they are running?

Your friend on the DTBB, George

George-
They say ALL components have been changed. I don't believe them. I mean new engine block...EVERYTHING!

My analysis would be hot spot on the heads causing a guide to stick, the rocker throws (you can really hear the rattle when it goes) then the vales bend.

It seems to be the same cylinders..Again, something must be carried over.

I would love to talk openly about this but the people doing the work farm the engine work out so i am not totally sure they are at fault (and I don't want to bash here).

We might get our work done at the same place sometimes...enough said

The engine does run strong, but it has gone out the first 20-30 minutes each time! Differnt RPMs, different speeds. no consistancy when it goes out. Only that it fails very quickly.

Feel free to call my cell 858-705-4772. My fingures can't keep up.
I do appreciate the help!

Seems like the only thing constant that has anything to do with the engine is the headers. And I sure can't think of any way a header could cause engine failure.

Wait, what about intake? Dumping too much or not enough fuel into the same two cylinders?

Could it be a balance issue? Damper, flywheel both checked out and proper for the engine?

Is this a Cleveland? If so, where do they keep getting new blocks? If you question their 'new' statement, ask to see the dated receipts. Are they blueprinting this each time?

They must be good folks to keep doing it over and over, or are they soaking you for more $$$$ each time?

Larry

Its the engine builder .... 4 engines ?? NO WAY ... I have put them together in my garage and never had that kind of failure. If they are totally being torn down and it keeps happening...bent valves ??? The valves are sticking in the guides .... either they are too tight or the plugs are too hot.... not enough cooling in the heads ... gaskets ?? No way troubleshoot this over the E NET. have to see the engine. Sorry I dont believe 4 engines. Not possible after the second I would ahve gone to another BUILDER.

One more thing check the rockers. the 351c 400m and boss 302 all have slightly different rockers. They look the same but the slot is different. Also I had this issue once when the plugs in my 428cj were too hot valves hit the psitons.

Is anyone checking piston to valve clearances here ???

intake manifold had a crack. Two cylinders running lean...GOT BURNED!!

We'll see if this fixes the problem.

I appreciate the responses so far.

got my fingers crossed for you.

Well, after 5, yes 5 engines the problem was the water pump. There was a slight miss match in that the pump used was missing a port. The factory forgot to drill the @$@&^$ thing out!!

So I finshed mr Grp4 conversion last night and everything is running smoothly so far. I will post pics but it still needs paint and I need to fiil in the side markers and bumper holes.

I can finally join you guys on the road. See you out there!

Are you refering to the recirculation port? The one on the right side of the engine. Some aftermarket pumps do not have the recirc port drilled but it doesn't seem to cause a problem. What I noticed in 40,000 miles with a wiend (sp)pump was that the temperature gauge would fluctuate as the thermostat opened and closed. Other than that there was never any problem other than at RPM above 5,000 it tended to blow out the gasket. Solved that problem by going to a modified windsor pump with a back plate.
Good luck,
Forest

quote:

Originally posted by V8 Growl:
Well, after 5, yes 5 engines the problem was the water pump. There was a slight miss match in that the pump used was missing a port. The factory forgot to drill the @$@&^$ thing out!!
I'll be damned!

I can finally join you guys on the road. See you out there! BITCHEN!

I'm happy & relieved for you my friend! I was wondering when we would finally read the good news. JEEZ!

quote:

Originally posted by forestg:
Are you refering to the recirculation port? The one on the right side of the engine. Some aftermarket pumps do not have the recirc port drilled but it doesn't seem to cause a problem. What I noticed in 40,000 miles with a wiend (sp)pump was that the temperature gauge would fluctuate as the thermostat opened and closed. Other than that there was never any problem other than at RPM above 5,000 it tended to blow out the gasket. Solved that problem by going to a modified windsor pump with a back plate.
Good luck,
Forest

If you are running a thermostat, the motor MUST have some way to recirculate coolant, bypassing the radiator, when the thermostat is closed (motor is cold).

On some cars, the heater core flows coolant full time. Not so with the Pantera, our heater cores only flow coolant when the valve is open.

The other way to recirc coolant is with a bypass. On the Windsors, that's the little hose with the 90 degree bend between the water pump & intake manifold. The Windsor bypass flows full time, never shuts off, therefore it is intentionally a small passage.

The Cleveland bypass passage is internal to the block, it's the passage below the thermostat that leads to the passage missing in the Weiand water pump. Ford engineers designed the Cleveland coolant system this way because they can recirc more coolant during warm up, this speeds up the warm up time, prevents steam pockets from forming in the cylinder heads and allows the motor to warm up more evenly. It also means if you install the wrong thermostat, the car will have a tendency to over heat under heavy loads, because too much coolant is bypassing the radiator FULL TIME.

Here's the problem with the Weiand water pump on a Cleveland motor. You have a thermostat installed in the block, as normal. You are also running the Weiand water pump that defeats the motors ability to recirc coolant internally. Your heater valve is also closed. In this situation, when the motor is cold & the thermostat is closed, the water pump CANNOT pump coolant, it is pumping against a dead head. This is not a good situation, and poor engineering. This is why you'll never read me recommend the Weiand pump.

The Weiand pump must be used with a Windsor thermostat, AND some method to allow the engine to recirc coolant, or with no thermostat at all.

Your friend on the DTBB, George

Are we talking about the WEIAND water pump again? No one mentioned a name, but I'll bet ya'...
Also, I doubt this applies here but it could save someone an engine in the future. If you run factory iron heads, they don't hold enough oil in the valve covers to cool the valve springs properly under competition conditions. For some reason valve springs in a Cleveland run hotter then others engines.
I had heard that even the 'high-port' heads (yes George that includes my A3 heads) were having problems. When you add quick drain back features for the oil it accentuates the problem. I personally have not had the problem but this was for NASCAR type useage.
I believe that the Yates heads attempted to deal with the problem by changing the pitch of the drain back "gutters" under the valve cover to puddle more oil against the valve covers (like 2" of it) and submerge the spring seat in oil. The Yates heads also raised the valve cover "curb". I heard that it seems to have reduced the spring breakage problem.
The "sprinkler head" valve covers are also pointed in that direction. I don't know if they work. I personally haven't had a spring breakage problem (yet).
I will say that I have observed on my own cars the necessaty to "glue" the covers down with silicone. The cork gaskets leaked with both my A and B heads (never had a C head). That indicates to me that the heads are holding more oil against the covers then the iron heads do.
I hope this is useful to some of you out there.
I have to pass this stuff on when I have a period of lucidaty.