Gentlemen,
I'm thinking about building a 408 stroker Cleveland from the ashes of my 377. The question is, how many miles can these things live? I drive a lot and would like to get 50,000 miles out of it if possible?
Thanks,
Art
Original Post
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Art,
If the thing is assembled very cautiously, if the motor is not in too wild a state of tune, if the best parts go into its assembly, if the reciprocating assembly is dynamically balanced, if the ignition & fuel system are calibrated properly on a dyno, a motor can last a very long time.
The question you may not have thought of, how over-stressed are the parts you plan to re-use? How close are they to failing already?
cowboy from hell
If the thing is assembled very cautiously, if the motor is not in too wild a state of tune, if the best parts go into its assembly, if the reciprocating assembly is dynamically balanced, if the ignition & fuel system are calibrated properly on a dyno, a motor can last a very long time.
The question you may not have thought of, how over-stressed are the parts you plan to re-use? How close are they to failing already?
cowboy from hell
Art, how are you going to drive that motor? A motor will last a lot longer at 3000 rpm than at 7000 rpm.
Richard T.
Richard T.
Well, ask youself why the original manufacturer never offered them even in high performance production vehicles?
Personally I think that the most important factor is the owner.
If you are going to flog it without mercy and go 8,000 miles on the best 79 cent oil money can buy I don't think there is much hope.
I don't think it would be a great idea to use a supercharger or nitrous oxide on it either. But that's just me.
I think throwing matches in a gasolene tank is a bad idea too but apparently I could be in the minority.
Also, it probably doesn't make much difference but I'd rather use a standard bore block with a stroker. I think it is the walls of the block that are the weak link here.
The current cranks, rods and pistons, even the cheapo chinese ones in most cases are better then factory racing componenets of the 60s were.
It is just a function of the era. This stuff is plentiful and cheap and very high quality.
You're on your own though as far as the "revabilaty" of a 408. I would tend to think it would feel a lot like a 390HP Ford or maybe even like a 389 Pontiac would, definately not like a SB.
Personally I think that the most important factor is the owner.
If you are going to flog it without mercy and go 8,000 miles on the best 79 cent oil money can buy I don't think there is much hope.
I don't think it would be a great idea to use a supercharger or nitrous oxide on it either. But that's just me.
I think throwing matches in a gasolene tank is a bad idea too but apparently I could be in the minority.
Also, it probably doesn't make much difference but I'd rather use a standard bore block with a stroker. I think it is the walls of the block that are the weak link here.
The current cranks, rods and pistons, even the cheapo chinese ones in most cases are better then factory racing componenets of the 60s were.
It is just a function of the era. This stuff is plentiful and cheap and very high quality.
You're on your own though as far as the "revabilaty" of a 408. I would tend to think it would feel a lot like a 390HP Ford or maybe even like a 389 Pontiac would, definately not like a SB.
> Well, ask youself why the original manufacturer never offered them even
> in high performance production vehicles?
Actually they did. Take the FE Ford engine series. Started out life
as 332 cubic inches with a 3.3" stroke. Stroke increased to 3.5",
then 3.78", and finally 3.98". Combine the stroke of the 428 with
the bore of the 427 and you could get 447 to 454 cubes. Dad's ran 454 cube version ran fine for 90,000 miles.
Dan Jones
> in high performance production vehicles?
Actually they did. Take the FE Ford engine series. Started out life
as 332 cubic inches with a 3.3" stroke. Stroke increased to 3.5",
then 3.78", and finally 3.98". Combine the stroke of the 428 with
the bore of the 427 and you could get 447 to 454 cubes. Dad's ran 454 cube version ran fine for 90,000 miles.
Dan Jones
There was never a factory Ford 454. You're thinking of the other guys.
There was never a 351 in a 8.0 block.
There was never a 377,408,415 or 427 in a 9.2 Cleveland or 9.5 Windsor block.
I'm not saying they're no good, or there shouldn't have been, I'm not stupid. I'm just saying Ford didn't want to waranty them. Reason enough.
There was never a 351 in a 8.0 block.
There was never a 377,408,415 or 427 in a 9.2 Cleveland or 9.5 Windsor block.
I'm not saying they're no good, or there shouldn't have been, I'm not stupid. I'm just saying Ford didn't want to waranty them. Reason enough.
This may open a can of worms ..but arent we talking about LOW rod ratios and HIGH rod angles which cause wear and stress on the side of cylinder walls .. in our case it seems to accur where you take a 4.0 bore and increase the stroke and rod length and the ring pack becomes more compact and even at time intersects into the oil rings ( which some believe has no impact on oil useage ..LOL ) the psiton is shorter ( some believe the shorter the piston the shorter the skirt .. creates a mass amount of stress on the walls and at some piont in a MAX STROKER that piston wants to go thru the side of the wall rather then up .. DEPENDABILITY IS DEFINATELY COMPROMISED AND YOU REACH A LIMIT ON HOW FAR YOU CAN STROKE A MOTOR BEFORE SOME COMONENT IS SACRIFICED.
a 1.5 is the lowest rod ratio and a 408 is a 1.53.
Ron
a 1.5 is the lowest rod ratio and a 408 is a 1.53.
Ron
Isn't accurr= occur like short for occurance? LOL Sorry I just felt like being a smarta##
Jeff
Jeff
You mean occurrence? 
George,
I'm thinking about going with a Scat rotating assembly for the 408 stroker. If I go that route, the things I can think of that I would like to re-use would be the hydraulic roller cam and lifters, the block, the distributor drive gear that looks good, and the timing chain/gear. These parts only have 13,000 miles on them. I suppose I should replace the oil pump since metal made its way to the pan?
Thanks,
Art
I'm thinking about going with a Scat rotating assembly for the 408 stroker. If I go that route, the things I can think of that I would like to re-use would be the hydraulic roller cam and lifters, the block, the distributor drive gear that looks good, and the timing chain/gear. These parts only have 13,000 miles on them. I suppose I should replace the oil pump since metal made its way to the pan?
Thanks,
Art
quote:Originally posted by Cowboy from Hell:
Art,
If the thing is assembled very cautiously, if the motor is not in too wild a state of tune, if the best parts go into its assembly, if the reciprocating assembly is dynamically balanced, if the ignition & fuel system are calibrated properly on a dyno, a motor can last a very long time.
The question you may not have thought of, how over-stressed are the parts you plan to re-use? How close are they to failing already?
cowboy from hell
Richard,
I see no need to exceed 6000-6200 rpm. 6000 rpm should be about 180 mph in my car, that should probably be fast enough.
Thanks,
Art
I see no need to exceed 6000-6200 rpm. 6000 rpm should be about 180 mph in my car, that should probably be fast enough.
Thanks,
Art
quote:Originally posted by RichardT:
Art, how are you going to drive that motor? A motor will last a lot longer at 3000 rpm than at 7000 rpm.
Richard T.
Art, this may not help, but if you want big inches AND reliability, Ford Raceing makes a crate engine of 602 cubic inches and it has a one year warrenty. It is a little bit on the large and heavy side however. 
> There was never a factory Ford 454. You're thinking of the other guys.
Read what I said "Combine the stroke of the 428 with the bore of the 427
and you could get 447 to 454 cubes. Dad's 454 cube version ran fine for
90,000 miles." Ford built FE's from 332 to 428 cubic inches but it
is common to combine the 428 crank with the 427 bock and get 454 cubic
inches (447 is standard bore, 454 is 0.030"). Dad ran his in a '69
Fairlane Cobra.
> There was never a 351 in a 8.0 block.
Who said there was?
> There was never a 377,408,415 or 427 in a 9.2 Cleveland or 9.5
> Windsor block.
Ford did build 2 different strokes in 9.2" deck: 3" and 3.5".
From that perspective, the 351 is a stroker to begin with.
In any event, strokes from 3" to 4" inches are just points on
a continuum.
Dan Jones
Read what I said "Combine the stroke of the 428 with the bore of the 427
and you could get 447 to 454 cubes. Dad's 454 cube version ran fine for
90,000 miles." Ford built FE's from 332 to 428 cubic inches but it
is common to combine the 428 crank with the 427 bock and get 454 cubic
inches (447 is standard bore, 454 is 0.030"). Dad ran his in a '69
Fairlane Cobra.
> There was never a 351 in a 8.0 block.
Who said there was?
> There was never a 377,408,415 or 427 in a 9.2 Cleveland or 9.5
> Windsor block.
Ford did build 2 different strokes in 9.2" deck: 3" and 3.5".
From that perspective, the 351 is a stroker to begin with.
In any event, strokes from 3" to 4" inches are just points on
a continuum.
Dan Jones
The warranty sure would be nice! But due to the weight and physical size, I don't want to go the big block route. I'm also not crazy about the angle of the dangle when it comes to the half shafts. At a high rate of speed, I'd be praying those things wouldn't let go!
Thanks for the suggestion,
Art
Thanks for the suggestion,
Art
quote:Originally posted by DeTom:
Art, this may not help, but if you want big inches AND reliability, Ford Raceing makes a crate engine of 602 cubic inches and it has a one year warrenty. It is a little bit on the large and heavy side however.
Brad,
I really want to stay Cleveland based this time around. Maybe after the next time, "she gets all blowed up", I'll reconsider? I believe that the Windsor sits a little taller and I don't want to be changing a bunch of stuff, though the extra cubes would be nice.
Thanks Man,
Art
I really want to stay Cleveland based this time around. Maybe after the next time, "she gets all blowed up", I'll reconsider? I believe that the Windsor sits a little taller and I don't want to be changing a bunch of stuff, though the extra cubes would be nice.
Thanks Man,
Art
quote:
Dan,
Was there more meat left in your Dad's block than there would be in the 408 stroker? I think someone suggested that with the 408 stroker, the long stroke and the thin cylinder walls combined with a short piston would promote additional wear at the base of the cylinder. Would a thicker cylinder wall affect the wear at the base of the cylinder? If in fact the 408 does wear the base of the cylinder more than say the 377, what are the symptoms? I'm guessing more oil consumption and perhaps a loss of compression? Even with these symptoms, does that mean the engine would actually break sooner than the 377, or is it just going to get tired sooner?
Thank you Dan,
Art
Was there more meat left in your Dad's block than there would be in the 408 stroker? I think someone suggested that with the 408 stroker, the long stroke and the thin cylinder walls combined with a short piston would promote additional wear at the base of the cylinder. Would a thicker cylinder wall affect the wear at the base of the cylinder? If in fact the 408 does wear the base of the cylinder more than say the 377, what are the symptoms? I'm guessing more oil consumption and perhaps a loss of compression? Even with these symptoms, does that mean the engine would actually break sooner than the 377, or is it just going to get tired sooner?
Thank you Dan,
Art
quote:Originally posted by Daniel_Jones:
> There was never a factory Ford 454. You're thinking of the other guys.
Read what I said "Combine the stroke of the 428 with the bore of the 427
and you could get 447 to 454 cubes. Dad's 454 cube version ran fine for
90,000 miles." Ford built FE's from 332 to 428 cubic inches but it
is common to combine the 428 crank with the 427 bock and get 454 cubic
inches (447 is standard bore, 454 is 0.030"). Dad ran his in a '69
Fairlane Cobra.
> There was never a 351 in a 8.0 block.
Who said there was?
> There was never a 377,408,415 or 427 in a 9.2 Cleveland or 9.5
> Windsor block.
Ford did build 2 different strokes in 9.2" deck: 3" and 3.5".
From that perspective, the 351 is a stroker to begin with.
In any event, strokes from 3" to 4" inches are just points on
a continuum.
Dan Jones
No, no, read what I said. You wanna argue go else where.
DOH!! Wait a minute Art, I just remembered. Gary in INdiana built up a 434 cubic inch stroker motor by starting with the 400M block. If I remember right he got some big numbers on a mild build. It would probably last 100K miles because it is all under-stressed. It uses regular Cleveland everything!! Ask him about it. He seemed to be real happy with it.
DeTom
DeTom
DeTom,
I'll have to look into that. It just seems that I remember hearing that the 400M wasn't much of a performance engine, and that there were not a lot of peformance parts for it, or something like that? If it has the 9.5 deck height, that would probably be a problem for me? Though I am considering running this engine with no air cleaner if I have to, in order to keep an air cleaner from blocking my view out the rear view mirror.
Thanks for the new idea,
Art
I'll have to look into that. It just seems that I remember hearing that the 400M wasn't much of a performance engine, and that there were not a lot of peformance parts for it, or something like that? If it has the 9.5 deck height, that would probably be a problem for me? Though I am considering running this engine with no air cleaner if I have to, in order to keep an air cleaner from blocking my view out the rear view mirror.
Thanks for the new idea,
Art
quote:Originally posted by DeTom:
DOH!! Wait a minute Art, I just remembered. Gary in INdiana built up a 434 cubic inch stroker motor by starting with the 400M block. If I remember right he got some big numbers on a mild build. It would probably last 100K miles because it is all under-stressed. It uses regular Cleveland everything!! Ask him about it. He seemed to be real happy with it.
DeTom