> I'll have to look into that. It just seems that I remember hearing that the
> 400M wasn't much of a performance engine, and that there were not a lot of
> peformance parts for it, or something like that? If it has the 9.5 deck
> height, that would probably be a problem for me?
It has a 10.297" deck height, about the same as a 460 but has the bore
spacing of a Cleveland. It's essentially a tall deck Cleveland. Comes
with long rods and a 4" stroke and can accept 4.25" strokes.
> Though I am considering running this engine with no air cleaner if I have
> to, in order to keep an air cleaner from blocking my view out the rear
> view mirror.
You're going to run no air cleaner and you're worried about a little
faster cylinder wear from stroking?
Dan Jones
Dan, he could run an IR cross ram kind of manifold. He would have to fabricate it from tubing though. THat way he could have real long runners to magnify the torque output of the engine, but not have the height associated with long IR injection tubes. Remember the old Dodge 390s with the cross-ram manifolds??? They produced more torque than horsepower.
Thank you Dan,
Of course I would like to have it all, but since I can't, I'm just trying to find a compromise I can live with.
Art
Of course I would like to have it all, but since I can't, I'm just trying to find a compromise I can live with.
Art
quote:Originally posted by Daniel_Jones:
> I'll have to look into that. It just seems that I remember hearing that the
> 400M wasn't much of a performance engine, and that there were not a lot of
> peformance parts for it, or something like that? If it has the 9.5 deck
> height, that would probably be a problem for me?
It has a 10.297" deck height, about the same as a 460 but has the bore
spacing of a Cleveland. It's essentially a tall deck Cleveland. Comes
with long rods and a 4" stroke and can accept 4.25" strokes.
> Though I am considering running this engine with no air cleaner if I have
> to, in order to keep an air cleaner from blocking my view out the rear
> view mirror.
You're going to run no air cleaner and you're worried about a little
faster cylinder wear from stroking?
Dan Jones
> Dan, he could run an IR cross ram kind of manifold. He would have to
> fabricate it from tubing though. That way he could have real long
> runners to magnify the torque output of the engine, but not have the
> height associated with long IR injection tubes. Remember the old Dodge
> 390s with the cross-ram manifolds??? They produced more torque than
> horsepower.
Why would he want to increase torque at the expense of horsepower?
I thought he was looking for RPM? My 407 (4.1" bore by 3.85" stroke)
liked the short stacks (minor trade-off in torque for meaningful increase
in horsepower).
Dan Jones
> fabricate it from tubing though. That way he could have real long
> runners to magnify the torque output of the engine, but not have the
> height associated with long IR injection tubes. Remember the old Dodge
> 390s with the cross-ram manifolds??? They produced more torque than
> horsepower.
Why would he want to increase torque at the expense of horsepower?
I thought he was looking for RPM? My 407 (4.1" bore by 3.85" stroke)
liked the short stacks (minor trade-off in torque for meaningful increase
in horsepower).
Dan Jones
make a motor that will survive
> use good parts
> machine the block accurately (index the block)
> dynamically balance the reciprocating assembly
> assemble the parts to Ford or manufacturer clearance or tolerance specifications
> have the ignition & fuel system tuned professionally on a chassis dyno
If the motor has "issues" like your previous motor did, it will fail just like your previous motor.
A motor that is "blue printed" as I have decsribed is capable of sustaining far more abuse than a motor built less precisely. I can't over-emphasize the importance of the block's machine work, the reciprocating assembly's balance and the state of tune in making the motor durable.
An extreme example of the destructiveness of a poorly tuned motor is that DeTom's motor spit the crank out the bottom because his son had crossed a pair of plug wires.
To improve the Clevo's lubrication system you'll need to bush all sixteen lifter bores and set the clearance between lifter and bores at 0.0007" (that's not a misprint). The tight clearance prevents the loss of oil between the lifters and their bores, and forces the oil to flow where it is needed, to the main journals. Install the high pressure oil pump spring (to keep the oil pump's relief valve closed), a good oil pan, and the Fram HP1 oil filter to avoid bursting the oil filter with the higher pressures. Then run external oil drainback hoses between the valve covers and oil pan.
Purchase your crank kit from Mark McKeown, he's playing some tricks with the wrist pin placement in his pistons, one of the tricks that makes his motors durable, and a good reason to just bite the bullet and purchase his crate motor (he bushes the lifter bores as I described as normal practice).
> rock and roll
> use good parts
> machine the block accurately (index the block)
> dynamically balance the reciprocating assembly
> assemble the parts to Ford or manufacturer clearance or tolerance specifications
> have the ignition & fuel system tuned professionally on a chassis dyno
If the motor has "issues" like your previous motor did, it will fail just like your previous motor.
A motor that is "blue printed" as I have decsribed is capable of sustaining far more abuse than a motor built less precisely. I can't over-emphasize the importance of the block's machine work, the reciprocating assembly's balance and the state of tune in making the motor durable.
An extreme example of the destructiveness of a poorly tuned motor is that DeTom's motor spit the crank out the bottom because his son had crossed a pair of plug wires.
To improve the Clevo's lubrication system you'll need to bush all sixteen lifter bores and set the clearance between lifter and bores at 0.0007" (that's not a misprint). The tight clearance prevents the loss of oil between the lifters and their bores, and forces the oil to flow where it is needed, to the main journals. Install the high pressure oil pump spring (to keep the oil pump's relief valve closed), a good oil pan, and the Fram HP1 oil filter to avoid bursting the oil filter with the higher pressures. Then run external oil drainback hoses between the valve covers and oil pan.
Purchase your crank kit from Mark McKeown, he's playing some tricks with the wrist pin placement in his pistons, one of the tricks that makes his motors durable, and a good reason to just bite the bullet and purchase his crate motor (he bushes the lifter bores as I described as normal practice).
> rock and roll
....and dont use USED PARTS.
Ron
Ron
Not sure how long a 408 will live, but I can tell you that the 377 is the quietest engine I have had in the pantera. No piston noise at all as compared to the 351. I must say that a quieter engine implies less stress on the pistons and less stress on the cylinders. It is also quiet at high rpm. And it actually sounds like it likes to rev just like new modern engines. The 351 sounded like it was ready to explode at 5000 rpm.
quote:I thought he was looking for RPM?
No that was me that wanted a high reving 351. He wants a durable engine, so he would limit his rpm to 5500 or so. I figure he could change his rear axle ratio to 3.26 to one and still run high speeds, as long as he was making 700 foot pounds of torque.
Can the 400M block go to a 5" stroke?? That would be 490 cubes. Nothing to sneeze at. Could probably pull stumps outta the ground with that one.
quote:An extreme example of the destructiveness of a poorly tuned motor is that DeTom's motor spit the crank out the bottom because his son had crossed a pair of plug wires.
Well only part of it went out the bottom, most of the crank went out the side of the oil pan and made a huge hole. STill more of the crank went up and busted the camshaft into several pieces. One piston kinda froze up into the wall and a couple of the rods looked like pretzles. I still have a few of the more interesting shapeed pieces in a box. If you want, I could take pictures of it and post it here. My drag race buddy said that was the worst blowed up engine he had seen in twenty years of raceing, and I wasn't even trying to blow it up or nothing. Imagine if I had set out to do it.
Art, what exactly happened to your 377 and how many miles did you have on it?
Danno
Danno
Thats exactly whats being assembled for me a 377. 351W 9.2 SVO block, SCAT 3.75 Super light crank, 6.125 Steel H beams, C302B heads and IR EFI.
I think very conservative combination cant imagine where a problem could lie with that ??
Ron
I think very conservative combination cant imagine where a problem could lie with that ??
Ron
Danno,
My engine had about 13,000 miles on it. Here is what I think happened. My engine was experiencing detonation due to a compression ratio that was too high for my needs. The CR was 10 to 1 with closed chamber iron heads that had subsequently been milled another .020. The detonation produced excess heat in the head which caused an exhaust valve to stick. When the valve stuck, I thought the noise I heard was due to a loose spark plug. Unable to find someone with a spark plug socket out in the desert, I tried to limp to the first place I could find one. I never made it that far. After 30-40 miles of limping toward Vegas, the head of the valve broke off destroying my piston. Like I say, this is how I think it went down. The new engine will probably have a higher CR, but with aluminum heads, which should make it more detonation resistant. I'm thinking around 10.5 to 1. Wish me luck! And many thanks to all of you that have responded.
Art
My engine had about 13,000 miles on it. Here is what I think happened. My engine was experiencing detonation due to a compression ratio that was too high for my needs. The CR was 10 to 1 with closed chamber iron heads that had subsequently been milled another .020. The detonation produced excess heat in the head which caused an exhaust valve to stick. When the valve stuck, I thought the noise I heard was due to a loose spark plug. Unable to find someone with a spark plug socket out in the desert, I tried to limp to the first place I could find one. I never made it that far. After 30-40 miles of limping toward Vegas, the head of the valve broke off destroying my piston. Like I say, this is how I think it went down. The new engine will probably have a higher CR, but with aluminum heads, which should make it more detonation resistant. I'm thinking around 10.5 to 1. Wish me luck! And many thanks to all of you that have responded.
Art
quote:Originally posted by Danno:
Art, what exactly happened to your 377 and how many miles did you have on it?
Danno
Art, thanks for the detailed description. I suppose the desert heat didn't help things.I could be wrong but I believe with the 408 the piston wrist pin finds itself located furthur up in the piston ring cluster.You might also find a little more piston slap in the bottom of the stroke.
Whatever you choose to build I wish you all the best,
Danno
Whatever you choose to build I wish you all the best,
Danno
quote:Originally posted by Danno:
...You might also find a little more piston slap in the bottom of the stroke...
there's not much left for the piston to "slap" against at BDC with a 4.00" stroke, the piston pulled quite a ways out of the bore.
cowboy from hell