427 side oiler

Conservatively speaking, IMO, signifigantly more the $10,000 each fresh. It depends on the "part numbers" on the engine components.
There are a couple of FE Panteras running around.
I would venture to say that you should inquire with Dennis at Pantera Performance Center in CO about the "kit" components.
He's done a few of these.

What is the side oiler part of it? Should The engines have alum intakes and other parts, or could they come plain (in this case they were in a 50' wood boat)?

Is this a salt water boat? I could be wrong but don't boats use the salt water to cool their motors? If so I would be leary about the condition of the engine blocks.

Dan

quote:

Originally posted by Throttle man:
What is the side oiler part of it? Should The engines have alum intakes and other parts, or could they come plain (in this case they were in a 50' wood boat)?

The term "side oiler" refers to the location of the main oil gallery on the block. It is on the left side of the block.
It was introduced initially as an improved durabilaty block for high performance use.
It was first used on the 427 SOHC engines.
The reality is that it is better but not terrably signifigantly but every little bit helped in racing.

Since they were generally sold only in bare block form virtually any combination of FE heads and intakes could be assembled to it.

There is a guy in Idaho with a Black Pantera that I believe has a side oiler wedged in there.

Throttle man ..couple things to keep in mind when dealing in FE blocks that come out of boats ... one rotates in reverse and when salt water flows thru a cast iron block it eats the inside ... so cylinder walls are thin. its best to get them from a boat used in a river or fresh water. The blocks I always found were CENTER oilers ...that came before SIDE oilers. The block usually cast on the rear will say 427 HI PERF. or casting numbers under the starter. A bunch that I found were 410's in CRIS CRAFTS.

Ron

Boat engines were designed for durability. They were not standard blocks. Usually they were higher in nickel than car engines. They also often had forged crank, rods, and pistons because boats were expected to put out full powwer for extended periods of time. Just think about a simple 302. In a 210 hp stern drive, you may be running at 4200 rpm at 210 hp for an hour. Most car engines are only part time at high hp and then back down to 30 hp for cruise.

One way to tell if they are side oilers is to look at the side of the block. It should have 5 bolts on each side for the cross bolted main bearings and on one side (Left?) it will have a bulge the full length of the block. This is the oil passage on the "Side" of the engine that feeds the main bearings.

Virtually all seawater engines use heat exchangers with antifreeze, so the blocks are typically less corroded inside than fresh-water cooled engines. It premature to deem it a problem just because its used in salt.

I thought he said 50' wood boat .. be careful not all them were cooled thru heat exchangers ..at least not the cris crafts that were 40 - 50 years old that Ive seen. The heat exchangers came later in years to eliminate oil and fuel mixing with sea or river water.

Boat engines are and were automotive engines only difference is on some like you said had internal part differences .... Ive never seen a desigination where FORD listed casting # that read BOAT ENGINE ??? I believe if you find a 427 side oiler your way ahead of the game and its a good find.

There used to be LOTS of 427 side-oiler blocks in crab boats here in Maryland. The person that gets to the the crabbing waters gets the catch. They use a water to water cooling system, I.E. the salt water flows over the radiator which is submerged in a tank. The radiator contains a standard 50/50 mix of water/antifreeze. However, as the fleet diminished through the years, the Cobra kit car folks found about them and snatched them up. Still, you can occasionally find one or two in the papers.....

For the more affluent amongst us, there are two sources for brand new 427 FE blocks. You can buy anything from bare block all the way up to complete crate engines. They also come in all aluminum configuration, which weighs even less than a standard Cleveland.

The boat is freshwater, it was built in the late 40's or early 50's. It has sat near me on barrels for years at a boat shop. It was re outfitted at some time .Not all twin engine boats have a counter reverse rotation engine, some are done with the out drives like my Carver. The fire dept burned the boat the other day. I am going to verify what they are, as far as what they are worth in unknown condition, what would you expect to pay? $500? $1000.00? ??

A used side oiler block is easy worth $3500. Get them for whatever you can.
A $500 offer each is likely to loose everything.
I would approach the owner and ask how much he wants.
Then you have a chance of getting them. If he says that he knows what they are and he wants $10,000 each then the game is over anyway.

Exactly .. go there and ask what he wants for them .. I picked up 2 SOHC 427's for 3800.00 and sold them for ?????? so believe me they are out there and to us they are worth money .. to others they are BOAT ANCHORS.. LOL

Ron

I am going over there, I will post what I find or buy. So what I am looking for is a bulge on one side of the block for the side oiler part, and the mains have bolts also on the side of the block, and it should say 427 high performance, correct? Anything else? Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by Throttle man:
I am going over there, I will post what I find or buy. So what I am looking for is a bulge on one side of the block for the side oiler part, and the mains have bolts also on the side of the block, and it should say 427 high performance, correct? Anything else? Thanks

If it was me, I would look at the casting number first. It has to have side bolts through the block above the pan rails. It has to have the horizontal hump along the left side of the block with the allen plugs in each gallery.
There are a bunch of non-427 FE blocks that say 66-427 on them including certain 390 truck and industrial blocks.
They are not 427 blocks and cannot be bored out to the 427 bore.
Some of the casting numbers you will be looking for are: C5AE-D, C5AE-E, C5AE-H, C6AE-B, C6AE-C, C6AE-D, C7AE-A, C8AE-A, C8AE-B, C8AE-H.
There is also a marine casting of C6JE-B, C7JE-A and irrigation engine castings of C5JE-D and C7JE-E.
These numbers are all located in the block where the starter mounts.
The center oiler blocks are all C3, C4 and some C5 casting numbers.
The 68 "hydraulic lifter blocks" are the best for high performance use since they are cast with a higher nickle content and the bore cylinders have reinforced walls (almost square) for NASCAR useage.
The earlier blocks are all drilled for solid lifter use only. The oiling passages for hydraulic lifters are not drilled.
The 68 hydraulic block needs to have the passages blocked with threaded in allen plugs for high performance useage. Hydraulic lifter cams were not considered to be high performance (racing) cams back in those days since these engines were designed to last a 500 mile 8,000 rpm race in NASCAR, which was the primary intended use of the engine then.
DON'T SHOOT ME FOR STATING THIS. I CAN'T REWRITE HISTORY TO SUIT EVERYONES DESIRES.

If it has cross bolts on the side of the block .. grab it and run .. for our use in a PANTERA ..an FE will make enough Torque at low RPM to grenade the ZF.

Ron

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
If it has cross bolts on the side of the block .. grab it and run .. for our use in a PANTERA ..an FE will make enough Torque at low RPM to grenade the ZF.

Ron

I would think it would be a problem also.

Do you know what Dennis Quella did to the ZF, if anything to make it live longer?

Doug,

I'm in the process of researching that ... I'm told adding M1 Zf components.

An FE in a Pantera would be like a 427 in a COBRA .. one hell of a ride ... but it would take a lot of work ..because unlike the cobra with its hevay duty frame .. a BB would tare a Pantera apart .. I guess it could be done .. but would there be a meaning ful purpose ??? for Bling you could get 427 out of a 9.5 Windsor.

Oh well to each his own ...

Ron

427 is 427 no matter how you get there.
An FE 427 isn't anymore powerfull then a 427W.
I don't remember ever seeing the transaxle of a Mark II "40". I didn't say I didn't. I just don't remember seeing it. 500hp is 500hp no matter how you get there.

I do know that the Mark IV's didn't use a ZF.
I believe that the story is that Phil Remington had a transaxle built for it using Ford 4speed internal components because of durabilaty problems with the ZF.

I haven't read anything about folks blowing up the ZF with there 4xx's yet, have you?

No I have not heard of anyone blowing them up period ... do you think its a marketing tactic ??? LOL But under normal driving with 4XX plus cubes on the street ... whats the most you get a short burst of power for couple miles ... but if your road racing even at a club event .. its 20 mintue sessions.. Whta comes to mind is as I looked thru the history of the race Pantera's I see an awful lot of DNF's ...can anyone comment on WHY ?? was it horsepower torque on the ZF or was there other reason Pantera's DID NOT FINISH ??? lets just say thats been rumbling around in my thoughts for a while. LOL

Ron

THROTTLEMAN .. found a good book in auto zone today .. has all the part #'s your little heart could ever desire ... casting #s for blocks heads intakes distributors carberators intakes cranks rods alternators exhaust all for FORD"S

HIGH PERFORMANCE FORD ENGINE PARTS INTERCHANGE

You guys are a wealth of information! Thanks
Joey

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
No I have not heard of anyone blowing them up period ... do you think its a marketing tactic ??? LOL But under normal driving with 4XX plus cubes on the street ... whats the most you get a short burst of power for couple miles ... but if your road racing even at a club event .. its 20 mintue sessions.. Whta comes to mind is as I looked thru the history of the race Pantera's I see an awful lot of DNF's ...can anyone comment on WHY ?? was it horsepower torque on the ZF or was there other reason Pantera's DID NOT FINISH ??? lets just say thats been rumbling around in my thoughts for a while. LOL

Ron

I have heard it said that the biggest problem was lack of support. Detomaso had little or no racing money and Ford wasn't interested.
I think that there are always a lot of DNF's.
That's why the factories run so many cars in a single event.
Independents always had a tough time.

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
...as I looked thru the history of the race Pantera's I see an awful lot of DNF's ...can anyone comment on WHY...

The 351C race motors in the early 1970s were developing about 500 bhp, which is not enough to break the ZF. Keep in mind, 500 bhp was 7 liter big block territory in that era. Not bad for 351 cubes.

Bud Moore, good ol' NASCAR engine builder, built the motors for the first Gp4 Panteras. He was completely unfamiliar with the set up needed to race on European racing circuits. The European teams & mechanics were completely unfamiliar with the 351C motor, their early efforts at building 351C race motors were very unreliable. Exploring the race track capabilities of a mid-engine sports car chassis was a new thing in 1972. Race tire technology was also advancing at a fast rate in this period, the g-forces being developed were greater than what had been encountered in the past, especially in a low slung, mid-engine Pantera with 14" wide wheels in the rear. The motor needed a dry sump lube system for the type of g-forces encountered in European racing, but nobody realized it for about 2 seasons (1972, 1973). By the time they figured out the Pantera needed a dry sump, Porsche or Ferrari (forget which) was able to have the rules written so that dry sumps on the Pantera were banned for a couple of more seasons. When the rules finally allowed the Pantera teams to run the dry sump, there was no factory support, only privateer efforts. So you could say lack of budget was a problem too!

Your historic racer will need a dry sump oil system

cowboy from hell

George,

Thanks .. I see your point but whats throwing me is the SVRA Regs Specific for a Pantera is most unusual to say the least. If you look it up a Pantera can use either internal or external dry sumps, Webers, spoiler, aftermarket heads, roller cams, electronic ignition all of which is listed to be an HISTORICAL RACER of the Period. Brakes allowed are 11.5 +/- Tires 10" and 14:" wide sounds like an awful lot of lets say RACING equipment to FACTORY Car.

I guess its unfortunate that Detomaso's timing created hardship ... the GAS CRISIS of the 70's for a high dollar car ... must have been like selling snow balls in the summer trying to get racing sponsors for a small car co.

For me fortunate enough the block I'm using is a dry sump block ..wow now that worked out well .. eh.

Ron

I just looked at them. They are 427 Ford engines, with 300 hp on the valve covers. Both engines do have the bolts on the sides of the blocks for the main bearings. There is no bulge on the left or right side of the block that I could find. They do have an oil cooler line coming off the oil pans, but the pans probably won't work in a car (or a Pantera anyways). The boat and the engines are 1963 according to the boat shop owner. I couldn't find hardly any markings on them, there is quite a bit of stuff on them, the out drives and boat exhaust manifolds. The carbs looked like AFB's, and I didn't see any high performance parts on either engine. I asked him what he wanted for them & he said $2500 each, but said make an offer. Any idea what they are worth or are these just boat anchors?

They are probably '63 427 low riser center oilers.
At $2500 they are a so-so deal.
It has an iron, not steel crank. It has iron low riser heads and are not desireable. The connecting rods are nothing special. The most desireable piece is the block.
You can buy a new aftermarket side oiler block for $3200.
Why pay $2500 for a center oiler which may be junk?
Offer him $1500 for both.

I agree.

Thanks, I want to hear this stuff BEFORE I buy something!

I hope it helped.