These heads are for sale on ebay are they any good ? what will be a good price for them?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/A3-Pantera-aluminum-351-...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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> These heads are for sale on ebay are they any good?
Yes they are very good, particularly on larger displacement stroker motors.
BTW, the write up he borrowed from PanteraPlace is one that I did many moons
ago.
> what will be a good price for them?
They are easily worth $2500.
Dan Jones
Yes they are very good, particularly on larger displacement stroker motors.
BTW, the write up he borrowed from PanteraPlace is one that I did many moons
ago.
> what will be a good price for them?
They are easily worth $2500.
Dan Jones
Panhe,
What the heads are worth to you depends upon the motor you want to run them on, the displacement, the power band, the intended use of the car, etc.
Although they are good heads, they are not the best head for every application. And, acquiring an intake manifold for those heads can be an expensive pain in the rear.
A comment about the pricing of the motorsport heads, I observed a set of C302 heads sell on e-bay last fall for just over $1000, and another set just recently failed to sell as bidding stalled just above $1000 (or was it $1200?) and never met the reserve price. An engine building friend on the east coast offered to sell me a set of A3s last summer, fresh valve job, new springs, ready to bolt on, for $1200.
Your friend on the DTBB, George
What the heads are worth to you depends upon the motor you want to run them on, the displacement, the power band, the intended use of the car, etc.
Although they are good heads, they are not the best head for every application. And, acquiring an intake manifold for those heads can be an expensive pain in the rear.
A comment about the pricing of the motorsport heads, I observed a set of C302 heads sell on e-bay last fall for just over $1000, and another set just recently failed to sell as bidding stalled just above $1000 (or was it $1200?) and never met the reserve price. An engine building friend on the east coast offered to sell me a set of A3s last summer, fresh valve job, new springs, ready to bolt on, for $1200.
Your friend on the DTBB, George
> And, acquiring an intake manifold for those heads can be an expensive pain
> in the rear.
The auction includes a matching intake.
> and never met the reserve price.
Price is highly dependent upon condition. Many of those heads have been
excessively milled which reduces their value dramatically. If the heads
are as advertised (unaltered, complete and ready to bolt on), they are
worth a premium. For a similar CHI 3V intake and head package, you'd be
looking at around $2500. When I was putting together my 407 cube Fontana
motor, I flow tested both my C302B's and A3's. Using that data plus some
I had for the CHI 3V's, I ran some comparitive simulations using Dynomation.
The C302B's and A3's both outperformed the CHI 3V's. The C302B's were best
but had a fair bit of porting. The A3's were only bowl blended and cleaned
up with a cartridge roll in the ports.
Dan Jones
> in the rear.
The auction includes a matching intake.
> and never met the reserve price.
Price is highly dependent upon condition. Many of those heads have been
excessively milled which reduces their value dramatically. If the heads
are as advertised (unaltered, complete and ready to bolt on), they are
worth a premium. For a similar CHI 3V intake and head package, you'd be
looking at around $2500. When I was putting together my 407 cube Fontana
motor, I flow tested both my C302B's and A3's. Using that data plus some
I had for the CHI 3V's, I ran some comparitive simulations using Dynomation.
The C302B's and A3's both outperformed the CHI 3V's. The C302B's were best
but had a fair bit of porting. The A3's were only bowl blended and cleaned
up with a cartridge roll in the ports.
Dan Jones
You will like the A3 heads, trust me, I luv mine.
I have to agree about the value. If you can get them for $2500 complete you're doing ok. They aren't thin fragile castings. They are flat out race heads. Mine got kissed by a piston and had the same reaction as fire jumping on Jim Brown (an old Richard Pryor joke). Jim Brown said fire get off me, and the fire was affraid and jumped off.
The A3's are not common, the C3's are but
you guys aren't going to believe me but the hard component to get is the A331 Torker style manifold. I was told by two very dependable sources (who shall remain nameless) that there was one minimum order of them made by Edelbrock for Ford Motorsport. A minimum order is 100. You tell me what the manifold is worth. I will make no comment other then it is the only manifold made specifically for the A3 heads. The others you see like the tall spyder are for the B3 and C3.
I had a set of B3 heads with the spyder but didn't like em. The A3 with the Motorsport torker is better, noticably.
I have to agree about the value. If you can get them for $2500 complete you're doing ok. They aren't thin fragile castings. They are flat out race heads. Mine got kissed by a piston and had the same reaction as fire jumping on Jim Brown (an old Richard Pryor joke). Jim Brown said fire get off me, and the fire was affraid and jumped off.
The A3's are not common, the C3's are but
you guys aren't going to believe me but the hard component to get is the A331 Torker style manifold. I was told by two very dependable sources (who shall remain nameless) that there was one minimum order of them made by Edelbrock for Ford Motorsport. A minimum order is 100. You tell me what the manifold is worth. I will make no comment other then it is the only manifold made specifically for the A3 heads. The others you see like the tall spyder are for the B3 and C3.
I had a set of B3 heads with the spyder but didn't like em. The A3 with the Motorsport torker is better, noticably.
I've been looking for the manifold, I am aware of how hard it is to find. Dan Jones has one, but he's not letting go. I know where one is in New York, but it was drilled for nitrous, got a hole in each runner. I know what I would have to pay for one. I could have the one in New York this week. I'd rather find one without holes. I'm in the market if anyone has one to sell. The aspect I like about that manifold is the height. Its about 2" lower than all the other high rise manifolds.
I have the Roush manifold with the same part number (M-6424-A331 I believe), works with the B351 & C302 heads. Its your typical 6" rise manifold (actually 6 1/4"), looks bitchen if that's what you're into.
George
I have the Roush manifold with the same part number (M-6424-A331 I believe), works with the B351 & C302 heads. Its your typical 6" rise manifold (actually 6 1/4"), looks bitchen if that's what you're into.
George
That's the spider. It really block rear vision in the Pantera. It is also noticably more peaky. Screams over 6000 but it flat before that. The Torker comes on about 4200. For some reason they had the same casting number on them. Just another Ford MO (method of operation. Two words you can never use with Ford is never and always. If you don't understand what I mean then you are new to Fords.
I've got another 331 Torker but I've got to keep it for now. I will need it for the next time that I get pissed at the Webers. Ever try to start a car with Webers when it's under 50 degrees? Damn, I gettin' pissed again!
I've got another 331 Torker but I've got to keep it for now. I will need it for the next time that I get pissed at the Webers. Ever try to start a car with Webers when it's under 50 degrees? Damn, I gettin' pissed again!
Whoever bought them got a deal. What you are seeing cost wise George is the size of the market. The performance market for Clevelands is now very, very small. With the high value of restored Mach 1's everyone is going stock. The Pantera performance market? Is there one? Incidentally, buy the manifold and plug the holes. Don't plumb it for nitrous until you put your fullhouse XE block in.
quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
The performance market for Clevelands is now very, very small....The Pantera performance market? Is there one?
Apparently the value of the Edelbrock A331 intake is less than you think. It's less than a new intake from Australia. They are few and far between, but the demand is not that great. Few owners are considering the use of A3 heads.
I disagree with you Doug regarding the performance market for C parts. Panteras (and Cobras) are small markets within a larger market that includes vehicles manufactured in Australia (Oz) as well as the US. Even if the number of vehicles involved in that larger, overall market, is small enough to only earn the title "niche market", manufaturers do value niche markets in todays economy.
There are MORE hi po C parts manufactured today than there were in the '70s & '80s. consider this.
A new aluminum block is forthcoming from SJ Performance of Australia, new alloy heads are manufactured by AFD, CHI, Blue Thunder, Brodix AND Edelbrock. Trick flow is rumored to have heads in the works as well. NEW intake manifold designs are available from CHI, TFC, Power Heads, Parker AND Edelbrock. Old designs are still manufactured by Edelbrock, Weiand, Blue Thunder. Trick Flow is introducing a fuel injection manifold later this year.
Scat and others have crankshaft kits available for the C.
Romac & Roll Master & Yella Terra make the most bitchen balancers, timing sets & rocker arm assemblies you've ever seen. Crane, Crower, Comp Cams continue to manufacture & sell their various valve train parts for the C. All the piston manufacturers continue to churn out slugs for the C. Aftermarket ignitions (distributors) continue to be manufactured (something the C shares with the 385 series). Manley, Milodon & Moroso are still carrying their parts for the C, and Ferrea is manufacturing valves for the C. The list goes on & on.
The only thing not manufactured "yet" is a performance engine block in cast iron.
From my perspective, the fact that new parts are being developed as I write this, means the market for C parts is not perceived as shrinking by these manufacturers. They must perceive it as a viable market, or they wouldn't invest money in it.
I'm very happy with the performance parts market for the C, we have choices we never had before. The C motor, has never had the same level of aftermarket parts supply as the small block Chevy or the Windsor Ford, but Oldmobile & Pontiac guys have always been jealous of the parts available for a Cleveland. If the Cleveland performance aftermarket is "very, very, small" as you described it, what was it in the '70s & '80s?
If a person spent their time only chasing old parts like XE blocks & A3 heads, I can see how their perception might be that of a dwindling parts supply. But reality is, that is not the case.
Look at the time! I've got to shower & get to work, later!
George
I put no dollar sign on my manifold. I am well aware that it is worth what I can get for it when I go to sell it. Just like the Pantera.
I will say that I do wish that I could have held on to some of those special parts that I had to sell 35 years ago so I could eat. I could have quite a meal today on what they would sell for now. My opinion me isn't relevant. Walk through the Ford parts vendors swap meet and negotiate with them. I agree that gas isn't worth $2.50 a gallon but you still aren't going to buy it from me for $.39 like the old days.
I will say that I do wish that I could have held on to some of those special parts that I had to sell 35 years ago so I could eat. I could have quite a meal today on what they would sell for now. My opinion me isn't relevant. Walk through the Ford parts vendors swap meet and negotiate with them. I agree that gas isn't worth $2.50 a gallon but you still aren't going to buy it from me for $.39 like the old days.
> I will make no comment other then it is the only manifold made specifically
> for the A3 heads.
I've been told that there was also a Scorpion version of the Edelbrcok A331
that matched the A3 heads. The Scorpion has a taller version of the Torker.
It is essentially a Torker with a scast-in spacer. Also, Kelly Coffield
makes an independent runner EFI intake that fits the A3 heads. Also, be aware
that not all A3's have the wide ports. I have a set that has narrow ports
like a C302B.
> Dan Jones has one, but he's not letting go.
No, I'm keeping that for the new-in-the-box A3 heads I have.
> I've got another 331 Torker but I've got to keep it for now. I will need it
> for the next time that I get pissed at the Webers.
Sounds like you need to convert to IR fuel injection. Weber looks and with
excellent manners.
> Whoever bought them got a deal.
Absolutely. That set-up went for less than a pair of bare Brodix or CHI
heads.
Dan Jones
> for the A3 heads.
I've been told that there was also a Scorpion version of the Edelbrcok A331
that matched the A3 heads. The Scorpion has a taller version of the Torker.
It is essentially a Torker with a scast-in spacer. Also, Kelly Coffield
makes an independent runner EFI intake that fits the A3 heads. Also, be aware
that not all A3's have the wide ports. I have a set that has narrow ports
like a C302B.
> Dan Jones has one, but he's not letting go.
No, I'm keeping that for the new-in-the-box A3 heads I have.
> I've got another 331 Torker but I've got to keep it for now. I will need it
> for the next time that I get pissed at the Webers.
Sounds like you need to convert to IR fuel injection. Weber looks and with
excellent manners.
> Whoever bought them got a deal.
Absolutely. That set-up went for less than a pair of bare Brodix or CHI
heads.
Dan Jones
It's just you and me Dan. They look but they do not see, they listen but they do not hear.
You don't understand the Webers Dan, Webers are a way of life.
You don't understand the Webers Dan, Webers are a way of life.
> You don't understand the Webers Dan, Webers are a way of life.
You're not alone there. Preference in carbs are like religious convictions.
Dan
You're not alone there. Preference in carbs are like religious convictions.
Dan
I picked up a set of Webers last week. There is a 100 reasons why I should stick with the Demon but ooohhh they are cooool!
Gary
Gary
Webers are more like an epiphany.quote:Originally posted by Daniel_Jones:
> You don't understand the Webers Dan, Webers are a way of life.
You're not alone there. Preference in carbs are like religious convictions.
Dan
quote:I was told by two very dependable sources (who shall remain nameless) that there was one minimum order of them made by Edelbrock for Ford Motorsport. A minimum order is 100.
Sounds like this manifold is worth its weight in gold. Too bad they stopped at 100.
" I will need it for the next time that I get pissed at the Webers. Ever try to start a car with Webers when it's under 50 degrees? Damn, I gettin' pissed again![/QUOTE]
Dear Mr. Doug, if you get really po'd enough, could you do me a favor?? Could you buy one of these and put them on your car...
http://www.hilborninjection.com/category.asp?Id=99
and then let me know what you think of them and if they run good and reliable and stuff like that??? I have always kinda wanted these but had heard they don't work very well, but that was a long time ago and I think in the last thirty years they gotta have improved a bit. It is just they is so expensive I can't take a chance on them unless you say they are ok.
Thanks,
Detom
Dear Mr. Doug, if you get really po'd enough, could you do me a favor?? Could you buy one of these and put them on your car...
http://www.hilborninjection.com/category.asp?Id=99
and then let me know what you think of them and if they run good and reliable and stuff like that??? I have always kinda wanted these but had heard they don't work very well, but that was a long time ago and I think in the last thirty years they gotta have improved a bit. It is just they is so expensive I can't take a chance on them unless you say they are ok.
Thanks,
Detom
Josh,
the manifold only fits one set of heads, the A3 heads. Unless you plan to install A3 heads, the manifold has no value to you at all. It's nothing special, just a Torker with the runner size adjusted to mate with the A3 heads.
The A3 heads have intake ports that have the floors filled in & the port raised slightly, in comparison to a production 4V head.
What I like about the manifold is that the carb mounting base is the same height as a Torker's. I'm not one who likes the carb & air filter sticking up above the engine screen. The manifolds for the B351 & C302 Motorsport heads, Yates heads, Brodix, Blue Thunder, CHI 3V, AFD 4V, are for the most part the high rise spider type manifolds, the carb mounts 2 to 3 inches higher than it does on the Torker.
If I can locate the A331 intake, I'll probably build a motor around the A3 heads, for that reason only, because of the manifold height. I do not consider the A3 heads the best choice among the many options that are available. That's not to say they are dogs. I have written on several occasions here on the DTBB, no Cleveland cylinder heads are dogs, the cylinder heads are not a weak link in making power.
I figure I will build one last motor in my life, this one for myself. I have a motor in mind I would like to build. I need that intake to do it.
Few enthusiasts any longer want to build a motor with A3 heads, there are better choices, so the demand for that intake is not great at all. In turn, the pricing of that intake is not as high as you might think, it's in line with other intakes from the Ford Motorsport era, which are all somewhat scarce.
George
the manifold only fits one set of heads, the A3 heads. Unless you plan to install A3 heads, the manifold has no value to you at all. It's nothing special, just a Torker with the runner size adjusted to mate with the A3 heads.
The A3 heads have intake ports that have the floors filled in & the port raised slightly, in comparison to a production 4V head.
What I like about the manifold is that the carb mounting base is the same height as a Torker's. I'm not one who likes the carb & air filter sticking up above the engine screen. The manifolds for the B351 & C302 Motorsport heads, Yates heads, Brodix, Blue Thunder, CHI 3V, AFD 4V, are for the most part the high rise spider type manifolds, the carb mounts 2 to 3 inches higher than it does on the Torker.
If I can locate the A331 intake, I'll probably build a motor around the A3 heads, for that reason only, because of the manifold height. I do not consider the A3 heads the best choice among the many options that are available. That's not to say they are dogs. I have written on several occasions here on the DTBB, no Cleveland cylinder heads are dogs, the cylinder heads are not a weak link in making power.
I figure I will build one last motor in my life, this one for myself. I have a motor in mind I would like to build. I need that intake to do it.
Few enthusiasts any longer want to build a motor with A3 heads, there are better choices, so the demand for that intake is not great at all. In turn, the pricing of that intake is not as high as you might think, it's in line with other intakes from the Ford Motorsport era, which are all somewhat scarce.
George
Thank you for the additional info, George.
I took a look at one of these intakes on Mike Dailey's website..and it sure is pretty, very low, and very unique. I like it..but as you say, would have no use for it.
I'll definitely add it to my search routine with the hope of finding one for you.
I took a look at one of these intakes on Mike Dailey's website..and it sure is pretty, very low, and very unique. I like it..but as you say, would have no use for it.
I'll definitely add it to my search routine with the hope of finding one for you.
quote:Originally posted by DeTom:
" I will need it for the next time that I get pissed at the Webers. Ever try to start a car with Webers when it's under 50 degrees? Damn, I gettin' pissed again!
Dear Mr. Doug, if you get really po'd enough, could you do me a favor?? Could you buy one of these and put them on your car...
http://www.hilborninjection.com/category.asp?Id=99
and then let me know what you think of them and if they run good and reliable and stuff like that??? I have always kinda wanted these but had heard they don't work very well, but that was a long time ago and I think in the last thirty years they gotta have improved a bit. It is just they is so expensive I can't take a chance on them unless you say they are ok.
Thanks,
Detom[/QUOTE] Sorry DeTom, no can do. Hillborne isn't Italian or say FoMoCo on it.
I didn't know weber was italian or said ford on them. Sorry for my ignorance.
quote:Originally posted by JK:
I'll definitely add it to my search routine with the hope of finding one for you.
Josh, how thoughtful & kind. Thank you. George
Personally I would opt for a pair of Autolite Inline carbs on a Doug Nash IR Trans-Am manifold before the Hilbornes. That's how irrational and stupid I am. I can deal with carbs, FI, I don't know. That would be a new chapter for me.
As far as the A331 manifold being nothing special I agree. I will also point out the the 427 Magnesium 1x4 intake manifold is nothing special either. It is just a PI single 1x4 manifold cast from magnesium. It was on the factory "light weight 427" engines that were in the Comp Cobras, factory lightweight Galaxies, and the 65 Ford GT Mark II. Along with the aluminum hubbed XE balancer, aluminum MR C6FE-B heads and the 67 Fairlane 427 cast iron exhaust manifolds. None of which are particularly special or desireable for performance or even dependabilaty. There are MUCH better aftermarket parts available. Needless to say they are hardly worthless.
As far as the A331 manifold being nothing special I agree. I will also point out the the 427 Magnesium 1x4 intake manifold is nothing special either. It is just a PI single 1x4 manifold cast from magnesium. It was on the factory "light weight 427" engines that were in the Comp Cobras, factory lightweight Galaxies, and the 65 Ford GT Mark II. Along with the aluminum hubbed XE balancer, aluminum MR C6FE-B heads and the 67 Fairlane 427 cast iron exhaust manifolds. None of which are particularly special or desireable for performance or even dependabilaty. There are MUCH better aftermarket parts available. Needless to say they are hardly worthless.