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"AGROVADR" SOLD !!!!!!

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J JVS (Guest)
I could not let the "AGROVADER", Lou's Over The Top Car leave town, so it now resides next to my Candy Sunset Red '72 in the garage. There is only one problem... My wife won't let me say in the "Dumb and Dumber Club" for long. (Dumb and Dumber Club
is someone who owns two or more Panteras.)
Current SE Pantera Club members are Al Rubin and Guts Gossage. So my 72 # 2539 is for sale, see sale sections of PI.
P phill1 (Guest)
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Donegan:
Way to go Agro.

Where's that naysayer named Percy "my car is better cause it's a real GT-5S" Hill?


Steve: First, you did not read carefully what I said. My point was that any kit application is simply that, a kit. A car so modified will never be a "real" GT5 or GT5-S as the case may be. For the same reason cubic zirconia faux diamonds are imitations, so are cars that have been so modified. No sane person will argue this truth. Any car from the model T forward can be stripped down to the frame, factory faults corrected, modifications galore made and you can end up with an automobile that is better than what the factory produced. No secret there. And don't get me wrong, I like hot rods.

Second, I know Jay and his wife, Lou and his wife (and will soon likely meet his baby) personally and we and I meet up at various events here in Florida and I think his Agrovader is a beautiful car and extremely well done. In fact Lou posted some photographs of my GT5S on the Southesat Panteras website. So don't confuse the rarity of 40 to 50 original GT5-S cars in the US, with the 2,600 to 3,000 71-74 cars in various shades of dress in any other way than it is a simple fact they are rare and unique. Factory GT5 & GT5-S original cars are comparably very rare,and in time, if history is any guide premiums for that rarity occur. That is why the entry point for a GT5 or GT5-S starts around 60k, unmodified.
HS Highway Star (Guest)
quote:
Originally posted by phill1:
Steve: First, you did not read carefully what I said. My point was that any kit application is simply that, a kit. A car so modified will never be a "real" GT5 or GT5-S as the case may be. For the same reason cubic zirconia faux diamonds are imitations, so are cars that have been so modified. No sane person will argue this truth. Any car from the model T forward can be stripped down to the frame, factory faults corrected, modifications galore made and you can end up with an automobile that is better than what the factory produced. No secret there. And don't get me wrong, I like hot rods.

Second, I know Jay and his wife, Lou and his wife (and will soon likely meet his baby) personally and we and I meet up at various events here in Florida and I think his Agrovader is a beautiful car and extremely well done. In fact Lou posted some photographs of my GT5S on the Southesat Panteras website. So don't confuse the rarity of 40 to 50 original GT5-S cars in the US, with the 2,600 to 3,000 71-74 cars in various shades of dress in any other way than it is a simple fact they are rare and unique. Factory GT5 & GT5-S original cars are comparably very rare,and in time, if history is any guide premiums for that rarity occur. That is why the entry point for a GT5 or GT5-S starts around 60k, unmodified.


Percy - You just don't get it and probably will never get it. Perhaps you should've bought a corvette or a rare ferarri.

At least you've now tempered your remarks as witnessed above and have stopped posting your unregistered posts criticizing modified cars, Agrovador and Dave's car included.
Best wishes.
P phill1 (Guest)
My comments to any modified car go to this simple point. Example: "73 GT-5 for sale." No GT5 cars were produced in 1973. Should have read "73L GT-5 conversion for sale". Simple as that.

Here is another example. PI ran an article on Roland Jaeckel's GT5-S Targa. The impression reasonably drawn from the article was that Roland had found one of the very rare GT5-S Pavisi targa's.

What he has is a Euro '73 GTS, not a GT5-S, that was sent to Pavisi for the Targa work prior to Rolands ownership, then CONVERTED (see POCA site) by Roland to GT5-S fenders etc. It is an awsome car just the same. So, either Roland misrepresented the car to POCA or misrepresented the car to PI, or PI didn't know or chose not to mention these facts, you decide.

How about a guy who "clones" a Shelby GT 350 Mustang? Isn't there a Shelby register out there, you bet there is. Shouldn't that guy say "Shelby GT 350 clone for sale?" Of course he should no matter how nice the car is.
But I would like to hear your logic and rational as to why my common sense view is out of order and what excludes and makes Panteras different from other marques.
HS Highway Star (Guest)
quote:
Originally posted by phill1:
My comments to any modified car go to this simple point. Example: "73 GT-5 for sale." No GT5 cars were produced in 1973. Should have read "73L GT-5 conversion for sale". Simple as that.

Here is another example. PI ran an article on Roland Jaeckel's GT5-S Targa. The impression reasonably drawn from the article was that Roland had found one of the very rare GT5-S Pavisi targa's.

What he has is a Euro '73 GTS, not a GT5-S, that was sent to Pavisi for the Targa work prior to Rolands ownership, then CONVERTED (see POCA site) by Roland to GT5-S fenders etc. It is an awsome car just the same. So, either Roland misrepresented the car to POCA or misrepresented the car to PI, or PI didn't know or chose not to mention these facts, you decide.

How about a guy who "clones" a Shelby GT 350 Mustang? Isn't there a Shelby register out there, you bet there is. Shouldn't that guy say "Shelby GT 350 clone for sale?" Of course he should no matter how nice the car is.
But I would like to hear your logic and rational as to why my common sense view is out of order and what excludes and makes Panteras different from other marques.


Percy Hill,
Or are you the one and only unregistered �Pantera Fan�?

Since you share the same IP address, perhaps you're CLONES!

First: Take note that Dave Clark�s ad reads GT-5 ***CONVERSION***!!!

http://64.70.166.243/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000443.html

Also, take note of the not-so subtle CONVERSION of Pantera Fan into Percy.


Second: Take note of Pantera International President, Dave Adler�s qualified remarks:

Admin5
Administrator
Posts: 227
Registered: posted 06-06-2003 02:15 PM

"A real GT5 is a rare bird indeed and a good one would sell for more than the item offered. Also, real GT5 cars have to have DOT + EPA releases. It doesn't concern me that a person calls their car a GT5 or GTS when it is obvious it is a "clone" unless the seller represented that it was authentic. I would note that Euro cars are harder to find that US spec cars and often sell at a premium thanks to their enhanced or different engines, brakes and ZFs than US spec cars. The proof of the pudding is always QUALITY. A QUALITY Pantera of any year will bring more money than a "rarer" GT5 that is in tatty condition. My 2 centavos. I have heard that the subject car is a winner! DAve!"
IP: 66.125.147.158

Let�s see�who�s correct? A troll? Or, PI Prez Dave Adler?

Third: See Agrovador�s reply to the troll.

AGROVADR
unregistered posted 07-28-2003 05:22 PM

"I think Pantera Fan needs to go back to his corvette community and stay there, you obviously have no concept of the Pantera. You keep talking about Pebble Beach, "we drive our cars", get it through your head
Pebble Beach, Bloomington Gold theyre different venues and are respectable in they're own right. So dont go knockin peoples cars, I've seen Daves car I've driven to car shows with him so I know he has a great car I'm not a "fan" I'm an owner and team player.SO #$%&##!!! Pebble Beach!!!"

Percy, you really need to just get over the fact that Lou's formerly owned modified GT5S beauty outshone your GT5S in a Florida car show. Get over it, your car is beautiful but no way will it ever compare to the Agrovador.

And now you're talking about Roland Jaeckal's GT5S!!! GEEEZZZ!

BEST WISHES THIS HOLIDAY SEASON!
P phill1 (Guest)
Highway Star:

I have never impuned the beauty of, nor the quality of the work done on any of the cars you mention. Dave has been, and, continues to be a leader of Southeast Panteras/POCA and his car is very nice. As I have already written, I think Lou's car was one of the best custom Panteras I have seen. Enough said on that subject.

I have always posted under phill1 and included my name in some postings. As to Pantera Fan, while not a member of PI or POCA he seemed genuinely interested in Pantera's and was an employee of mine who has not been with the firm for some months having relocated to help his parents out. I have not researched the boards but I haven't seen any postings under that name for some months since that time. However, I do personally agree with a good deal of the comments he made regarding Concours standards in general. My car is a regular driver, in very nice 98% original condition. It was never intended to be or prepared to be a show car or to compete with one. It appears that you and I disagree with the propriety of the "model" naming issue so I suggest we agree to disagree on that subject.

My comments to the PI article went to a fundamental issue in journalisim regarding accuracy in reporting. The omission that the car started life as a '73 GTS, then was subsequently modified by Pavisi and Roland is a meaningful oversight in my view. Meaningful in that it doesn't properly inform us factually, or do credit to the work Roland put into the car. He didn't just buy it, he personally built it. That is impressive. I will re read the article but my post had nothing to do with the excellent quality of the car's preparation.

We are an owners group bound by our collective interest in things DeTomaso. In my view, we should be able to discuss, debate all ideas as they relate to the cars without ranting hyperbole.

"But I would like to hear your logic and rational as to why my common sense view is out of order and what excludes and makes Panteras different from other marques."

Percy Hill

[This message has been edited by phill1 (edited 12-30-2003).]
H HDJammer (Guest)
Here are my 2 cents worth.....when you go to a car show, there are a number of different classes that include stock, modified, and custom to name a few. All the cars in the various classes are done to the owners preference. The owners of the totally stock cars will say that the guy with the custom car ruined it. The guy with the custom car says the stock car is too plain and out dated. But when you get past all that, they are all at the car show because they all share the love of fine cars. The goal of the Pantera owners should be to support the
"breed" and if you have to divide them into classes, so be it. We should support each other in our choice of owning a Pantera and strive to "raise the bar" on thes cars, and not beat down the value over differences in philosophy!!!!!
J JVS (Guest)
We "The Pantera Owner�s and De Tomaso Fans" should be positive in promoting the "De Tomaso Breed"!!! We shouldn't be bickering over the pedigree of each car since all the cars needed to be modified in one fashion or another to be road worthy.
Let's enjoy the beauty of each and every car no mater if it�s a �Pre L, L GT4, GT5, GT5S or a 200, it�s the condition of each car that counts. This �Breed� of metal and machinery which has been transformed into such a beautiful work of ART will find its own way to the right persons who will value this type of car and it�s Membership.
Happy New Year's to all De Tomaso Pantera Fans from a two Pantera owner and loving it!!
A Admin5 (Guest)
I have enjoyed reading the spirited comments on this topic. I believe Mr. Hill is speaking in good faith on the originality/concours issue. I have no problem when an enthusiast takes a strong stand that favors a strict construction of the term "Concours." Indeed, when the Newporter Concours was a happening event in the seventies and eighties, I was fortunate to have been on the organization committee for the show and also to edit the event program several years. I attended a meeting of the head judges at one Newporter when they laid out the ground rules for judging. The judges were very respected authorities at that time, with specialists responsible for each marque. Essentially, the judges were instructed that a car that had rolled off the assembly line, been boxed up and then delivered to the display area without any modifications would be totally concours and should not have any points taken away from a theoretical 100 points. This above described, original/concours car would score higher than a competitor's car, even if the competitor's car had been treated to a ground up restoration with a 25K paint job, etc. It simply boiled down to the fact that the factory, unmodified car fit the "black letter" definition of "concours". It didn't matter if a fully restored car had more eye appeal or not. Surprisingly, not many cars were presented at concours that had been preserved without any changes. The vast majority of cars had received extensive and costly upgrading with some being true to original and others being modified. It just seemed that most owners, even back in the early days were modifying their cars. In 1974 or 1975, I participated in a concours at Ports O' Call Village in San Pedro, California that was won quite handily by Mr. Dyer's exquisite black Pantera. It was the first time I had seen chrome, powder-painted black, smoothed and finished engine bay and a very high-end Junior's House of Color paint, etc. Most cars at that time were bone stock, like mine, that I had recently purchased from an LM dealer. I think my car was judged third, third from the worst in the show! Thus, even almost 30 years ago, a formal judging committee was leaning towards modified cars. Other stand-out show winners in subsequent Newporters included "Impulse", the Jim Kilpatrick, twin-turbo car that won Best of Show honors at this major event. I am sure there are more, but my point is, dead-stock cars did not capture the judge's hearts as much as the modified, "peacocks". Mr. Hill reflects on the 2003 Concorso Italiano show where Patrick Holleran's extensively modified Pantera won Best of Marque honors as well as best paint, etc. Percy is critical that a very stock or original car was overlooked by the judges. The judges actually were voting owners of Panteras, not people's choice/beauty contest voters. Real owners. The ballot permitted the voting owners to categorize the cars as to either concours/original, modified or wash 'n wax. The votes were tallied and the highest vote getter in the classes earned their trophies. The Holleran car garnered the majority of votes. No formal judging committee was employed by PI at this event. Formal judging can lead to big problems if you are staging a "fun event" like the Concorso White Glove, in our opinion. Owners can get very upset if the judges overlook their car and arguments and hard feelings can ensue when one owner insists that such and such part is original when a judge disagrees. We have seen trophies thrown away in disgust but an owner who feels his car was slighted. Indeed, a finger of suspicion is even pointed at Mr. Hill over his car, as motivating him in decrying the Agrovador's recent trophy run. Several outstanding cars won top honors in the Concours class that were very original, but the votes cast were nominal compared to the Holleran Pantera. My experience in sales of Panteras taught me years ago that dead stock cars are less in demand than high quality, modified cars. I also know from my own research that the DeTomaso factory itself built to customer's orders modified cars from day one! I have one photo of a Pantera with a strange after-market wing, front spoiler, scoops and wheels! The bottom line from PI's perspective is that there is room at the top for all of us to enjoy and appreciate stock and modified cars. Because Panteras are driven and used by most owners, it is typical to find all types of modifications that enhance performance and reliability. Likewise, a bone-stock car is of great interest to us as well because it permits us to appreciate the pure beauty and functionality of the original article. We have invited Mr. Hill to assist us in a constructive manner at next year's Concorso DeTomaso display because we feel his voice should be heard, although not controlling. As matters stand now, PI intends to keep recognizing the three classes we have in the past: Concours (original), Modified and Wash 'n wax. We do not favor formal judging at our event as Percy seeks, however, Mr. Hill has written an editorial on this topic that will be published in the Winter 2003 issue of PI and we will gauge the reaction of members to Mr. Hill's comments. We have also made a greater attempt to feature stock cars in our publication. As for Percy's comments on the Pavesi Pantera of Mr. Roland Jackel, there was no intent to mislead readers on his part or PI's. Comments from member's are always invited to clarify or amplify on a feature. We are an information exchange and from time to time, an article we publish may require further clarification. There is no sinister intent on anybody's part. We just want to have fun and hope people don't take all of this too seriously! Best wishes for the New Year. Paige, Linda & Dave Adler, Pantera International

[This message has been edited by Admin5 (edited 01-02-2004).]
does200does200Member
Dave & Company are always so right and politically correct (whatever that means in an non political environment).

�Can�t we all just get along?� I heard that somewhere before. Modified and stock are both nice in appearance; I think we can all agree...there is something great to be said of both. But if you are modifying one, at least take the time to do it right. These aren�t throwaway rice burners.
HS Highway Star (Guest)
GREAT response Dave!! Bravo!!

p.s. How about a PI story on the custom
ordering that occured at the factory.
I knew this type of ordering occured during
the post-Ford period...but, you mentioned
this practice occured as early as 1971!!?

Custom spoilers, scoops and rear wings by
the de Tomaso factory in 1971?!!?

This is the first I've heard of it!
Love it!! Thanks, Dave.



[This message has been edited by Highway Star (edited 01-04-2004).]
R robertMember
HA HA HA That's side show Mel!! I think you wanted Side Show Bob......I DONT
think Dave is gonna like importing complete jpg/gif from other sites.....like this one from
thesimpsins.com.....I like it!!!! HaHaHA..............After side show Bob went to jail for trying to kill Bart...Mel was ok but Side show Bob....WOW What a performer!
SD Steve Donegan (Guest)
Wrong'o loser! I AM AN OWNER!

Although a nice picture, you have the wrong Donegan! HAHAHAHAHAHA

I'm sure this guy doesn't mind you posting his pic though...perhaps you should e-mail him!

HAHAHAHAHAHA

You are such an insecure LoooooooSer as witnessed by your ramblings on this post,
and your "discussions" with others on this board.

You're so predictable. Thanks for the laughs DoOfUs!!

So long...
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