I agree that it should be about tailpipe emissions. Unfortunately, we have two things going against us:
1. It goes without saying that the emissions systems of '70's and early '80's cars weren't great.
2. The Feds need some policy to follow, so they stick to the idea that outdated emissions gear are as important as the reason for the emissions equipment's existence.
Kirk Evans developed his system and wrote (in a nutshell) that it wasn't hard to engineer, but hard to get it thru the bureaucracy.
Sorry that I can't help solve the problem. Utah's vintage vehicle laws don't require emissions or inspection. Plus, it costs $10 per year to register.
David,
A smog shop no matter how nefarious they are will not be able to give you what you want.
Your car is not registered in CA and thus not in the system there is no connection for them to issue you a smog certificate. You will need to go through the BAR sticker registration process that I linked to in my previous post.
I know this is not what you want to hear but I went through this process with several post 1975 imported vehicles. The only option around this is to register outside CA. You will see grey market exotics Boxers, Countachs etc... down here with Oregon plates. California makes it very hard to own imported vehicles like ours.
A smog shop no matter how nefarious they are will not be able to give you what you want.
Your car is not registered in CA and thus not in the system there is no connection for them to issue you a smog certificate. You will need to go through the BAR sticker registration process that I linked to in my previous post.
I know this is not what you want to hear but I went through this process with several post 1975 imported vehicles. The only option around this is to register outside CA. You will see grey market exotics Boxers, Countachs etc... down here with Oregon plates. California makes it very hard to own imported vehicles like ours.
quote:Originally posted by adoberetreat:
A GT5-S is not a daily commuter car. It is a car for the auto enthusiast who enjoys the hobby and appreciates a rare car. All I want to do is be able to drive my GT5-S on an occasional weekend, take it to a car show once in a while, and drive it to an event like the POCA convention once a year. Is that so unreasonable?
The current laws in California make it very difficult for the average American to be able to do own a rare car post 1975, because of the expense and misery involved in getting the car smog legal so it can be registered. If I have to take my car to CARB, I've been told they charge $10,000 for the inspection. Then I'd have to spend a ton of money and time putting all the smog equipment on the car. It would be so costly that it would get to the point where it's not even worth it.
In my opinion there should be a provision in the law for a rare low production car of special interest to be exempt from these smog rules. It's just common sense.
But since there isn't, I am left no choice but to find another way. I have the challenge of trying to find a smog shop that can get me a certificate by hook or crook, so to speak.
If there are any smog shop owners out there in California who want to make some extra money please PM me. if there are any Pantera owners out there who have a connection with a smog shop please PM me.
Thanks,
David
I'm not here to bash California, but California has it's own special issues. You are allowed to have your '88 Pantera, the way it was built, not the way it is now.
Write to your legislator, or better yet, Arnold. I'm sure, "he'll be back" to you?
quote:Originally posted by Murph:
David,
A smog shop no matter how nefarious they are will not be able to give you what you want.
Your car is not registered in CA and thus not in the system there is no connection for them to issue you a smog certificate. You will need to go through the BAR sticker registration process that I linked to in my previous post.
I know this is not what you want to hear but I went through this process with several post 1975 imported vehicles. The only option around this is to register outside CA. You will see grey market exotics Boxers, Countachs etc... down here with Oregon plates. California makes it very hard to own imported vehicles like ours.
I am not in CA but wonder whether that is really true as it implies that any car not previously registered in CA cannot get a smog certificate and I doubt that is true. Either DMV gets the VIN in the system first and you go for smog or the smog station manually enters it. Here in NV you need a smog prior to going to DMV so the station manually enters out of state vehicle details.
There are loads of Oregon plated cars here in Reno, I'm told OR registration costs are very low.
Julian
What this most likely means is that the car will need to be taken the the BAR referee to verify that it in fact passes smog visual and tail pipe. If it passes they install a sticker on the door jamb that identifies what equipment is required for this specific car. Our Bora has this done years ago. Even though it is a 73 and it does not required cats we would not ge it to run clean enough without them. The BAR sticker show that cats and smog pump is required. Most likely this will be the procedure. If the car runs clean enough its fairly easy. If it wont run clean that is where the problems begin.
Julian, you are a cerebral guy to be sure. Good observation about it not making sense that all out of state vehicles entering California cannot get smogged and are referred to CARB or BAR. That would make it a nightmare for anyone living in Ca. to buy an out of state car. Yet out of state cars are bought here all the time.
As I understand it, when I go to the Ca. DMV, I will give them the NJ title and they will enter the VIN# into their system as is the usual practice for out of state cars that have never been in California. Next they will have a visual inspection of my car to physically check my VIN# on the car. Next they will send me to a smog shop. The part I am scared about is that because I don't have cats or any smog equip on the car I might have trouble at some point along the journey to register the car, not to mention the challenge of finding a "Cooperative" smog shop here.
But I have formulated another plan. I'll know soon if it will work.
Thanks,
David
As I understand it, when I go to the Ca. DMV, I will give them the NJ title and they will enter the VIN# into their system as is the usual practice for out of state cars that have never been in California. Next they will have a visual inspection of my car to physically check my VIN# on the car. Next they will send me to a smog shop. The part I am scared about is that because I don't have cats or any smog equip on the car I might have trouble at some point along the journey to register the car, not to mention the challenge of finding a "Cooperative" smog shop here.
But I have formulated another plan. I'll know soon if it will work.
Thanks,
David
When you bring a car into CA - any car - you take it to DMV. They do the physical inspection on the VIN. You can take it to AAA - they will do the same thing. You must take it to a smog test center to have it smogged. No smog, no registration. If the car is NOT a 50-state smog legal car - meaning it has a 50-state emission sticker on it - GAME OVER. You might as well not go any further unless you want to play the BAR sticker game explained by someone in this thread (e.g. get alot of money ready). If it is a 50-state car, they smog it. But your car will never pass smog as it has been completely modified and will never be compliant.
So your choice is to give up or find a scam artist that will forge your smog. Good luck with that.
So your choice is to give up or find a scam artist that will forge your smog. Good luck with that.
I know this trick is used a lot by the Ferrari crowd to not pay sales tax where they really live. It is all 100% legal, but not sure how ethical it is. Anyway, the deal is, you have a lawyer draw up a Montana LLC to own your car (you of course own the Montana LLC) -- then the lawyer gets it registered with plates in Montana. There is no tax liability and after an amount of time you can transfer the registration of that car into your state tax free. I believe there is an amount of time the car needs to be physically in Montana to be truly legal-- but the lawyer would be able to answer that question.
Not quite sure if this would work in So Cal? I thought that there are laws against out of state rides not matching the driver's license state -- but I have no idea as I don't live in So Cal. Anyway, thought others would at least like seeing how the 1% does it -- and I know this is legal as well; I have not done this, but I know those that have and it really does work. So if you're purchasing a $2 million car it probably makes sense to do this, but not a $50,000 car. Just wondering if this would work with what you want to do to drive the car in So Cal -- my guess would be this is not what you're looking for, but here is the link anyway:
Sales Tax Free Car Register MONTANA
Best of luck -- let us know what you come up for a work around to getting your car registered in CA. We want to know!
Mark
Not quite sure if this would work in So Cal? I thought that there are laws against out of state rides not matching the driver's license state -- but I have no idea as I don't live in So Cal. Anyway, thought others would at least like seeing how the 1% does it -- and I know this is legal as well; I have not done this, but I know those that have and it really does work. So if you're purchasing a $2 million car it probably makes sense to do this, but not a $50,000 car. Just wondering if this would work with what you want to do to drive the car in So Cal -- my guess would be this is not what you're looking for, but here is the link anyway:
Sales Tax Free Car Register MONTANA
Best of luck -- let us know what you come up for a work around to getting your car registered in CA. We want to know!
Mark
Maybe something has changed in the last 10 or so years but when the State law was changed exempting cars of 73 vintage or older from smog tests I took my Oregon licensed twin blown car to the DMV to get it registered in California. All that was required was a visual verification of the VIN. No smog at that time.
quote:Originally posted by Joules5:quote:Originally posted by Murph:
David,
A smog shop no matter how nefarious they are will not be able to give you what you want.
Your car is not registered in CA and thus not in the system there is no connection for them to issue you a smog certificate. You will need to go through the BAR sticker registration process that I linked to in my previous post.
I know this is not what you want to hear but I went through this process with several post 1975 imported vehicles. The only option around this is to register outside CA. You will see grey market exotics Boxers, Countachs etc... down here with Oregon plates. California makes it very hard to own imported vehicles like ours.
I am not in CA but wonder whether that is really true as it implies that any car not previously registered in CA cannot get a smog certificate and I doubt that is true. Either DMV gets the VIN in the system first and you go for smog or the smog station manually enters it. Here in NV you need a smog prior to going to DMV so the station manually enters out of state vehicle details.
There are loads of Oregon plated cars here in Reno, I'm told OR registration costs are very low.
Julian
If the Montana thing works out ok, but two things come to mind.
First, vehicles registered to a business rather then an individual pay Commercial insurance rates. That is usually around 300% more the an individuals insurance.
Second, make sure what the states minimum corporate income tax is for that state.
In NY, the minimum tax would be $950, whether or not the corporation had any business or not.
The attorneys here don't refer to it as an income tax, which it is, they refer to it as a franchise fee.
Sorry David I led the conversation off on a tangent with my statement: "Your car is not registered in CA and thus not in the system there is no connection for them to issue you a smog certificate."
I should have said "your car is not CA smog legal" instead of "not registered in CA".
Panterpatt put it the most cleanly:
Good Luck, I hope to see your car here locally soon.
I should have said "your car is not CA smog legal" instead of "not registered in CA".
Panterpatt put it the most cleanly:
quote:Originally posted by Panterapatt:
When you bring a car into CA - any car - you take it to DMV. They do the physical inspection on the VIN. You can take it to AAA - they will do the same thing. You must take it to a smog test center to have it smogged. No smog, no registration. If the car is NOT a 50-state smog legal car - meaning it has a 50-state emission sticker on it - GAME OVER. You might as well not go any further unless you want to play the BAR sticker game explained by someone in this thread (e.g. get alot of money ready). If it is a 50-state car, they smog it. But your car will never pass smog as it has been completely modified and will never be compliant.
Good Luck, I hope to see your car here locally soon.
Guys, Remember the reason this car is having or will have problems is because it is a post 1975 year model. An out of state blown what ever as long as its 1975 or older dosent have this problem.
Really interesting topic. The legal ownership issue is an interesting slight of hand (sorry if this is off topic on smogging but it may be very relevant and ties into the Montana titling of a car by the Ferrari owners).
I owned a large boat a few years back in partnership with three other buddies (kinda like a timeshare), we owned the boat in a Delaware corporation for liability issues in case one of the partners had an accident with the boat the liability wouldn't flow to all of us personally, the injured party could sue the corporation but the only asst was the boat. When a "documented vessel" is purchased in California there is a large Use Tax that the state hits you for and to avoid it many boat owners were taking newly purchased boats out of the country, parking them in a marina in Mexico for 6+ months, then bring the boat back into the country and avoid this tax...it was a very substantial $$ amount like 8 or 9% of the boats value. When we sold this boat, all we did was sell the shares/stock of the corporation to the new owner...and to our surprise since the boats ownership didn't change (it stayed in the corporation) the new owner didn't have to pay the California documented vessel use tax...we never intended this to happen when we put the ownership of the boat in the Delaware corporation. Of course the new owner was ecstatic because he just got an 8-9% reduction in his total cost to purchase the boat.
Here's possibly the Ferrari owners fix...register the car in Montana...possibly they don't require a home address for a property in that state to do registration...get a PO Box and register the car to that address, meet Montana requirements for registering the car, pay their annual registration fees, but drive the car here in California legally with plates and registration from Montana or another state? One of my neighbors had all his cars registered in New Mexico at the hotel he owned there. He saved on annual registration fees and insurance by doing this. He did it for at least 15 years that I know of.
I owned a large boat a few years back in partnership with three other buddies (kinda like a timeshare), we owned the boat in a Delaware corporation for liability issues in case one of the partners had an accident with the boat the liability wouldn't flow to all of us personally, the injured party could sue the corporation but the only asst was the boat. When a "documented vessel" is purchased in California there is a large Use Tax that the state hits you for and to avoid it many boat owners were taking newly purchased boats out of the country, parking them in a marina in Mexico for 6+ months, then bring the boat back into the country and avoid this tax...it was a very substantial $$ amount like 8 or 9% of the boats value. When we sold this boat, all we did was sell the shares/stock of the corporation to the new owner...and to our surprise since the boats ownership didn't change (it stayed in the corporation) the new owner didn't have to pay the California documented vessel use tax...we never intended this to happen when we put the ownership of the boat in the Delaware corporation. Of course the new owner was ecstatic because he just got an 8-9% reduction in his total cost to purchase the boat.
Here's possibly the Ferrari owners fix...register the car in Montana...possibly they don't require a home address for a property in that state to do registration...get a PO Box and register the car to that address, meet Montana requirements for registering the car, pay their annual registration fees, but drive the car here in California legally with plates and registration from Montana or another state? One of my neighbors had all his cars registered in New Mexico at the hotel he owned there. He saved on annual registration fees and insurance by doing this. He did it for at least 15 years that I know of.
I found a performance shop fairly close to my house that works on hot rods and muscle cars. This is a very busy shop with lots of early and late model cars in their garage being worked on. A fair amount of these cars are post 1975. Most of these cars have absolutely no smog or cat converters, yet I noticed these cars all have Ca. plates and current registration. I was thinking to myself, "How can that be?" So I asked to speak to the manager. I told the manager about my worries of getting my '88 GT5-S smogged. The manager says he has connections and that he will get me a smog certificate no problem. His performance shop has a sort of symbiotic relationship with a smog shop where he sends all of his customers. The manager says he has sent literally hundreds and possibly thousands of cars to this "special" smog shop and for $300 they will produce me with a smog certificate. He said it benefits his performance shop to take care of his customers and get their cars on the road. And it benefits the smog shop by obtaining lots of business.
Some people who live by the letter of the law might find this all very disgusting. As for me, I believe daily commuter cars should have proper smog equipment. We all want clean air. But for the car enthusiast who wants to own a hot rod or muscle car or rare breed of car for the occasional weekend drive that doesn't intend to use the car as a daily commuter car, there should be a provision in the law to allow the car enhusiast to enjoy his car. What this performance shop is doing is what I call poetic justice.
But anyway, I want to try to register my car out of state first. That way I won't have to worry about having to smog my car every two years. I'll know by next week if I am successful.
As for the performance shop, I can't mention which one it is. The manager asked me not to mention their nefarious ways or I could blow it for everyone.
So it appears I should be able to get my '88 GT5-S registered and on the road here in Ca.
David
Some people who live by the letter of the law might find this all very disgusting. As for me, I believe daily commuter cars should have proper smog equipment. We all want clean air. But for the car enthusiast who wants to own a hot rod or muscle car or rare breed of car for the occasional weekend drive that doesn't intend to use the car as a daily commuter car, there should be a provision in the law to allow the car enhusiast to enjoy his car. What this performance shop is doing is what I call poetic justice.
But anyway, I want to try to register my car out of state first. That way I won't have to worry about having to smog my car every two years. I'll know by next week if I am successful.
As for the performance shop, I can't mention which one it is. The manager asked me not to mention their nefarious ways or I could blow it for everyone.
So it appears I should be able to get my '88 GT5-S registered and on the road here in Ca.
David
David, nice find...couldn't agree with you more!
quote:The manager asked me not to mention their nefarious ways or I could blow it for everyone.
So you mentioned it anyway... I know you didn't say the name but it isn't to hard to figure out where a performance shop is near Tujunga.
You may want to edit your post...
I can very much relate to your woes with the Cali DMV. I went through quite a few years of hell trying to find shops to "pass" a blower motor vehicle. Shops would get busted and then I'd be back to square one. Be very cautious - one shop showed me where the smog testing equipment has built in cameras for vehicle verification by the powers that be. The fines are enormous. Once that old blazer turned 25 I was able to get out of that loop and didn't have to smog again, but that was some years ago and I'm sure stuff has become even more strict. Best of luck!