Not to my knowledge.
Just a thought. If the engine is the original engine, is it possible to work backwards and cross reference the engine number to the vehicle VIN# in the Pantera registry.
Also curious if it still has the “Moteur Number” in the engine bay….
(And as of course Pantera Miami knows…) there’s also the ZF S/N stamped on the top of the transaxle!
Curious minds want to know!
It looks earlier than 4260, so that rules out about 1/2 of the cars…
Rocky
Lee and David, I don't doubt your legal facts at all. But I'm cynical about how much friction one might encounter when trying to unravel such a situation. It's really going to hinge on how savvy the victim is. How motivated are they? Do they have the force of personality to get multiple agencies to take on the issue?
Quick story- My El Camino got stolen. I promptly reported to my local police. I happened to visit the police station for an unrelated matter, where I saw on a whiteboard their list of stolen cars. My license plate was written down incorrectly, as was the model year and several details about the car's description. They were uninterested in correcting the information and suggested that I must have given them bad info in the first place. I ended up locating the car on my own, without the help of the police. When I called to let them know I found it, they flat refused to send an officer to the location. And this was a theft from a week prior, I can only imagine how they would react to a theft from 40 years ago.
Anyway, I made sure they canceled the stolen report, so I didn't get felony stopped. Not that they really would have known because they weren't looking for the right car in the first place. Then I simply drove off in the car and went home.
I just wonder if someone spends a year and a half paying a private eye or a lawyer. Shipping costs. Only to get back a beat-down shell of a car... Might be more practical to just buy a different Pantera at that point. I know it would be more satisfying and morally victorious to get the original back.
All that being said, I still would love to see this unraveled, and I don't want to discourage anyone, but I hope my experience helps to calibrate expectations.
I'll stop monopolizing the conversation so we can get back to the investigation!
Where’s Joe Friday (or at least his car) when you need him!
At least we armchair detectives solved that mystery!
Rocky
my guess, the "dealer" is now considering whether they want to commit a felony and save more hassle. As I see it, the only way the purchaser got their money back is not because the dealer thought it was the right thing to do, but because they wanted to avoid more trouble and escalation. In other words, if it weren't for the risk of the cops or notice of a civil lawsuit, the purchaser would be empty handed now.
If you saw the movie Superbad, when the "Mclovin" kid character is describing what he saw to the cop (Seth Rogen) and asks something like 'are you going to find these guys?" (and then the cop just murmurs something like, 'um, no, that never happens, but we have to fill out the form...' . I think anybody growing up in the US knows this story, who hasn't been ripped off?
Maybe the original owner had insurance, whatever rationalization or justification. But the rest of us should be pissed at this "dealer", if they do anything but start with the police, make a claim against the estate they purchased from, and then hang tight with the police to seek the opportunity to repurchase and re-title....
@Sharkey posted:Very well written counselor! He bought a car sight unseen for 49. Once I blew the whistle the Dealer in Texas said he would discount the price to $30,000 if he wants to keep the car. The buyer called me back all excited and said Shark I have to have this car! It’s a deal at 30,k. I said are you crazy? Have you gone out of your mind?? I think 15 cents is too much for that car ! Think about the probable legal ramifications. He returned the car and then received a full refund.
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Into my opinium you can always buy this car as long there is a title with the car .
at least I will do this.
when you part out this car it will bring your money back.
Simon
if you have some time you can read the full stolen story of my car (email mike and chuck)
Mux, damn interesting story, I had never considered that even during the service of a car, its tags could be taken...and after all, how many owners would have noticed? And with at least one Vin on the car, there is almost never the chance for inspection by a cop once the first title is printed.
The comment that the police were not interested to pursue the theft--this is to be expected, the statute of limitations on the theft ran out decades before. The original thief can make a movie or run for president, whatever, and not worry about being arrested. But the car remains "stolen" property of someone. Yes, there is other law that limits the time for the original owner to retrieve their property, but this timer starts after they know where it is. Law created around Nazi art recovery during the Schwarzenegger-as-governor time was because many of the victims/families were unsettled for decades....
Simon, no, just having a title in hand doesn't protect the purchaser, a stolen (something, fill in the blank) is legally called "void title" so that even a subsequent innocent purchaser becomes the next victim. Surprisingly, a co-worker lost the Mazda RX-7 he bought even when he was given a clear title (somehow the car was used by the seller to get yet another loan, the clear title he was handed that showed the lien was released wasn't the operative title...).
After giving the owner a long time to do the right thing (which he didn't do), is actually not a moral judgment, its the law--- for anyone to knowingly sell stolen property makes them (lets use a capital letter) a Criminal. This has nothing to do with doing a good deed daily, whoever has the car Here should know they have a chance of going to jail.
Actually most states have a VIN inspection requirement to title an out of state car. Nevada is pretty strict, I know of someone who purchased a restored Tiger and because the VIN plate rivets were new they refused to title it in NV.
Into the past in Europe when a car was seized by a ministry and the title was lost , the vin was cut out and when it was sold by the ministry on an auction the car was sold witout a title. ( only with BoS from ministry)
The new owner can make a choice . dismantle the car or bring it back on the road after a technical inspection and get a new (short) VIN .
Maybe this was happened with the Pantera above ?
Newer cars use a 17 caracter VIN, while older cars can use only a few, 3 or something like that.
By sample , classic cars from Texas USA has most of the time also an different VIN plate into the doorpost poprivet ( special) have notice this on a ERA Cobra , but also on Mangusta and a few others.
Simon
The VIN for my white push button Pantera was stamped in many places on the car. These stampings were in addition to the primary stamping on the pedal box. I could see the extra stampings because the car was disassembled. The car was #1313 and the numbers 313 were stamped in the center of themetal that supports the dash. They were also stamped in the doors and the headlight buckets, and perhaps other places. I think DeTomaso slowed down on the amount of stampings on the later cars. With disassembly, the actual VIN for the car might be found. The workers doing the stamping were economical and only stamped 313 instead of 1313.
These things are always messy. Its not unusual to hear of a disputed Euro serial stamping from the 60s- 80s, especially if the car has a high value. Olczack's 'DeTomaso' book verifies at least one Pantera GT-4 was factory-restamped for their own reasons, according to a highly-placed DeTomaso employee.
There was a well publicised case awhile back of TWO Lamborghinis found by the CA DMV showing identical factory serials. We won't even get into the Ford GT-40s with the same serials on multiple cars rebuilt from legitimate parts of wrecked racers. I've even heard of pre-WW2 Bugattis having the same situation.
@joules posted:Actually most states have a VIN inspection requirement to title an out of state car. Nevada is pretty strict, I know of someone who purchased a restored Tiger and because the VIN plate rivets were new they refused to title it in NV.
Had a sheriff deputy look at my car in NC. He also called out the rivets. I told him the tag had never been removed. I hadn't cut a hole in the carpet over the pedal box so he could look at that stamp but he was ok with just the VIN plate.