I DO have EFI, controlled by Haltech. Not sure if it controls timing as well though,
I think it only controls fuel.
It would be nice to just remove the springs and set the advance at full and let her rip.
II read that on cars with big cams it was common practice, and this car has a pretty big cam in it.
Not monstrous, but very big.
quote:Originally posted by mike the snake:
I DO have EFI, controlled by Haltech. Not sure if it controls timing as well though,
I think it only controls fuel.
It would be nice to just remove the springs and set the advance at full and let her rip.
II read that on cars with big cams it was common practice, and this car has a pretty big cam in it.
Not monstrous, but very big.
The point of the Haltech is to control EVERYTHING. You can even control the on/off points of the radiator fans.
If the ignition is not involved in the CPU then it is a waste of potential.
The reason that the engine is so docile at idle is likely attributable to the Haltech.
Your description of the engines characteristics are indications that Hal is right there controlling everything.
Considering everything you have gone through with this engine, if it were me, I would install a new distributor. Maybe send the existing one out to MSD to have them look at it and rebuild it but I don't see a lot of point to that?
If the new one fails at some point, which I hope it DOES NOT, you will have an ignition history pattern to follow and an extrapolation would tend to indicate to go in a different direction.
What is the compression ration of this engine? Do you know it?
I would try to download and save a copy of what is currently programmed into the CPU.
When you pull up all of the overlapping graphs it will explain to a large extent what is going on with the engine management.
You might want to ask Roger what he did with that? I doubt he was running on the "standard" program.
There had to have been a laptop computer involved in this. Those finalized tuning points for this engine were saved somewhere?
Roger told me about some secret sauce program program his buddy had given him for the Haltech, and not to mess with it. He said that was why it ran so good.
I just ordered a new disributor, not taking any chances.
I hope I don't have to change the distributor drive gear again though, that was a PITA.
Of course I'll measure things, but I hope it's a drop-in affair.
I just ordered a new disributor, not taking any chances.
I hope I don't have to change the distributor drive gear again though, that was a PITA.
Of course I'll measure things, but I hope it's a drop-in affair.
quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:quote:Originally posted by mike the snake:
I DO have EFI, controlled by Haltech. Not sure if it controls timing as well though,
I think it only controls fuel.
It would be nice to just remove the springs and set the advance at full and let her rip.
II read that on cars with big cams it was common practice, and this car has a pretty big cam in it.
Not monstrous, but very big.
The point of the Haltech is to control EVERYTHING. You can even control the on/off points of the radiator fans.
If the ignition is not involved in the CPU then it is a waste of potential.
The reason that the engine is so docile at idle is likely attributable to the Haltech.
Your description of the engines characteristics are indications that Hal is right there controlling everything.
Considering everything you have gone through with this engine, if it were me, I would install a new distributor. Maybe send the existing one out to MSD to have them look at it and rebuild it but I don't see a lot of point to that?
If the new one fails at some point, which I hope it DOES NOT, you will have an ignition history pattern to follow and an extrapolation would tend to indicate to go in a different direction.
What is the compression ration of this engine? Do you know it?
I would try to download and save a copy of what is currently programmed into the CPU.
When you pull up all of the overlapping graphs it will explain to a large extent what is going on with the engine management.
You might want to ask Roger what he did with that? I doubt he was running on the "standard" program.
There had to have been a laptop computer involved in this. Those finalized tuning points for this engine were saved somewhere?
It's probably a copy of an extensive custom made program from another very similar spec engine.
I would say leave it alone, sure, but at some point in the future you are going to need a copy of the original in there now.
If it was me, I'd want a copy of it.
Even if you are looking at it and have some experience with these programs it will take a while to understand what you are looking at.
Having it as it is now is similar to having a restore point in your pc.
You have something to fall back on.
I would say leave it alone, sure, but at some point in the future you are going to need a copy of the original in there now.
If it was me, I'd want a copy of it.
Even if you are looking at it and have some experience with these programs it will take a while to understand what you are looking at.
Having it as it is now is similar to having a restore point in your pc.
You have something to fall back on.
The program as I said Roger told me was a custom one his friend made for him, and that's why the engine ran so well.
He has told me he's now busy and won't be available as a resource, so I'm on my own at this point.
I don't know enough about the Haltech, but the Haltech and ignition systems looked to me to be separate, but it could be a simple wire that mkes that true or not. I haven't checked.
I just keep finding more and more stuff about this car that needs service/replacing, I'm trying to get it back into running condition. Then I can work on fine tuning (although it ran sweet) and I have a good tuner who knows Haltech, so when that time comes I can have him take a look at things.
To add to everything that's going on right now, (car, injury, finances, being disabled from surgery) I just was told this morning my Father has cancer, no details yet, but it's serious.
When it rains, it pours, right?
It will be really good to get the car back running so I can at least get that behind me. I'm on the verge of a breakdown.
He has told me he's now busy and won't be available as a resource, so I'm on my own at this point.
I don't know enough about the Haltech, but the Haltech and ignition systems looked to me to be separate, but it could be a simple wire that mkes that true or not. I haven't checked.
I just keep finding more and more stuff about this car that needs service/replacing, I'm trying to get it back into running condition. Then I can work on fine tuning (although it ran sweet) and I have a good tuner who knows Haltech, so when that time comes I can have him take a look at things.
To add to everything that's going on right now, (car, injury, finances, being disabled from surgery) I just was told this morning my Father has cancer, no details yet, but it's serious.
When it rains, it pours, right?
It will be really good to get the car back running so I can at least get that behind me. I'm on the verge of a breakdown.
If it is a Haltech, most systems give you the ability to connect a laptop and upload from the Haltech EMC the current tune. That current tune is likely what roger is calling the secret sauce.
I highly doubt he has custom software in a factory Haltech EMC.
This is simple to figure out.
1. Find the model of Haltech EMC.
2. Download the software for that model.
3. Load software on laptop.
4. Connect laptop to Haltech EMC.
5. Upload current EMC mapping (ie:"the secret sauce")
For someone to tell you it is custom and to leave it alone is, IMO, stupid. You should know how everything in your car works. There is NO MAGIC in there. Sounds like Roger has been less than helpful and continues to be that way. Sorry for friends of Roger but he is not someone I would have wanted to buy a car from.
Not to worry, it is no magic. Haltech EMC's have been around a long time and are typically very easy to work with.
To Doug's point, you NEED to save the tune so that if anything goes wrong with the EMC in the future, you can get another one and reload the tune and then you are back on the road, with the same tune!
Scott
I highly doubt he has custom software in a factory Haltech EMC.
This is simple to figure out.
1. Find the model of Haltech EMC.
2. Download the software for that model.
3. Load software on laptop.
4. Connect laptop to Haltech EMC.
5. Upload current EMC mapping (ie:"the secret sauce")
For someone to tell you it is custom and to leave it alone is, IMO, stupid. You should know how everything in your car works. There is NO MAGIC in there. Sounds like Roger has been less than helpful and continues to be that way. Sorry for friends of Roger but he is not someone I would have wanted to buy a car from.
Not to worry, it is no magic. Haltech EMC's have been around a long time and are typically very easy to work with.
To Doug's point, you NEED to save the tune so that if anything goes wrong with the EMC in the future, you can get another one and reload the tune and then you are back on the road, with the same tune!
Scott
It's actually ironic in a sense that the correct program is so critical to IR FI and the Webers don't care.
Chris I think it is the ignition curve that is in the engine now and an electronic distributor that are calming this beast.
The fuel curve is just going to keep the a/f ration optimized.
I remember the days of just two parameters for FI. Oxygen sensor and throttle position.
I personally would not presume that someone did not tweak the program for that cam and compression ratio on pump gas...although I would NOT argue vehemently against that comment that it is the current standard default.
It's true that the "default" settings on everything have become more sophisticated and you can always pick up last years ECU on ebay as soon as the new models are available.
I wouldn't be good enough to write the ignition curve anyway. I would be trying to fix points in the curve that are not fixable necessarily.
Chris I think it is the ignition curve that is in the engine now and an electronic distributor that are calming this beast.
The fuel curve is just going to keep the a/f ration optimized.
I remember the days of just two parameters for FI. Oxygen sensor and throttle position.
I personally would not presume that someone did not tweak the program for that cam and compression ratio on pump gas...although I would NOT argue vehemently against that comment that it is the current standard default.
It's true that the "default" settings on everything have become more sophisticated and you can always pick up last years ECU on ebay as soon as the new models are available.
I wouldn't be good enough to write the ignition curve anyway. I would be trying to fix points in the curve that are not fixable necessarily.
Your Haltech ECU program is (or was) a highly customized version from Kirby Schrader in TX, off his street/roadrace Pantera. Over 10 yrs, it may have been further modified by someone in CA. Call Kirby for details- he's still running the same setup.
The Haltech EMC have 2 software components.
The program that makes them work... IE: Like the OS of your computer.
And the programed TUNE. The TUNE is what most people customize.
Also, you can buy Haltech EMC's that control ignition, fuel delivery or both. It would not be unusual if you had a unit that only controls fuel delivery.
Again, not hard to figure out. So again, is the customization the program that runs in the Haltech or the TUNE that is customer programmable?
The program that makes them work... IE: Like the OS of your computer.
And the programed TUNE. The TUNE is what most people customize.
Also, you can buy Haltech EMC's that control ignition, fuel delivery or both. It would not be unusual if you had a unit that only controls fuel delivery.
Again, not hard to figure out. So again, is the customization the program that runs in the Haltech or the TUNE that is customer programmable?
I agree with you on a number of points.
I was told many things about the car that just were not true, or important facts were omitted, important things.
I've kept my personal feelings out of this discussion because right now, I have a LOT of personal feelings that I'd like to express, but instead, I'm stuck with what I have, so I'm just going to move forward, fix the car, and next year I'll go through everything myself. Then nothing will be based on what I've been told, it will be fact, and true.
By chronicling what has happened to the car, I've devalued it now that everything is known about the condition the car was sold to me in. I plan to make everything like new, so I can enjoy the car with confidence, and if I ever decide to sell the car, I'll be able to give them a true, honest history of the condition of the engine and gearbox.
The gearbox shifts and feels great, although I did find bits stuck to the magnetic fill plug (neither the engine, nor the gearbox had magnetic drain plugs. The box had a magnetic filler plug only), but I suspect those aren't anything that affects the performance of the gearbox at this time. Small bits I think are to be expected in a gearbox, especially one that's been driven hard.
Next year, both engine and box will have been gone through, the rest of the car is sweeter than sweet, so I'll have what I originally wanted. It's just when I bought the car, it was insinuated that none of that needed to be done, and all was fine. "ticking time bomb" is a good description of what I bought.
I know, "race motor-expect race breakage", so that's where things sit right now.
The car will be back running very soon.
I've ordered a new distributor, and if the car runs as it did before, I plan to run and enjoy it.
I have a tuner who is familiar with Haltech and can make changes if necessary. I will definitely save the existing program.
I personally don't know enough about "tuning" with the laptop to understand, or make changes, so my plan is to leave things alone as long as the car runs well.
My plan WAS to learn everything about my car as I went along, owning and maintaining it. I did not expect or plan on getting this deep into "knowing" everything about my car in this manner.
I was told many things about the car that just were not true, or important facts were omitted, important things.
I've kept my personal feelings out of this discussion because right now, I have a LOT of personal feelings that I'd like to express, but instead, I'm stuck with what I have, so I'm just going to move forward, fix the car, and next year I'll go through everything myself. Then nothing will be based on what I've been told, it will be fact, and true.
By chronicling what has happened to the car, I've devalued it now that everything is known about the condition the car was sold to me in. I plan to make everything like new, so I can enjoy the car with confidence, and if I ever decide to sell the car, I'll be able to give them a true, honest history of the condition of the engine and gearbox.
The gearbox shifts and feels great, although I did find bits stuck to the magnetic fill plug (neither the engine, nor the gearbox had magnetic drain plugs. The box had a magnetic filler plug only), but I suspect those aren't anything that affects the performance of the gearbox at this time. Small bits I think are to be expected in a gearbox, especially one that's been driven hard.
Next year, both engine and box will have been gone through, the rest of the car is sweeter than sweet, so I'll have what I originally wanted. It's just when I bought the car, it was insinuated that none of that needed to be done, and all was fine. "ticking time bomb" is a good description of what I bought.
I know, "race motor-expect race breakage", so that's where things sit right now.
The car will be back running very soon.
I've ordered a new distributor, and if the car runs as it did before, I plan to run and enjoy it.
I have a tuner who is familiar with Haltech and can make changes if necessary. I will definitely save the existing program.
I personally don't know enough about "tuning" with the laptop to understand, or make changes, so my plan is to leave things alone as long as the car runs well.
My plan WAS to learn everything about my car as I went along, owning and maintaining it. I did not expect or plan on getting this deep into "knowing" everything about my car in this manner.
quote:Originally posted by ZR1 Pantera:
If it is a Haltech, most systems give you the ability to connect a laptop and upload from the Haltech EMC the current tune. That current tune is likely what roger is calling the secret sauce.
I highly doubt he has custom software in a factory Haltech EMC.
This is simple to figure out.
1. Find the model of Haltech EMC.
2. Download the software for that model.
3. Load software on laptop.
4. Connect laptop to Haltech EMC.
5. Upload current EMC mapping (ie:"the secret sauce")
For someone to tell you it is custom and to leave it alone is, IMO, stupid. You should know how everything in your car works. There is NO MAGIC in there. Sounds like Roger has been less than helpful and continues to be that way. Sorry for friends of Roger but he is not someone I would have wanted to buy a car from.
Not to worry, it is no magic. Haltech EMC's have been around a long time and are typically very easy to work with.
To Doug's point, you NEED to save the tune so that if anything goes wrong with the EMC in the future, you can get another one and reload the tune and then you are back on the road, with the same tune!
Scott
Im not sure if it has been said but if the ignition is in fact controlled by the Haltech (there is a good chance of this) it is IMPERATIVE that the ignition timing be reset properly which requires connecting a laptop to the Haltech and turning on some settings. The distributor will also have the vacuum advance locked out as the Haltech controls this. These are great systems and is what I was running on my car with the old motor.
The distributor is mechanical advance. No vacum advance.
Mike I think you said you had 80psi oil pressure at idle. That sounds too high and could cause problems with cold starts where a lot of engine wear occurs + oil pump drag. Thicker oil is not necessarily better, it depends on tolerances used during the engine build and its age.
For example.. http://www.onallcylinders.com/...-myths-theyre-false/
For example.. http://www.onallcylinders.com/...-myths-theyre-false/
I agree, 80lbs cold idle pressure sounds pretty high to me.
That's what the car has though.
Here's the oil pressure rundown, when I had the car running at oil temps above 200.
Cold idle pressure 80lbs
Idle pressure 30lbs at 200 degrees
Pressure at 200-2500rpms 70-80lbs
Cold idle pressure 80lbs.
This why I thought maybe dropping a weight to 10-40 from 20-50 might be OK.
I've always gone by the 10 lbs per 1000 rpm rule, and my engine was definitely running higher than that.
That's what the car has though.
Here's the oil pressure rundown, when I had the car running at oil temps above 200.
Cold idle pressure 80lbs
Idle pressure 30lbs at 200 degrees
Pressure at 200-2500rpms 70-80lbs
Cold idle pressure 80lbs.
This why I thought maybe dropping a weight to 10-40 from 20-50 might be OK.
I've always gone by the 10 lbs per 1000 rpm rule, and my engine was definitely running higher than that.
If the Haltech controls the timing all advance will be locked out at the distributor including mechanical. The Haltech can not directly control the coil either. It will have to have some sort of ignitor (msd box or similar) so removing the MSD could cause failure in the ECU if you do not replace it with another ignitor.
quote:By chronicling what has happened to the car, I've devalued it now that everything is known about the condition the car was sold to me in.
On the contrary, you've increased the car's value because everyone now knows the complete state of the engine with certainty and confidence, and things look good. A well documented sorted car is always worth more.
quote:neither the engine, nor the gearbox had magnetic drain plugs. The box had a magnetic filler plug only
Swap the fill and drain plugs to put the magnetic plug in the bottom of the ZF case. If I recall correctly, they're the same thread size and interchangeable.
quote:The car will be back running very soon.
It will, and then you'll drive the wheels off it! Most likely, there will be no need to pull anything apart next year for rebuild. Get it back on the road and DRIVE IT! If or when something breaks, pull it apart, but otherwise keep driving it!
quote:My plan WAS to learn everything about my car as I went along, owning and maintaining it. I did not expect or plan on getting this deep into "knowing" everything about my car in this manner.
Yup! I had hoped to drive the wheels off of my car for 5 years before getting into the engine. Almost made it to 5 years, but spun a rod bearing. There were other fixes along the way, but it's part of the adventure of owning and driving a 40 year old car. Snow White is like a smoking hot divorced 43 year old MILF - she come's with baggage... But she's worth it!
Very soon you'll be back in the saddle and the last couple weeks will just seem like a bad dream. Hang in there Mike.
quote:I agree, 80lbs cold idle pressure sounds pretty high to me.
That's what the car has though.
Was that with the old high volume oil pump, or the new standard volume pump?
The old pump was a stock pump just like the one I am installing. I'm replacing with the exact same part.
Not high volume, Not high pressure. Bone stock pump
Not high volume, Not high pressure. Bone stock pump
In MY EXPERIENCE 80 # cold is normal with oiling modifications to the block. As the oil warms up it will drop down to something like 25 to 30.
With an engine like this that's what you want. You have all sorts of valve train components that require oiling for any kind of longevity.
If that breaks the drive pin in the distributor then declare it a piece of junk and find a distributor that is made for this OR completely get out of any kind of a performance car and take up roller blading.
You guys sound like a bunch of old ladies and sound like you are affraid of your own shaddows?
Grow a pair?
With an engine like this that's what you want. You have all sorts of valve train components that require oiling for any kind of longevity.
If that breaks the drive pin in the distributor then declare it a piece of junk and find a distributor that is made for this OR completely get out of any kind of a performance car and take up roller blading.
You guys sound like a bunch of old ladies and sound like you are affraid of your own shaddows?
Grow a pair?
My Subaru had 120-plus pounds cold idle pressure.
My engine, with 80 lbs cold idle pressure and 30+ at idle I was fine with. At crising speeds on freeway (2000-2500 rpm) the gauge showed 70-plus lbs, and I had no problems with those numbers at all.
My drive pin is extra beefy and doesn't twist, it shears pins.
Since I have installed the finer mesh screen on my pickup though, I was considering dropping a weight (from 20-50 to 10-40) and that seemed like an OK thing to do since my pressures were as high as they were when I had the 20-50 in it.
Granted, I have maybe a couple hours of experience driving this engine before the pump failure.
To start with though, I'm going to put the 20-50 back in, just the way it was before, and I think my screen mesh mod to the pickup should work just fine.
The guy I talked with at Aviad said IF there were to be any problems,it would be when the engine is cold, not hot, which indicates to me it is just very important to warm the engine oil up before running the engine hard at higher rpm's.
My engine, with 80 lbs cold idle pressure and 30+ at idle I was fine with. At crising speeds on freeway (2000-2500 rpm) the gauge showed 70-plus lbs, and I had no problems with those numbers at all.
My drive pin is extra beefy and doesn't twist, it shears pins.
Since I have installed the finer mesh screen on my pickup though, I was considering dropping a weight (from 20-50 to 10-40) and that seemed like an OK thing to do since my pressures were as high as they were when I had the 20-50 in it.
Granted, I have maybe a couple hours of experience driving this engine before the pump failure.
To start with though, I'm going to put the 20-50 back in, just the way it was before, and I think my screen mesh mod to the pickup should work just fine.
The guy I talked with at Aviad said IF there were to be any problems,it would be when the engine is cold, not hot, which indicates to me it is just very important to warm the engine oil up before running the engine hard at higher rpm's.
quote:Originally posted by mike the snake:
Since I have installed the finer mesh screen on my pickup though, I was considering dropping a weight (from 20-50 to 10-40) and that seemed like an OK thing to do since my pressures were as high as they were when I had the 20-50 in it.
The guy I talked with at Aviad said IF there were to be any problems,it would be when the engine is cold, not hot, which indicates to me it is just very important to warm the engine oil up before running the engine hard at higher rpm's.
First off the NEED for any engine NEEDING a 50 weight oil is BS. All any of them need is 30.
The final weight of any engine is going to be determined by the bearing clearances on the crankshaft.
50 weight would be for something like a .035+ clearance.
Everyone is building these engines tighter now. .015 to .020 is what I would expect to see. MAYBE .025 and use 40 weight?
EXACTLY WHERE that 20-50 number came from out of Ford engineering, no one seems to know but likely it was some sort of a "panic attack" that one of the Ford Engineers had when he saw a couple of bearing failures on the Phoenix test cars just before production started of the Boss 351.
Oil temps: exactly right. ANY "performance engine" should be at "operating temperatures" and that is THE OIL TEMPERATURE.
For oil, try 210 to 220 would be just about right. Everyone over cools the Hell out of their oil.
With the 10 quart Aviad pan alone it takes some doing to get this thing hot. With an oil cooler you had better have at least a 200 degree thermostat in there for the oil. 210 would be better.
I can't believe how many people are using the old "standard" Mocals that open at 180. Needless to say that is WAY too low.
They aren't even boiling out the moisture in the oil that is creating the sludge they see in their oil changes.
Many NASCAR cars and Pro Stock drag cars as well as others are using oil HEATERS.
In a car like yours AND mine, I would expect a couple of warm up laps on the track to get the car to operating temps.
In a cold winter climate like I am here in NY, I just park the car until May usually, sometimes April. Getting the engine to "operating temps" (oil temps) is hopeless under these winter conditions. I would need a heater to do that.
In searching to get a PCV valve system operating correctly with the individual runner manifold and Weber carbs, I purely by accident discovered that I pick up around 2 to 2.5 inches of vacuum at about 200 degrees oil temps.
I did not expect to see that and am wonder if I knew that but had just forgotten it?
The 427 Fords ran 100 psi for "performance" back in the day. 10 psi in those at idle means you need a rebuild.
The 289-302 Fords run the same roll pin and about 85 psi cold. I am sure people have broken those pins but I've never heard of one in that engine series personally, and the ONLY ones I have heard of in the Cleveland are either a Ford distributor that is not original and has been "rebuilt" by someone after Ford OR AFTERMARKET.
The other thing people are seeing with oil pressure variations is that high performance engines kill the actual viscosity of the oil.
I have only experience with one BB Chevy Pro Stock car but it would leave the line with 100 psi and come back into the pits with 10 psi. Reason. It just beat the heck out of the oil in only 1/4 mile.
The adage about 10 psi for every 1,000 rpm is a good guide. I personally though get VERY nervous at anything under 15psi. There are just so many things that could have gone wrong in the engine that created that.
Hallucinations? Maybe? I try to hallucinate about the Playmate of the Year though. It's more of a rewarding "trip".
quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
.. for something like a .035+ clearance.
Everyone is building these engines tighter now. .015 to .020 is what I would expect to see. MAYBE .025 ...
please excuse my ignorance. are those clearnances in mm?
quote:Originally posted by JFB #05177:quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
.. for something like a .035+ clearance.
Everyone is building these engines tighter now. .015 to .020 is what I would expect to see. MAYBE .025 ...
please excuse my ignorance. are those clearnances in mm?
Inches. They are so small that you need to measure them with Plastic-gauge.
You place the plastic-gauge under the bearing, torque the cap, then take it off and compare the squashed material to a paper chart that the stuff comes wrapped in.
If you read some old (1970 +/-) magazine articles about building race engines, you might see recommendations of .035" clearances on the main bearings.
There you need a thick single grade oil. Maybe a 50 weight?
Those measurements are in Thousands of an inch, unless it's Doug's motor then it's in "mm", Doug like his motor like he likes his women "loose & sloppy"quote:Originally posted by JFB #05177:quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
.. for something like a .035+ clearance.
Everyone is building these engines tighter now. .015 to .020 is what I would expect to see. MAYBE .025 ...
please excuse my ignorance. are those clearnances in mm?
...Markquote:Originally posted by 1Rocketship:Those measurements are in Thousands of an inch, unless it's Doug's motor then it's in "mm", Doug like his motor like he likes his women "loose & sloppy"quote:Originally posted by JFB #05177:quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
.. for something like a .035+ clearance.
Everyone is building these engines tighter now. .015 to .020 is what I would expect to see. MAYBE .025 ...
please excuse my ignorance. are those clearnances in mm?
Not so, on "loose and sloppy" but when you said MM I immediately thought of Marilyn. I'll make an exception every time there and hope that she will be the ghost of Christmas Future that visits me?
Oh a great fantasy there.
Tall, tight and leggy with that great high rpm "whine" is my preference.
quote:Originally posted by JFB #05177:quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
.. for something like a .035+ clearance.
Everyone is building these engines tighter now. .015 to .020 is what I would expect to see. MAYBE .025 ...
please excuse my ignorance. are those clearnances in mm?
If it's referencing journal to bearing clearances in inches there's another (forgotten?) zero needed to the right of the decimal. K
Because your "My Pal"...This is just for you Doug!...make sure to have the Jergens & Tissues READY!...Photo number "2" gets the "lead in my pencil"!!!...NO phone calls for the next hour, as I'll be "busy"!...Markquote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:quote:Originally posted by 1Rocketship:Those measurements are in Thousands of an inch, unless it's Doug's motor then it's in "mm", Doug like his motor like he likes his women "loose & sloppy"quote:Originally posted by JFB #05177:quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
.. for something like a .035+ clearance.
Everyone is building these engines tighter now. .015 to .020 is what I would expect to see. MAYBE .025 ...
please excuse my ignorance. are those clearnances in mm?
Not so, on "loose and sloppy" but when you said MM I immediately thought of Marilyn. I'll make an exception every time there and hope that she will be the ghost of Christmas Future that visits me?
Oh a great fantasy there.
Tall, tight and leggy with that great high rpm "whine" is my preference.
http://www.ranker.com/list/hot...mat=SLIDESHOW&page=2
quote:Originally posted by Panterror:quote:Originally posted by JFB #05177:quote:Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
.. for something like a .035+ clearance.
Everyone is building these engines tighter now. .015 to .020 is what I would expect to see. MAYBE .025 ...
please excuse my ignorance. are those clearnances in mm?
If it's referencing journal to bearing clearances in inches there's another (forgotten?) zero needed to the right of the decimal. K
OOPS! MM makes it difficult to concentrate on.
I have assembled bearings that required 0.035" vertical clearance and even greater, but the journel diameters were 24" (and greater). they do make plastic gauge that size, but NAPA thinks you are crazy and don't carry it. for 0.035" clearance checks, I would prefer 6 amp fuse wire or three twist of 1 amp
funny story about plastic guage. checking small drive bearings that should have been 0.003". I noticed the new guy with the wrapper referance was going "its not 0.002, and its not 0.004" over and over. So I asked him why he didn't call it 0.003". he replied the plastic gauge was still red and to be 0.003" it needs to turn white.
funny story about plastic guage. checking small drive bearings that should have been 0.003". I noticed the new guy with the wrapper referance was going "its not 0.002, and its not 0.004" over and over. So I asked him why he didn't call it 0.003". he replied the plastic gauge was still red and to be 0.003" it needs to turn white.
quote:Originally posted by JFB #05177:
I have assembled bearings that required 0.035" vertical clearance and even greater, but the journel diameters were 24" (and greater). they do make plastic gauge that size, but NAPA thinks you are crazy and don't carry it. for 0.035" clearance checks, I would prefer 6 amp fuse wire or three twist of 1 amp
funny story about plastic guage. checking small drive bearings that should have been 0.003". I noticed the new guy with the wrapper referance was going "its not 0.002, and its not 0.004" over and over. So I asked him why he didn't call it 0.003". he replied the plastic gauge was still red and to be 0.003" it needs to turn white.
Yes, Kerry is correct, the decimal point is off by 10 in my post. .0035" is a lot of clearance on a main bearing but used for a time in competition engines.
I'd have to look at my assembly notes but the last two engines I did were .0015" (347) and .0020 (351c).
That is the thickness of the film of oil that the crankshaft is running on. Viscosity would be determined from those clearances for a specific film strength (not MM film strength Mark
)
I do not use plastigauge. I measure the inside diameter with a bore indicator and the journal with a micrometer then subtract one from the other. This is done for each journal in at least two places. The seam of the bearings are always a little bigger. Measure twice cut once so to speak.
quote:Originally posted by ItalFord:
I do not use plastigauge. I measure the inside diameter with a bore indicator and the journal with a micrometer then subtract one from the other. This is done for each journal in at least two places. The seam of the bearings are always a little bigger. Measure twice cut once so to speak.
Good God, you and i must be the last of the Mohicans.
I have a machinist friend that works in the aerospace industry he taught me how. When I first told him that I was going to use plastigauge he laughed and then went on to explain that plastigauge is not as accurate.
Ah that explains it, i'm a machinist also...
I'm hoping to not sue either of those tools on my engine until next year when I go through everything.
Until then, I'm hoping it all holds together and runs fine until then.
I've taken every precaution I can think of.
Until then, I'm hoping it all holds together and runs fine until then.
I've taken every precaution I can think of.
Mike, Please don't take offense but I simply must say this.
I do not understand what your obsession is with tearing down the engine and ZF "next year" for a complete rebuild? Your current engine has very low miles on it. If you dodged this bullet and the the engine runs well and the ZF shifts like butter forget about it. Enjoy driving the car.
If the engine starts making funny noises (rod knock etc) smokes or refuses to run then yes yank it out. Until then DON'T WORRY....
I do not understand what your obsession is with tearing down the engine and ZF "next year" for a complete rebuild? Your current engine has very low miles on it. If you dodged this bullet and the the engine runs well and the ZF shifts like butter forget about it. Enjoy driving the car.
If the engine starts making funny noises (rod knock etc) smokes or refuses to run then yes yank it out. Until then DON'T WORRY....
right !
try it and maybe rebuild it
try it and maybe rebuild it
Agree with ItalFord 100%!, especially in regards to the ZF!.quote:Originally posted by ItalFord:
Mike, Please don't take offense but I simply must say this.
I do not understand what your obsession is with tearing down the engine and ZF "next year" for a complete rebuild? Your current engine has very low miles on it. If you dodged this bullet and the the engine runs well and the ZF shifts like butter forget about it. Enjoy driving the car.
If the engine starts making funny noises (rod knock etc) smokes or refuses to run then yes yank it out. Until then DON'T WORRY....
There are many parts in a V8, you Mike had the misfortune of a previous mishap leaving metal particles floating in the engine.
NOW you have corrected that problem!, your engine & transmission should operate to the same level of performance & satisfaction you ENJOYED, prior to the oil pump seizure.
Follow the time tested adage..."Leave Well Enough Alone"!....DAMN!...I feel like Dr.Phil!...I need a shower & some M.M. pictures!...Mark
You gentlemen are correct.
It's just for me, in my head, I bought what was supposed to be something that it wasn't.
I DO plan on enjoying the car and driving it once it's back together.
It's just that I now know these things about the car, and I'll feel better when I've gone through the engine and box, and have a "fresh start" if you want to call it that.
Believe me, when this engine starts,I'm going to go out and put it through it's paces, make sure it's still a solid runner, and then I'll drive and enjoy the car.
I bought a jewel of a car, and a jewel of an engine. I need to know that these both are as they should be. Since I was sold an engine that has had previous failures, with lots of steel bits runing through it, I think the right thing to do is to eventually go through the engine and confirm all is well.
The gearbox works fine, so I'll probably leave it alone unless I have an issue with it.
But when it comes time to go through everything, I'll be going through the box as well, so it's all new and fresh.
Then, if I decide to ever sell the car, I won't have to disclose anything, I'll be able to look the buyer straight in the face, and say "it's a low miles engine, never had any problems, should last a long time, runs perfect", just as I was told when I bought the car.
It's just for me, in my head, I bought what was supposed to be something that it wasn't.
I DO plan on enjoying the car and driving it once it's back together.
It's just that I now know these things about the car, and I'll feel better when I've gone through the engine and box, and have a "fresh start" if you want to call it that.
Believe me, when this engine starts,I'm going to go out and put it through it's paces, make sure it's still a solid runner, and then I'll drive and enjoy the car.
I bought a jewel of a car, and a jewel of an engine. I need to know that these both are as they should be. Since I was sold an engine that has had previous failures, with lots of steel bits runing through it, I think the right thing to do is to eventually go through the engine and confirm all is well.
The gearbox works fine, so I'll probably leave it alone unless I have an issue with it.
But when it comes time to go through everything, I'll be going through the box as well, so it's all new and fresh.
Then, if I decide to ever sell the car, I won't have to disclose anything, I'll be able to look the buyer straight in the face, and say "it's a low miles engine, never had any problems, should last a long time, runs perfect", just as I was told when I bought the car.
Wait until you get your bill for rebuilding the ZF LOL that will change your mind in a hurry. BTW the engine is no cheap fix either. I believe I have $8,000 in the engine and I did all the work besides the actual machine work.
Sounds like you are a bit obsessed with it right now. Lets some time pass and maybe some of the OCD will wear off.
Good Luck Dr. Phil LMAO
Sounds like you are a bit obsessed with it right now. Lets some time pass and maybe some of the OCD will wear off.
Good Luck Dr. Phil LMAO
There isn't really anything to disclose. It was a minor mishap and if I was buying the car and you told me what happened, I'd be satisfied with that.
It isn't just you at all. There seems to be this prevailing societal mentality that nothing is any good unless it is virginal?
I don't know where that comes from? Mid-evil times? Certainly not from me.
Warm up Snow White really well, hold on tight, take her for a ride. Drive it like you hate it and never look back. What happened is just water under the bridge, a few drops of oil on your face and just another chapter in your book. So what?
Your grand kids will love it. They probably would never have realized you were such a colorful character AND THEY have your genes too?
It isn't just you at all. There seems to be this prevailing societal mentality that nothing is any good unless it is virginal?
I don't know where that comes from? Mid-evil times? Certainly not from me.
Warm up Snow White really well, hold on tight, take her for a ride. Drive it like you hate it and never look back. What happened is just water under the bridge, a few drops of oil on your face and just another chapter in your book. So what?
Your grand kids will love it. They probably would never have realized you were such a colorful character AND THEY have your genes too?